ELCA Churchwide Assembly declares Church Sanctuary for Central American Refugees

Hazelelponi

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True. But as best as I can tell, this isn't breaking any laws. A church is not a government entity and has no legal duty to turn over or report anyone who is undocumented/illegal (choose your term) unless compelled to do so by authorities. The state has a right to enforce its borders and entry requirements, but that doesn't mean everyone is compelled to become enforcement agents. I think that's the nuance here.

There is no law requiring churches to become ICE agents in effect, so what the church is doing is not illegal. One may disagree with it, but it's not illegal. If the law *forced* churches to become informants and turn in the alien among us instead of acting according to Leviticus 19:33, *then* the law would essentially be an affront to the law and religious freedom. But because the law doesn't require it, there is no infringement on religious freedom.

If the church is specifically inviting in and harboring illegals, in order to protect them from the just requirements of the law, with no scriptural authority to do so, then it is commiting a crime against God i.e. sinning by teaching and encouraging people to break the laws of the nation they live in.
 
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ziggy29

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If the church is specifically inviting in and harboring illegals, in order to protect them from the just requirements of the law, with no scriptural authority to do so, then it is commiting a crime, against God i.e. sinning.
How do you reconcile that with Leviticus 19:33? Would not betraying the "foreigner residing in our land" also be a sin against God?

I don't have an answer, by the way, but I think we won't find it (in either direction) by picking and choosing specific snippets of Scripture.

But again, there is no law saying that churches (or individuals) have any legal requirement, or even duty, to proactively turn them in to ICE. So there is no law breaking, IMO, in your scenario. Not by the church, anyway.
 
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Hazelelponi

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How do you reconcile that with Leviticus 19:33? Would not betraying the "foreigner residing in our land" also be a sin against God?

I don't have an answer, by the way, but I think we won't find it (in either direction) by picking and choosing specific snippets of Scripture.

We aren't national Israel nor are we under Levitical law.. yet even national Israel had laws that were to be obeyed, by both the foreigner and the citizen and they were enforced.

Of course we care for all the people around us, our neighbors etc., and we help those in need...

but this is saying Romans 13:1-7 doesn't apply because a nation has no right to sovereignty, or to create laws by which people can legally enter the country and enforce those laws.

There is no Biblical mandate for this move
 
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ziggy29

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but this is saying Romans 13:1-7 doesn't apply because a nation has no right to sovereignty, or to create laws by which people can legally enter the country and enforce those laws.
IMO, it's not saying that. Again, there is no law requiring churches to *proactively* turn in anyone suspected of being here illegally. If ICE or other immigration officials order a church to turn someone over to their custody, and the church refuses, *then* the church is breaking the law and violating Romans 13. But that doesn't seem to be what this resolution is saying. Unfortunately we don't know *what* it will say for sure until at least 2022, which was reason enough for me to oppose it (if I had a vote). I prefer to know the details of how it works before voting in the affirmative.

I tend to agree there is no Biblical *mandate* for this. But on balance I also don't think it is contrary to Scripture, either.
 
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Hazelelponi

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IMO, it's not saying that. Again, there is no law requiring churches to *proactively* turn in anyone suspected of being here illegally. If ICE or other immigration officials order a church to turn someone over to their custody, and the church refuses, *then* the church is breaking the law and violating Romans 13. But that doesn't seem to be what this resolution is saying. Unfortunately we don't know *what* it will say for sure until at least 2022, which was reason enough for me to oppose it (if I had a vote). I prefer to know the details of how it works before voting in the affirmative.

Again, inviting people in, in order to harbor them and protect them from the just requirements of a nation's laws, without any scriptural authority to do so, is a sin against God since we are to be in subjection to the laws of whatever nation we find ourselves in unless those laws specifically force us into sin.

Which they don't.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Let me explain another way. ICE isnt asking churches to turn in any illegals in attendance, or run around capturing illegals - and the church here isn't saying "We won't call ICE on our worshippers"

They are saying they will harbor illegals, and invite them in in order to protect them being deported by government officials...

That is a completely different issue, and is not scriptural..
 
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Halbhh

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I'm married to an ELCA pastor in a fairly small town area. While I understand the Biblical roots of the "radical hospitality" to the alien and reserve judgment on specifics until there is actually policy (no earlier than 2022, apparently), it is increasingly obvious that ELCA churchwide is leaving rural congregations and their pastors out to dry, and they don't seem to care if they become nothing but an urban, liberal church. For one thing, churchwide actions are increasingly felt as hostile to the values of more rural and sometimes more conservative congregations. For another, the churchwide actions do not have any "what does this mean for your congregation" resources. So when this stuff hits the news and everyone asks the pastor "what does this mean" and make rumblings about leaving the congregation over it, it would be nice to have something from churchwide to help pastors talk their flocks off the ledge, so to speak. We have already heard talk of people potentially leaving, and we're not a church that gets 300 people every Sunday with a $500,000 annual budget.

With anything like this, the ELCA should almost immediately have resources available as talking points for pastors, at least before the next Sunday morning. It does no one any good when congregants have serious concerns and the pastor can't give any answers or even any real comfort based in fact.

In short, the large, urban congregations don't seem to have any consideration for the impact of their votes on smaller, rural and generally less liberal congregations. Many of the latter have already left the ELCA, and that marginalizes the remaining smaller and more rural congregations even more, making them feel even more voiceless and as if they don't matter. That is seen in churchwide's focus on four issues -- race, gender, sexuality and immigration -- with almost NO work (at the higher levels) on any other matters of mission or ministry. It's not that I sharply disagree with that ministry -- but it feels like congregations are being bludgeoned with these issues, and only these. Instead of talking about feeding the hungry in our communities, clothing and housing the homeless in our communities, visiting and caring for the sick in our communities -- also core Christian values -- all we hear are the Big Four -- identity issues and immigration (which is also largely an identity issue in practical terms). Yes, identity-based social justice IS a Christian issue, but not the only one. Yet it is all we hear from churchwide and from many synod offices.

That said, if it is like most ELCA policies like this, implementation will be left to the synods and to the congregations themselves. If nothing else the ELCA doesn't generally impose requirements on congregations on matters of conscience-bound theological difference. But if that is the case, it would be nice for churchwide to be able to report this is the case to congregations and pastors.

A lot to that, and yes, it would be good to have more sent out to help, though there is the explicit statement given in the post #1 -- see it in quotes and italicized. But more would be good.

What is 'conservative', in the good, right, true and valuable way? To preserve what is good, and to continue it.

Right?

Then....Christian hospitality to those in need is....well, isn't it what "conservative" truly is?

I'm really asking you, because it's clear to me it's obeying Christ (and totally 'conservative'), but I want to understand and help those that don't see that, just as you've said needs to be done.

We have to keep that in mind -- the actual instructions from God -- and not get distracted by the mere worldly politics surrounding Congress and the current administration. They, those people, are not our Teacher, our Lord. Only Christ is.

Perhaps just this is part of the very message needed: this is not about political stuff. Not even 1%.


So, where in the Bible does it say a nation doesn't have the right to determine who immigrates to their country, and who doesn't?

Does China not have the right to turn away people who might desire to live in that country?

Does Mexico?

Does any country have the right to protect their border and determine how immigration, if any, will be handled in an orderly and legal manner?

Where is this clearly stated in the Bible?

We can't just break any law we might not personally like or agree with.. we can only ignore a law if it's a law forcing our participation in sin, such as a law being made making it illegal to pray to our God, for instance.

The foreigners that come to our land, whether fleeing famine, deadly violence (that has killed many family members already often), or economic collapse, we should treat the way the scripture -- the Bible -- says to treat them.

Right?

Leviticus 19:34 You must treat the foreigner living among you as native-born and love him as yourself, for you were foreigners in the land of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

In the New Covenant, we are under this in a more broad perfect form:

Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.

Do you see what's at stake here?

It's nothing less than actual, real Christianity.

We have to keep that in mind, and not get distracted by the mere worldly politics surrounding Congress and the current administration. They, those people, are not our Teacher, our Lord. Only Christ is.
 
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Hazelelponi

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A lot to that, and yes, it would be good to have more sent out to help, though there is the explicit statement given in the post #1 -- see it in quotes and italicized. But more would be good.

What is 'conservative', in the good, right, true and valuable way? To preserve what is good, and to continue it.

Right?

Then....Christian hospitality to those in need is....well, isn't it what "conservative" truly is?

I'm really asking you, because it's clear to me it's obeying Christ (and totally 'conservative'), but I want to understand and help those that don't see that, just as you've said needs to be done.



The foreigners that come to our land, whether fleeing famine, deadly violence (that has killed many family members already often), or economic collapse, we should treat the way the scripture -- the Bible -- says to treat them.

Right?

Leviticus 19:34 You must treat the foreigner living among you as native-born and love him as yourself, for you were foreigners in the land of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

In the New Covenant, we are under this in a more broad perfect form:

Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.

Do you see what's at stake here?

It's nothing less than actual, real Christianity.

Yes, actual real Christianity is at stake, and now you have an entire church commanding people to sin.

We aren't national Israel under the Old Covenant, and even national Israel had sovereignty and the right to make national laws and legally control the means of immigrating.

There is no scriptural support for this. No scripture anywhere that says nation's don't have the right to create immigration laws, and enforce them.

So here's a church telling people to violate a command of God - to obey the laws of the nation we are in..
 
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Halbhh

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Yes, actual real Christianity is at stake, and now you have an entire church commanding people to sin.

We aren't national Israel under the Old Covenant, and even national Israel had sovereignty and the right to make national laws and legally control the means of immigrating.

There is no scriptural support for this. No scripture anywhere that says nation's don't have the right to create immigration laws, and enforce them.

So here's a church telling people to violate a command of God - to obey the laws of the nation we are in..
Any church, any politician or leader, etc. trying to get people to break the rule of Matthew 7:12 in relation to the least of our brothers and sisters are the ones trying to get people to sin.

It's not men you and I will answer to -- but we should only fear God alone.
 
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ziggy29

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We have to keep that in mind -- the actual instructions from God -- and not get distracted by the mere worldly politics surrounding Congress and the current administration. They, those people, are not our Teacher, our Lord. Only Christ is.

Perhaps just this is part of the very message needed: this is not about political stuff. Not even 1%.
I agree that much of this is straight from Scripture. But telling that to a crowd in a hyperpolarized, hyperpartisan climate such as ours is not likely to succeed. Still, the point should be made. The fact is that my impression of the ELCA, as a churchwide body, is obsessively focused on only the most "PC" issues and giving short-shrift to all other matters of putting faith into action (I use "PC" only for lack of a better term; I don't mean to demean the message or the work). And that makes it feel a lot more political to a lot more people.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Any church, any politician or leader, etc. trying to get people to break the rule of Matthew 7:12 in relation to the least of our brothers and sisters are the ones trying to get people to sin.

It's not men you and I will answer to -- but we should only fear God alone.

Yes. Fear God alone - allow me to remind you once more:

"Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended."

This was written when Nero was Ceasar.

The only time we are to violate the above, is when the ruling authorities are asking us to violate God's laws or commands to us, as we see in scripture.

There is a difference between harboring criminals of the nation you live in, and being kind to your fellow man.

This country has a means and a way for those who want to come here have a chance to immigrate. Not every one who might like to come is accepted, but there is an actual application process and last I looked about a million people a year are accepted into this country, whether by green card or student visa or asylum claims etc.

All these people go through the legal channels the government of this country asks people to follow..

When people come outside of these legal channels with claims for asylum, people are given a hearing and every opportunity to make their case.

Not everyone wins their case, and some are told they don't have a legitimate asylum claim according to the legal requirements for such, and are sent back to their own countries - usually by plane.

For a church to stand against any nation's right to decide who comes to their country, would have to have a Biblical stance for that.

And there is no Biblical mandate for a country to have no right to determine a means for people to immigrate, or to deny anyone they wish. There is no Biblical mandate.

This isn't simple kindness to strangers this is declaring national sovereignty to be unBiblical and commanding people to violate national laws... and that is absolutely unscriptural..

you can't just decide for yourself to break whatever laws you like..
 
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ziggy29

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The only time we are to violate the above, is when the ruling authorities are asking us to violate God's laws or commands to us, as we see in scripture.

There is a difference between harboring criminals of the nation you live in, and being kind to your fellow man.
I think we're at a circular impasse at this point.

Your point (as I'm parsing it) seems to be that announcing you will help lawbreakers to the extent the law allows you is tantamount to breaking the law itself, and thus a sin (apologies if I've mischaracterized) -- in other words, even if your actions are legal, they violate the spirit of the law and are thus just as bad as if it were illegal. I disagree. I don't think you have sinned or broken the law when you are doing something you believe is Scripturally sound and not unlawful. If this is the gist of the disagreement, we'll probably need to agree to disagree and move on because I don't think either of us will move on this finer point.
 
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Hazelelponi

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I think we're at a circular impasse at this point.

Your point (as I'm parsing it) seems to be that announcing you will help lawbreakers to the extent the law allows you is tantamount to breaking the law itself, and thus a sin (apologies if I've mischaracterized) -- in other words, even if your actions are legal, they violate the spirit of the law and are thus just as bad as if it were illegal. I disagree. I don't think you have sinned or broken the law when you are doing something you believe is Scripturally sound and not unlawful. If this is the gist of the disagreement, we'll probably need to agree to disagree and move on because I don't think either of us will move on this finer point.

they are declaring they will help people break the law. Period.
 
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ziggy29

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they are declaring they will help people break the law. Period.
They are declaring they will not turn in those who have already broken the law. Subtle difference, but IMO an important one. And again, that is not illegal. You keep dancing around that point. Helping someone break the law makes you an accessory to the act, which *is* breaking the law. That is not the case here.

Look, I'm not all that enthused about the church going on record with this, either. But in no way is it breaking the law to do this. I will say that they could have just done this quietly, without fanfare, without the virtue signaling that Matthew 6:1-4 warns against. IMO that probably would have been the most Christian response.
 
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Hazelelponi

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They are declaring they will not turn in those who have already broken the law. Subtle difference, but IMO an important one. And again, that is not illegal. You keep dancing around that point. Helping someone break the law makes you an accessory to the act, which *is* breaking the law. That is not the case here.

Look, I'm not all that enthused about the church going on record with this, either. But in no way is it breaking the law to do this. I will say that they could have just done this quietly, without fanfare, without the virtue signaling that Matthew 6:1-4 warns against.

Read:

Harboring -- Subsection 1324(a)(1)(A)(iii) makes it an offense for any person who -- knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that an alien has come to, entered, or remains in the United States in violation of law, conceals harbors, or shields from detection, or attempts to conceal, harbor, or shield from detection, such alien in any place, including any building or any means of transportation.

1907. Title 8, U.S.C. 1324(a) Offenses

No one is saying you have to call ICE, but the church is declaring they will harbor illegals against United States law to protect them from deportation after their claims for asylum have been heard and refused under the regulations set forth by law.

So show me where the Bible says no nation has the right to determine immigration laws - or admit the church is in violation of Scripture.
 
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ziggy29

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No one is saying you have to call ICE, but the church is declaring they will harbor illegals against United States law..
If the church is actively hiding them from the authorities specifically to help them avoid detection and *actively* conceals them to prevent ICE from finding them, I agree with you. Simply saying "we won't turn you in" (if not required to do so) doesn't appear to cross that line.
 
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It's amusing how churches or political organizations bravely use hard-hitting terms they borrow from history ...to describe something other than what the word means.

Extending the good wishes of the ELCA or "A vision for what communities and the world can be" is not letting them live in your church. That would be "sanctuary."
 
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Hazelelponi

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If the church is actively hiding them from the authorities specifically to help them avoid detection and *actively* conceals them to prevent ICE from finding them, I agree with you. Simply saying "we won't turn you in" (if not required to do so) doesn't appear to cross that line.

They are declaring they will give sanctuary.

I know what sanctuary is, it exists in more than one culture and the meaning is synonymous with harboring and protecting someone from the authorities...

Which is fine if the authorities are asking you to participate in committing sin. Which, in point of fact, deportation simply doesn't do, when people don't have a legitimate claim to asylum.

The U.S. is one of the most welcoming countries in the world - legally.
 
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ziggy29

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Extending the good wishes of the ELCA or "A vision for what communities and the world can be" is not letting them live in your church. That's "sanctuary."
Good point. "Sanctuary" is a loaded word and is misused in a way that is not consistent with its historical meaning. I think if they chose a less loaded term there would be less outrage and less concerned congregants telling pastors they are thinking about leaving. "Sanctuary cities" and "sanctuary churches" are not actually harboring or hiding anyone. At least they'd better not be.

So yeah, modern context warps the meaning of sanctuary "in practice" compared to its real, historical meaning.

Then again, so does the word "evangelical".....

They are declaring they will give sanctuary.

I know what sanctuary is, it exists in more than one culture and the meaning is synonymous with harboring and protecting someone from the authorities...

Yes, that's what it means in the dictionary, but in the real world, that is not what is happening with "sanctuary cities", let alone churches. If that were happening in sanctuary cities, we would be seeing mayors and city councils arrested.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Yes, that's what it means in the dictionary, but in the real world, that is not what is happening with "sanctuary cities", let alone churches.

Got proof? because that's what THEY are declaring, not me.

I'm not an idiot.
 
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