Election and evangelism

[thecolorsblend]

I know that it is a debate and that especially Catholics deny it.

Catholics are at liberty to agree or disagree as we see fit.

 

[Beardedbloke]

No one comes to God by their own volition. Those that do were chosen by God to do so. Unless God chooses to draw closer, we will not. I know that it is a debate and that especially Catholics deny it. Seems biblical though. Romans 9:11-13; Romans 9:16; Romans 10:20; 1 Corinthians 1:27-29; 2 Timothy 1:9; Mark 13:20; Ephesians 1:4-5; Revelation 13:8; Revelation 17:8 and probably a few other.
Some are chosen, others are left to their sin. Exodus 33:19; Deuteronomy 7:6-7; Romans 9:10-24; Acts 13:48; 1 Peter 2:8.

My question is how the spreading of the gospel, aka evangelism, fits into that. We are told to do it, so it can not be pointless. But if those that would believe are already chosen, what is the point of spreading the gospel? So that the elect can hear and believe it?

Because God accomplishes their salvation through the means of the preaching of the gospel

 

[Beardedbloke]

You conflate two different things, they don't fit together. Evangelism deals with an earthly concept. Evangelism is to spread God's word. We are commanded to do it. The Holy Spirit works in the word. God's word is heard and some follow it. Others reject it.

Election deals with a heavenly concept. It has to do with God knowing everything, including the future. I think the best way to learn of election is with the concept of predestination. And, predestination starts with foreknowledge as scripture says.

God knows the future. He knows every thing we do. He knows every decision we WILL make. To him, judging us before we do something is no different as judging us after we do something. Christians have no problem with God judging us on judgement day, so they should have no problem with him judging us since creation.

Now scripture.

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.​

It starts with what I said, God foreknew. So because God knows the choices we will make, those that follow God are the ones he predestines, calls, justifies and are his elect.

I think you have the order wrong. We follow God because we are predestined, not being predestined because we follow him. That would be earning election because of something we have done.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Doesn’t election merely say that that only the elect have the potential for saving faith while others see God’s word as foolishness?

Sometimes the elect initially see God's word as foolishness, and sometimes the non-elect initially accept it, only to turn away later. Evangelism is a tool that God uses to accomplish his purpose. Election is the purpose. One does not see the hammer as unnecessary to the purpose of the blacksmith. Predestination by no means makes evangelism unnecessary. The question is only whether a person will be part of that purpose, or against it, but if that person is against it, then he is against God by being against evangelism.

Catholics are at liberty to agree or disagree as we see fit.

No, by your own words you are not:

For doctrinal issues, I am obligated to agree with my Church.

 

[Danielwright2311]

I will say if we live for the kingdom of God and not this world and we reject this world we can not follow elections of any kind as this is a worldly idea.

I hope this helps.

 

[thecolorsblend]

No, by your own words you are not:

And to the best of my knowledge, Unconditional Election isn't doctrinally defined by my Church. When it comes to TULIP, the only letters that I know about which are rejected are L and P. But faithful Catholics can agree or disagree with T, U and I as we see fit.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I believe people misunderstand the "elect," and devise theologies that state that entering heaven has nothing to do with righteousness, and everything to do with random drawings. We don't go to heaven through random drawings.

I don't know of anyone who believes in the Reformed view of election who believes in "random drawings".

 

[GodsGrace101]

No one comes to God by their own volition. Those that do were chosen by God to do so. Unless God chooses to draw closer, we will not. I know that it is a debate and that especially Catholics deny it. Seems biblical though. Romans 9:11-13; Romans 9:16; Romans 10:20; 1 Corinthians 1:27-29; 2 Timothy 1:9; Mark 13:20; Ephesians 1:4-5; Revelation 13:8; Revelation 17:8 and probably a few other.
Some are chosen, others are left to their sin. Exodus 33:19; Deuteronomy 7:6-7; Romans 9:10-24; Acts 13:48; 1 Peter 2:8.

My question is how the spreading of the gospel, aka evangelism, fits into that. We are told to do it, so it can not be pointless. But if those that would believe are already chosen, what is the point of spreading the gospel? So that the elect can hear and believe it?

You're right, of course.
There's no point in evangelizing if those chosen by God are going to be saved anyway...after all, can't God find some way to save those He wants to save without having to have them hear the word of God?

God draws close to everyone.
Romans 1:19-20

It's up to US to answer His call to EVERYONE:
John 3:16

Unconditional election is not biblical. It never existed until the year 1,500AD. MOST Christians do NOT believe in unconditional election, not just the Catholics. By most Christians, I mean mainline churches.

So, yes, evangelization does NOT fit into calvinism.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Acts 13(48).

Check out Romans 8:29
Paul explains this really well there.
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

 

[GodsGrace101]

[Staff edit].

Augustine of Hippo changed his mind about doctrine more than I care to think about.

AND, he was the only theologian to ever come up with this idea of predestination...Calvin changed it to double predestination...thus changing the very character of God.

Jesus does not agree with him, and Paul does not agree with him, and neither do the early church fathers.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Could someone please expain how unconditional election and evangelism fit together?

asked..

Is it the case that of all those that hear the gospel, only the elect would react to it and follow Christ as a result?

and answered..

 

[John tower]

Augustine of Hippo changed his mind about doctrine more than I care to think about.

AND, he was the only theologian to ever come up with this idea of predestination...Calvin changed it to double predestination...thus changing the very character of God.

Jesus does not agree with him, and Paul does not agree with him, and neither do the early church fathers.

I only know what is in the bible , and predestination is a biblical fact : never seen double predestination !

 

[John tower]

Check out Romans 8:29
Paul explains this really well there.
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Good verses sister .

 

[GodsGrace101]

[Staff edit].

HISTORY OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE page 165 by George Park Fisher DD LLD. T&T Clark(1). (italics mine)

Inculcated means it was the teaching urged or impressed persistently by the early Church Fathers. Conditional means in God's desire for you, if you work with Him it will happen; if you don't want Him, it cannot happen. Which, of course, is true due to His Self control (Galatians 5:23). Immediately preceding this statement, but after his various quotes from the Early Church Fathers, Dr. Fisher states:

...the renewal of the soul is made to be the result of the factors, divine grace and the exertion of man's free-will. As a rule, the exertion of free-will, human efforts in a right direction, precede the divine aid, and render men worthy of it. It is a doctrine of synergism. God and man cooperate.

(also page 165)(1)

Indeed reading Henry Chadwick's THE EARLY CHURCH (page 38) the index points the first idea of unconditional predestination as appearing from the gnostic sect, not an orthodox body of believers:

...the Gnostics [placed]...the natural order at so vast a distance in moral value from the supreme God. The influence of fatalistic ideas drawn from popular astrology and magic became fused with notions derived from Pauline language about predestination to produce a rigidly deterministic scheme. Redemption was from destiny, not from the consequences of responsible action, and was granted to a pre-determined elect in whom alone was the divine spark.(2)

In fact, when the teaching of Augustine on these things came into the hands of one of his contemporaries, Vincent of Lérins, he expressed it as:

...a most disturbing innovation, quite out of line with 'orthodoxy' which Vincent defined as that body of belief which is held undeviatingly by the universal church.

Chadwick Page 233(2)

Another contemporary, Julian bishop of Eclanum, expressed that Augustine was causing trouble because he 'brought his Manichee ways of thinking into the church... and was denying St Paul's clear teaching that God wills all men to be saved'(2) (Chadwick page 232-3 & 1 Timothy 2:4). The Manichees were a cult Augustine originally belonged to which advocated that:

...the nature of man can be corrupt to the point that his will is powerless to obey God's commands.

Chadwick page 228(2)

This continuing tenet of Augustine theology is an indispensible part of his unconditional predestination thinking, but it is in open defiance to prior teaching in the church concerning man's free-will. Roger T Forster and Paul V Marston in GOD'S STRATEGY IN HUMAN HISTORY quote directly from the following Early Church Fathers(3):

 

[John tower]

[Staff edit].

Predestination is a biblical fact : that is what I follow : I could care less about calvin or any other man : I follow the bible !

 

[John tower]

[Staff edit].

Everything I believe comes from the bible : I could care less about calvin.

 

[Micah888]

Predestination is a biblical fact : that is what I follow : I could care less about calvin or any other man : I follow the bible !

I agree that predestination is a fact, and an important Bible truth. But are some predestined for Heaven and others for Hell? Not according to Scripture.

But God had predestined every genuine believer to be "conformed to the image of His Son", which means all born-again believers will be perfected, glorified, and transformed into the likeness of Christ.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29)

1 JOHN 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

 

[ViaCrucis]

There is a big difference between wanting all to be saved and atoning the sins of those that reject God's grace. You can have one without the other.

Calvinists say Christ died only for the elect.
Arminians say Christ died for everyone potentially, that is Christ died for those who would freely respond to the Gospel positively.

Lutherans say Christ died for everyone. Full stop. That means the work of Jesus Christ is finished and completed, all the sins of every human being from Adam until the End are forgiven. But without the efficacious appropriation of Christ's work to us as individuals this work would be lost and unknown, and therefore the Holy Spirit appropriates and brings home to us what Christ has done. Christ's work is not efficacious only when I accept it, it is efficacious in and of itself--but it affects me personally when in Word and Sacrament the Holy Spirit brings these home, creates faith in me, and I trust upon what Christ has done.

Men are not damned because God wills that some should be damned. Men are damned because they refuse the gifts of God's gracious salvation even to the point of everlasting misery on their part.

Evangelism is, at its core, nothing more than the proclamation of what God has done in Jesus Christ for the world. This holy and precious Gospel goes forth from the lips of the Church to the nations, and the Holy Spirit brings it home to sinners, transforming them from nonbelievers to believers. Thus conversion is nothing other than the work of the Holy Spirit creating faith in faithless sinners.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[John tower]

I agree that predestination is a fact, and an important Bible truth. But are some predestined for Heaven and others for Hell? Not according to Scripture.

But God had predestined every genuine believer to be "conformed to the image of His Son", which means all born-again believers will be perfected, glorified, and transformed into the likeness of Christ.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29)

1 JOHN 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Who were before of old ordained to this condemnation and The vessels of wrath fitted to destruction and Rom 9(11-22).These are some verses that come to mind : You could add Eph 1(11), Col 1(17) .

 

[GodsGrace101]

[Staff edit].

Romans chapters 9 to 11 is Paul speaking about the Jewish nation.
God elected (which means chose) the Nation of Israel to be His first "son".
He chose this nation to reveal Himself and to make salvation possible for the whole world.

No where in these chapters is Paul speaking about personal salvation.
God knew Esau would not be interested in his birthright, so He PREFERRED Jacob and proclaimed that Esau, the older would serve Jacob, the younger - and indeed it did turn out that way when Esau sold his birthright for a bowl of porridge.

Romans 9:1 -- Paul is saying that he would be willing to give up his own salvation for his kinsmen, the Jews. He's telling them that they failed in not accepting Jesus as the Messiah and how he hopes they will come to Him. He tells them the entire history of the nation of Israel.