Eliyahu ben David

[Cole Thompson]

Did you ever find your answers ? I see yoru post is from april of 2011. I've listened to many of Eliyahu's programs and know that he discussed some of his personal history there. About his super cleaning business and how YHWH gave him his new name and how he discovered from his Aunt or some other relative that his family is Jewish. I don't recall how he discovered he was from the house of David, perhaps YHWH told him that too. But anyways, if you go through the programs, you will find it there.

 

[Cole Thompson]

Apparently he currently has but one wife, but I think he still does believe in polygamy. You don't have to have more than one wife to be a polygamist do you ?

 

[rsduncan]

Red flags? More like flashing lights and a pulsating klaxon blaring.

Star Trek Red Alert Screen - YouTube

...

 

[Cole Thompson]

Unfortunately, Child Protective Services is not always our best friend !

 

[truthckr]

truthckr, be honest. If you never meant anything said about Eliyahu as a personal attack, then why have you personally withdrawn your support of Tsiyon? What exactly is it you think Eliyahu has failed to do ? He has made public his belief in polygamy, even providing the two books for free to support this view. Most importantly though, he said that YHWH told him to marry his second wife. So what are we to do with that ?

Why is withdrawing support of a man who personally lied to me, personally withheld information from me and now teaches falsely thought of as a personal attack? I believe that I have been the one who has been personally attacked in this situation. Are you telling me that you would maintain a business relationship with a partner who was stealing from your business? I don't think so, and neither can I support a man who will not be honest and teach the truth to his followers.

I also wish to state for the record that polygamy is NOT the issue here. Yes, he made public his belief, but at the same time, he also did it without confessing he was Steve Butt and that he was leader of the Be Free Church Ministry. My question is why not share this information? This is critical information for his followers to know in light of what he is teaching. Many of his followers do not have internet access and simply hear his program on the radio. All they know is what he tells them on the radio and they do not have this information we have on this forum. They are still uninformed of this key information about him which may be important for them to make a proper decision. In my mind, the issue is that this man attempted to hide his past and is still continuing to do so in whatever manner he can get away with.

Yes, he said that YHWH told him to marry his second wife, but is that true just because he made that statement? There have been times in my life that I felt YHWH told me to do something only to find out I was terribly wrong because I had not sought proper counsel. As far as your question "what are we to do with that?", the Scriptures clearly teaches in Matt 7:16 to 20 - you shall know them by their fruit.

 

[truthckr]

If YHWH gave you a new name, and you went by it..especially in your ministry, how would you deal with those who seemed obsessed with knowing all about your previous relationships and your birth name and the names of those you were in relationships with ? Or what if you were divorced and YHWH still in His mercy found some use for you to minister to others and those others were obsessed with wanting to know who your ex was, what her name was and why you were divorced and what all the juicy details were in the problems in your relationship...how would you deal with it ?

Please, common sense tells you that when you change your name you obviously had a previous one. As one who was personally involved with this man, no one was asking him to disclose every little detail about his past, but to simply be honest about his true identity. Luke 12:2 & 3 state that YHWH does not allow anything to be kept in secret. As one who took the "mantle" of his position, he DID have an obligation to his followers to reveal the basics about his path and what he has been teaching. Again, the whole issue here is not whether he taught polygamy but whether he could be open and honest with his followers.

This is the whole reason this aspect of the forum started if you start from page 1. There were/are believers out here who wanted to believe in his teachings and had a simple question about his real name and some basic credentials. All that he needed to reveal was that he was Steve Butt and he use to teach polygamy. I know for myself, that would have been sufficient. I could have made some clear decisions from there (before I ever became part of Tsiyon) as to how I wanted to support the ministry. I was NEVER given that opportunity.

 

[truthckr]

So, his first two wives left him. That's all we know about it. You mentioned "the failure of his personal attempt at having a polygamist family". What information do you have to prove that Steven Butt aka Eliyahu ben David, "failed" ? What a thing to say ! So if your wife leaves you for whatever reasons, does that automatically mean that YOU failed ? It's always the guys fault right ? Maybe they are the ones that failed. Realistically, it is usually both partners who fall short of making a happy marriage, even in a monogomistic marriage. There sure are a lot of assumptions going on here.

Mr Thompson, no, there is further information that has been submitted to me and to others testifying as to what happen and why his previous wives left him. It is not the purpose of this forum or myself to reveal or discuss that information. I am in agreement that there are two sides to every story. What is factual (and stated by Steve) is that his previous wives left him. If polygamy is of YHWH and Steve is their covering, why would they leave him? Again, I am in agreement that either party could be to blame or both. What is not an assumption is that the relationships he had with his previous wives failed, regardless who was at fault. It failed simply because the marriages did not continue. I know that in the relationship with my wife, divorce or separation are NOT options. We have a beautiful and happy marriage because my wife and I hold to the commitment we made to YHWH in our biblical marriage. Our marriage is based on YHWH and our commitment to be ONE in Him.

 

[yedida]

Why is withdrawing support of a man who personally lied to me, personally withheld information from me and now teaches falsely thought of as a personal attack? I believe that I have been the one who has been personally attacked in this situation. Are you telling me that you would maintain a business relationship with a partner who was stealing from your business? I don't think so, and neither can I support a man who will not be honest and teach the truth to his followers.

I also wish to state for the record that polygamy is NOT the issue here. Yes, he made public his belief, but at the same time, he also did it without confessing he was Steve Butt and that he was leader of the Be Free Church Ministry. My question is why not share this information? This is critical information for his followers to know in light of what he is teaching. Many of his followers do not have internet access and simply hear his program on the radio. All they know is what he tells them on the radio and they do not have this information we have on this forum. They are still uninformed of this key information about him which may be important for them to make a proper decision. In my mind, the issue is that this man attempted to hide his past and is still continuing to do so in whatever manner he can get away with.

Yes, he said that YHWH told him to marry his second wife, but is that true just because he made that statement? There have been times in my life that I felt YHWH told me to do something only to find out I was terribly wrong because I had not sought proper counsel. As far as your question "what are we to do with that?", the Scriptures clearly teaches in Matt 7:16 to 20 - you shall know them by their fruit.

You go brother. Sounds like finally you're moving in a productive direction. Blessing and prayers go with you as you find your way on your journey.

 

[yedida]

Mr Thompson, no, there is further information that has been submitted to me and to others testifying as to what happen and why his previous wives left him. It is not the purpose of this forum or myself to reveal or discuss that information. I am in agreement that there are two sides to every story. What is factual (and stated by Steve) is that his previous wives left him. If polygamy is of YHWH and Steve is their covering, why would they leave him? Again, I am in agreement that either party could be to blame or both. What is not an assumption is that the relationships he had with his previous wives failed, regardless who was at fault. It failed simply because the marriages did not continue. I know that in the relationship with my wife, divorce or separation are NOT options. We have a beautiful and happy marriage because my wife and I hold to the commitment we made to YHWH in our biblical marriage. Our marriage is based on YHWH and our commitment to be ONE in Him.

Hashem said in Gen 2:24 For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
Notice He did not say 'shall cleave unto them and the three, four, five, etc of them shall be one flesh.'
Regardless of what some of the men God used did regarding one or more wives, only the man who chose and stayed with one obeyed what God ordained. And take to mind that those who took more than one wife, those who had women "given" to them by their wives, those who had concubines - ALL of them suffered troubles of one degree to another because of these "extra" sexual partners. Not one of them had a "happily ever after." That should be pretty telling that it was not of God, nor did the coupling gain His approval or blessings.

 

[SAM Wis]

In regard to comments about E/Steve, may I just confirm Trthckr's words that there is quite a bit of additional reason for concern that has not been posted here. For my part, I know that it is because I do NOT want to step beyond appropriate boundaries, praying and hoping that there is adequate information to remind people to consider carefully this and ANY teacher of the Word.

Any concerned person may do the same research to learn whether or not they agree before they become contentious.

We have been warned in Scripture that there is great need for discernment, that otherwise even the elect may be deceived. The positive possibilities brought out by internet and other media "teaching" venues also have the negative aspect of nearly removing the personal observations that normally go with appropriate discernment. To be a disciple had meant to walk after the Teacher, and surely in 24/7 type relationship, no discrepancies could be hidden.

Personal knowledge that one really is who they present themselves to be is necessary for both those seeking solid teaching, as well as those who have been called into a teaching/shepherding position considering their relationships. Accountability and discernment go both ways. In our community, we have also spoken of the differences in how we would deal with someone who is wheat, immature wheat, a tare or an outright wolf.

Though I do not see polygamy as the primary issue here, I do think it is important for people to study to see whether what E/Steve presented is exegetically sound. We in our community do not believe it was, and as I said, just for the record, having read his books, I did not see previous disclosure of polygamous belief or practice.

Just a brief note; humorous to me anyway-- If polygamy WERE YHWH's intention, I think we could observe that it would have been expedient to create Adam, and Chavah 1, Chavah 2, Chavah 3, and so forth so they could be more efficient in populating the world. Instead, He specifically chose to use the picture of one man and one woman, even making them as one unit first, then separating them, but immediately telling them that the two shall become one. E/Steve and Dawn used the argument that it could well be for building up the remnant. Since our God knows and tells the end out of the beginning, I don't think we see this as a preferred pattern in how HE has established things though certainly a possible one given the history in Scripture. The first to practice polygamy was Lamech, of Cain's line and we don't think he is exactly a righteous role model to follow. As others have observed here, every instance of plural marriage is related to either internal stress within the relationship(s) or external stressful situations.

In the second instance in which YHWH Himself put together a man and woman as He did in the beginning, we see Noah....and his wife, along with three sons and their wives. If He were a "polygamous God" wouldn't it have been more expedient on YHWH's part to preserve Noah... and seven women?

 

[SAM Wis]

. Not one of them had a "happily ever after." That should be pretty telling that it was not of God, nor did the coupling gain His approval or blessings.

Well, not quite sure we could say there was no approval or blessing ever given. (Though I understand the general summary and truth in this statement, I think!)

Jacob with Rachel, Leah, Bilhah and Zilpah certainly had their issues;
Jacob and Esau: Brother issues
Rachel and Leah: Sister issues

Precursor to the Judah/Joseph or Ephraim issues still raging today?

Yet, out of this group, all of Israel came. "Overcomes with El"...the nation that was blessed to be a blessing, through whom all the nations of the earth were to be blessed. Though we have seen some aspects of this blessing, we are still waiting to see the fullness of it! And seeing a lot of "dirt" in the process.

I have been exploring a possible thematic connection here with the four mothers and the four rivers out of Gan Edan, probably more than would be appropriate to go into here. I think there is an entirely separate and beautiful message here as well, despite the questionable and DIFFICULT marriage situation.

Multiple layers of meanings here and plural marriage is only one of them!

Ongoing arguments over whether or not Jacob should have just been content with Leah, if Rachel was a blessing or a curse even and so forth! So yes, polygamy WAS problematic!

It does seem though that the House of Judah-Leah's son and the House of Joseph-Rachel's son have had and will have very important roles to play in the whole Story. Perhaps Judah in the "earlier" years and Joseph in the "coming" years?

Stating what we all already know to be true: This situation of blessings found even in imperfect obedience or choices is just another reminder that our Abba is gracious and merciful and even works through our flaws, making what was broken, whole and lovely once again. A reminder I need from time to time anyway!

 

[smarternow77]

To Sam Wis, trthckr, and others who have patiently tried to provide answers to Mr T's questions. I truly appreciate your kindness as it's apparent he has not read this thread from the beginning from some of the assumptions being stated. It is also curious that Mr T referred to Steve's books, though he stated he had not read those either. I believe we're looking at a classic case of "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still". In other words, his mind is made up, he is not really seeking answers to honest questions.

 

[Desert Rose]

Jacob with Rachel, Leah, Bilhah and Zilpah certainly had their issues;

(attempting to stage a practical experiment)

Rsduncan (or Easy,etc... good ol MTAA will might kill way too fast) with Yedida, Chava, Visionary and DesertRose. I can imagine the issues!
Plus all the pets with each bring into the family. If you cats will threaten my goldfish, yedida, all do respect, but...


seriosly, it's interesting that it wasnt really looked down upon prior to christianity. THere are some warnigns against it, but Torah is mostly silent. Despite obvious ,clear objections from God on the subj of polygamy. Makes me wonder,why? Are some historical times more proned for certain sins to be widely accepted as norm?

 

[Cherry Blossom]

Unfortunately this is very sad. We believers need to have discernment and this is what we should be asking from YHWH. We need to be asking for wisdom and discernment from YHWH and study for ourselves to be approved. We need to be good bearans and study the Scriptures carefully no matter what teacher we have listened to, on a given day. If we don't then we will be deceived. I agree with SAM comments above also. We can't really know the full picture (regarding someone) that teaches us either, unless we have spent time with that teacher, to see if their character, mannerism and lifestyle matches their teachings. Having met and spent time with this person and his spouse, I can honestly say, I saw a lot of red flags that I found to be very disturbing. However, I won't get into that here. I do agree with many of this man's teachings and I am thankful for them. And those are the programs that broadcasted between Jan 2006-Nov of 2011. Of course, I will be seeking & asking YHWH if I need to re-examine those programs too. But since then (from Nov 2011 and up to the present), I have notice a big shift of inconsistency in his latest programs. Things are not what they appear to be, & that is what I have learned from meeting E/Steve and his wife in person.

 

[SAM Wis]

(attempting to stage a practical experiment)

Rsduncan (or Easy,etc... good ol MTAA will might kill way too fast) with Yedida, Chava, Visionary and DesertRose. I can imagine the issues!
Plus all the pets with each bring into the family. If you cats will threaten my goldfish, yedida, all do respect, but...


Ok; haven't been around long enough to picture this very well, but I think maybe this is four participants and all the "pets" they have in CF??? So it would be like a jungle, or a zoo?

seriosly, it's interesting that it wasnt really looked down upon prior to christianity. THere are some warnigns against it, but Torah is mostly silent. Despite obvious ,clear objections from God on the subj of polygamy. Makes me wonder,why? Are some historical times more proned for certain sins to be widely accepted as norm?

As I have considered the issue, and we in our community have done so, especially since all of this has come out, and because Steve and Dawn had asked us to help train their partners, we have seen that yes, the times that polygyny (plural wives) has been tolerated, best word I can find, has been when it is a life or death issue.

And my opinion here is that your question is a good one. There are certain lies/teachings that are evident and specific in any age that need to be refuted. If one tries to address any issue that isn't really current, they aren't accomplishing anything, but maybe shadow boxing?

So it follows that there would be certain ages in which certain sins are more "acceptable" to mankind. In light of survival needs, and battles anticipated, Steve had spoken of the need to maintain population, thus multiple wives, so this is one "justification" of a practice that is NOT normative, in my opinion, for whatever THAT is worth!

We don't see any reason to assume that it should ever be a normal practice, despite some people presenting it as one acceptable lifestyle choice. As most people here probably know, study to get a more full understanding requires a lot more than just reading the English words. I have written an article exploring the topic and along the way, providing some counter positions to what Steve has presented in his program. I hope to get it up on our website in the near future. Never thought we'd have to have a position statement on polygamy! But since Yeshua told us that as we near His return, it would be as in the days of Noah, I suppose we shouldn't be surprised.

Also just found an article on Chabad about this that confirms their viewpoint is quite similar so I was pleased. always like validation!! (Not that we agree with ALL in Judaism of any sect, just FYI. It is taking an entire website to talk about where we stand and be clear! )

To Sam Wis, trthckr, and others who have patiently tried to provide answers to Mr T's questions. I truly appreciate your kindness as it's apparent he has not read this thread from the beginning from some of the assumptions being stated. It is also curious that Mr T referred to Steve's books, though he stated he had not read those either. I believe we're looking at a classic case of "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still". In other words, his mind is made up, he is not really seeking answers to honest questions.

Thank you! I am glad kindness is seen! Yes, I thought, too, it looked like he hadn't read the thread in entirety. But then, I am new to forums and am finding out how time consuming it can be to read through a thread; especially when some of the posts are no longer there and it can be hard to follow. This whole thing shouldn't BE a personal attack, from either perspective but some people really have a hard time trying to understand a topic without making it adversarial. And some LIKE to make any topic adversarial.

 

[standingtall]

Steve posted a new audio message on his site that I thought might answer some of the questions about his past:

tsiyon.org/eliyahus_testimony_315/

No such luck. Don't bother listening if you're looking for further explanation.

 

[2the1whojudgesjustly]

Does anyone know if he Eliyahu/Stephen Steve Butt has ever renounced his past involvement in the occult as a Jehovah´s Witness elder in Portland? Or is he still proseltyzing just under a different name?

 

[2the1whojudgesjustly]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]Shalom Fellow Sheep,[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]Here´s a little more info for the sheep who want to follow the true lover of their souls the true shepherd Yeshua![/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]Contextual lie[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]One can state part of the truth out of context, knowing that without complete information, it gives a false impression. Likewise, one can actually state accurate facts, yet deceive with them. (Defintion of a lie from Wikipedia)[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]There are so many problems with this ministry from my experience of over 4 years now that I will try to summarize them below. (sorry i am not allowed to post links yet here so you´ll either have to google yourself or go to the first few pages of this thread) I think that one can accurately state Eliyahu or Steve Butt and Dawn have been lying to their ministry partners.[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]1. Occult Elder as Jehovah´s witness in Portland Maine. google portland district convention steve butt [/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]2. Studied and became an expert in occult tactics during counseling people exiting the occult. google new world translation steve butt[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]3. Practiced a Polygamy lifestyle shortly after counseling women exiting the occult. google you tube steve butt polygamy problem[/FONT]


[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]4. Wrote articles, books for the occult, for his polygamy doctrine while running google wordpress inside christian polygamy[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]5. Has been running 2 internet ministries under 2 different identities...to this day tsiyon.org has never revealed that his true name is steve butt.[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif] google bfree . org[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]6. He and Dawn have given thier testimonies never renouncing the occult practices of the past, foreign gods, cult bible translations, or admiting their practice of polygamy or the truth of how they met.[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]7. It is still not know the status of his 3 other wives besides Dawn. Are they seperated, dead, or divorced? [/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]Mat 5:32[/FONT][FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorcedcommitteth adultery.[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]and the children, his fruit....are they walking in the truth as adults now? [/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]Mal 2:15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. [/FONT]


[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]7. Ministry partner leaders who have been active in the ministry have disappeared mysteriously from the ministry with no reason why of their resignation. There were people in the past that were going to travel and met people, do websites, etc. that are now not a part of the ministry that have been asked to resign from the ministry but why????.[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]8. Eliyahu or Steve and Dawn agree that he is the self proclaimed Eliyahu forerunner of the messiah´s return to bring the remnant and 144,000 back to the land or the moses of today´s generation and those that don´t follow are going to hell. He is a self proclaimed leader with no elders or other leaders that he allows to hold him in accountablility.[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. [/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; [/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; [/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; [/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) [/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. [/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]1Ti 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. [/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]1Ti 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; [/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]1Ti 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. [/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]1Ti 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. [/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]1Ti 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. [/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. [/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]1Ti 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. [/FONT]


[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]9. They have no written doctrinal statement. When I asked for one I had to sign up and pay monthly as a ministry partner and listen to 10+ programs to decide. I am still not clear what his doctrinal statement is nor his true view on the trinity after 4 years![/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman, new york, times, serif]Joh 8:32And ye shall know thetruth, and the truth shall make you free.[/FONT]

 

[smarternow77]

Sam -
You mentioned getting info up on your website. Could you share your website?

 

[Avodat]

Non-Messianics may not teach on these fora - you may only ask questions or post 'in fellowship'.

Read the SOP's at the head of this forum for full information as to what is allowed and what is not. Rule violations may lead to a ban by the Mods.