ELCA Churchwide Assembly declares Church Sanctuary for Central American Refugees

ziggy29

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Got proof? because that's what THEY are declaring, not me.

I'm not an idiot.
You are the one suggesting criminal activity. The burden of proof is on **you**. The mere fact of using the word "sanctuary" is not much proof at all, let alone beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
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Albion

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Yes, that's what it means in the dictionary, but in the real world, that is not what is happening with "sanctuary cities", let alone churches.
The ELCA knows that its congregations will not house a dozen or so illegals each without plenty of blowback, so the national church will settle for the "moral imperative" of calling its advice and good wishes by the term sanctuary.
 
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ziggy29

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The ELCA knows that its congregations will not house a dozen or so illegals each without plenty of blowback, so the national church will settle for the "moral imperative" of calling its advice and good wishes by the term sanctuary.
If this is what they mean, it would have been nice if this were made clear in the memorial they voted on. At least then you wouldn't have congregants and pastors freaking out about it.

But I support a sort of "don't ask, don't tell" here, more or less -- but I do not want the church to be told they have to break the law. Like you, I am pretty clear they won't be told that, but there are at least three uneasy years of uncertainty this has injected into the church. Not a good idea, IMO.
 
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Hazelelponi

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You are the one suggesting criminal activity. The burden of proof is on **you**. The mere fact of using the word "sanctuary" is not much proof at all, let alone beyond a reasonable doubt.

They are the ones declaring they are engaging in and condoning criminal activity..

the burden of proof is on you if your wanting to say they are lying.
 
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ziggy29

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They are the ones declaring they are engaging in and condoning criminal activity..

the burden of proof is on you if your wanting to say they are lying.
I am saying that they are guilty of misusing the word "sanctuary".

Some states have laws on the books that are popularly called "Good Samaritan laws" which require citizens to render aid to others in some circumstances, or shields them from civil liability for doing so. So if someone is accused of not rendering aid when it is required by law, is it a valid legal defense to say the law doesn't apply to you because you are not a Samaritan? Because if we insist on the literalism of the label on a law or concept, that follows.
 
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Halbhh

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I agree that much of this is straight from Scripture. But telling that to a crowd in a hyperpolarized, hyperpartisan climate such as ours is not likely to succeed. Still, the point should be made. The fact is that my impression of the ELCA, as a churchwide body, is obsessively focused on only the most "PC" issues and giving short-shrift to all other matters of putting faith into action (I use "PC" only for lack of a better term; I don't mean to demean the message or the work). And that makes it feel a lot more political to a lot more people.
That's a very valuable thing to bring up!

If it ever seems it's political, then we are not communicating well!

We need to think on how to help people get past the political noise, and hear the Lord.
 
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Halbhh

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It's amusing how churches or political organizations bravely use hard-hitting terms they borrow from history ...to describe something other than what the word means.

Extending the good wishes of the ELCA or "A vision for what communities and the world can be" is not letting them live in your church. That would be "sanctuary."
Yes to this:sanctuary definitely means physical sheltering. We work to physically help the disadvantaged. Literally.
 
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Halbhh

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I'm married to an ELCA pastor in a fairly small town area. While I understand the Biblical roots of the "radical hospitality" to the alien and reserve judgment on specifics until there is actually policy (no earlier than 2022, apparently), it is increasingly obvious that ELCA churchwide is leaving rural congregations and their pastors out to dry, and they don't seem to care if they become nothing but an urban, liberal church. For one thing, churchwide actions are increasingly felt as hostile to the values of more rural and sometimes more conservative congregations. For another, the churchwide actions do not have any "what does this mean for your congregation" resources. So when this stuff hits the news and everyone asks the pastor "what does this mean" and make rumblings about leaving the congregation over it, it would be nice to have something from churchwide to help pastors talk their flocks off the ledge, so to speak. We have already heard talk of people potentially leaving, and we're not a church that gets 300 people every Sunday with a $500,000 annual budget.

With anything like this, the ELCA should almost immediately have resources available as talking points for pastors, at least before the next Sunday morning. It does no one any good when congregants have serious concerns and the pastor can't give any answers or even any real comfort based in fact.

In short, the large, urban congregations don't seem to have any consideration for the impact of their votes on smaller, rural and generally less liberal congregations. Many of the latter have already left the ELCA, and that marginalizes the remaining smaller and more rural congregations even more, making them feel even more voiceless and as if they don't matter. That is seen in churchwide's focus on four issues -- race, gender, sexuality and immigration -- with almost NO work (at the higher levels) on any other matters of mission or ministry. It's not that I sharply disagree with that ministry -- but it feels like congregations are being bludgeoned with these issues, and only these. Instead of talking about feeding the hungry in our communities, clothing and housing the homeless in our communities, visiting and caring for the sick in our communities -- also core Christian values -- all we hear are the Big Four -- identity issues and immigration (which is also largely an identity issue in practical terms). Yes, identity-based social justice IS a Christian issue, but not the only one. Yet it is all we hear from churchwide and from many synod offices.

That said, if it is like most ELCA policies like this, implementation will be left to the synods and to the congregations themselves. If nothing else the ELCA doesn't generally impose requirements on congregations on matters of conscience-bound theological difference. But if that is the case, it would be nice for churchwide to be able to report this is the case to congregations and pastors.

I had more time just now to read carefully through all your post and reflect on it more at length. In our own church, not urban, but suburban, the membership is truly a cross section of the surrounding nearby neighborhood, from which our members come, and just as a helpful indicator of how well it is representative, I know most of the members, and I think the strongly Republican outnumber the strongly Democrat, and also the overall tenor of our congregation is generally conservative also.

For us, here -- "feeding the hungry in our communities, clothing and housing the homeless in our communities, visiting and caring for the sick in our communities" -- members are many actively doing these, I know first hand.

What we are not actively doing, yet, and may not, except individually, is work more to help the refugees seeking a chance to live in peace and safety and raise their children here...

So, what we are already doing quite a lot of: "feeding the hungry in our communities, clothing and housing the homeless in our communities, visiting and caring for the sick in our communities"

What we are not yet doing much to my knowledge: "'justice' for the poor foreigners among us".

But we did have one visiting pastor preach a rather fiery sermon that we need to, and there were some people that got up and left during the service.

Because it's not comfortable to hear something that says we have to welcome the stranger, because we are Christian, if we are persons not really doing that -- it's an uncomfortable moment. That visiting pastor didn't really preach the right way: we needed encouragement instead of a rebuke.
 
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section9+1

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Lev. 19 is full of commands for the people of Israel. It says nothing to any government. It also says a lot of things that nobody applies anymore. I agree that as individuals we should not oppress the foreigner. As individuals we should be kind and helpful and not take unfair and unjust advantage of him. And even if a church wants to make foreigners their mission I won't discourage that. But when he runs afoul of the government, the government has no biblical responsibility toward him. When a citizen runs afoul of the government, he may be incarcerated and lose the presence of his family forever. The government's responsibility is toward its own citizens and no one else. It has a moral right to send these people away. The government bears the sword. Don't take commands to people and apply them to governments. Jesus ministered to and died for people. Nothing else.
 
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Halbhh

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Lev. 19 is full of commands for the people of Israel. It says nothing to any government. It also says a lot of things that nobody applies anymore. I agree that as individuals we should not oppress the foreigner. As individuals we should be kind and helpful and not take unfair and unjust advantage of him. And even if a church wants to make foreigners their mission I won't discourage that. But when he runs afoul of the government, the government has no biblical responsibility toward him. When a citizen runs afoul of the government, he may be incarcerated and lose the presence of his family forever. The government's responsibility is toward its own citizens and no one else. It has a moral right to send these people away. The government bears the sword. Don't take commands to people and apply them to governments. Jesus ministered to and died for people. Nothing else.

You used the wording: "a moral right "

Where do Christians "morals" come from -- of course they come from God, and of course from His Words.

We can listen and hear the message of Matthew chapter 25, v 31-46, and then it comes across loud and clear.

It's true that Christians refugees that the U.S. keeps out, and who die at the hands of gangs or cartels, will if they believe on Christ and have been following Him are safe in the ultimate way -- they will gain eternal Life.

But we -- you and me -- we have to believe in Christ and follow Him also, in order to have that safety.

This is the ELCA Lutheran forum, and unless you are a member of the ELCA, you cannot argue against the ELCA church here.

But if you want to discuss these scriptures further with me, I will be very happy to discuss them with you elsewhere.
 
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section9+1

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Countries invent their own moral rights. We have a secular country with separation of church and state. They are supposed to stay out of each other's business. When you apply church morality to a secular country, you will get conflict. John the Baptist was the greatest mortal in Christianity, yet he languished in jail midst his doubt and fears and eventually got his head chopped off and Jesus was right there and did nothing and had no criticism of it. He could have rescued John, but he let him be jailed and die and didn't lift a finger. Directing the government is not the mission of Christ. Back then governments made no pretense of caring for anyone. It existed only to oppress and enslave and everyone knew it. Yet the NT is barren of any direct criticism of government and in fact teaches the opposite.
 
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Halbhh

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Countries invent their own moral rights. We have a secular country with separation of church and state. They are supposed to stay out of each other's business. When you apply church morality to a secular country, you will get conflict. John the Baptist was the greatest mortal in Christianity, yet he languished in jail midst his doubt and fears and eventually got his head chopped off and Jesus was right there and did nothing and had no criticism of it. He could have rescued John, but he let him be jailed and die and didn't lift a finger. Directing the government is not the mission of Christ. Back then governments made no pretense of caring for anyone. It existed only to oppress and enslave and everyone knew it. Yet the NT is barren of any direct criticism of government and in fact teaches the opposite.
In the United States, as a citizen, I have the legal, constitutional right to speech that criticizes what I see as wrong actions by any governing officials.

I see that as an actual Christian duty in exactly the same sense as the word 'janitorial'.

It's a good-citizen duty I have, as a Christian, to participate in the good citizen way in our representative democracy.

Do you agree? If not, please say so, and we could discuss that.

Hallelujah for John the Baptist staying true to the faith. We can expect to meet him in heaven.

About the meaning of Romans 13 -- a real Christian duty also -- please see my post just above, #74.
 
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section9+1

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In the United States, as a citizen, I have the legal, constitutional right to speech that criticizes what I see as wrong actions by any governing officials.

I see that as an actual Christian duty in exactly the same sense as the word 'janitorial'.

It's a good-citizen duty I have, as a Christian, to participate in the good citizen way in our representative democracy.

Do you agree? If not, please say so, and we could discuss that.

Hallelujah for John the Baptist staying true to the faith. We can expect to meet him in heaven.

About the meaning of Romans 13 -- a real Christian duty also -- please see my post just above, #74.
I'll not tell an individual what to do with regard to their faith.
 
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Alien Lotus

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It's illegal.
Can Undocumented Immigrants Claim Sanctuary In U.S. Churches?
....In a word, no. The Immigration and Nationality Act makes it illegal to harbor an undocumented immigrant “in any place, including any building,” which includes any church.


...Does ICE have the authority to arrest immigrants living in sanctuary churches?
Yes. There is no law that stops ICE from arresting immigrants who take shelter inside houses of worship that offer sanctuary to immigrants facing deportation. Legally they have the authority to go to churches and arrest immigrants who have taken shelter there.
(Source)


Most immigrants arrested by ICE have prior criminal convictions
 
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hedrick

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There has recently been a "Pastoral Letter" describing what was (and wasn't) actually done. See A Pastoral Letter Regarding the Churchwide Assembly. Note that it is not urging anyone to take illegal activities.

In my opinion it would have been better if this had been sent earlier, though I doubt anything could have stopped some of the conclusions people drew.
 
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Halbhh

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they are declaring they will help people break the law. Period.

Perhaps you've heard by now, but just to make sure:

... Fox News misreported the facts both about the ELCA's position and about undocumented immigrants. Fox News did not have a representative from the ELCA on the panel and implied that ELCA congregations would simply ignore US law. This is not true.

One of their guests also implied that undocumented migrants carry disease and pose a public health risk. This is also not true.

The ELCA's designation as a "sanctuary churchbody" means that our denomination will continue to support refugees as they are resettled in the US through our partnership with Lutheran Immigration and Refugee Services, provide legal assistance to immigrants pursuing their legally protected right to seek asylum, and ensuring that undocumented immigrants are aware of their rights under US law. Moreover, it means that the ELCA will continue to advocate for just and humane treatment of detained immigrants, such as calling for adequate housing at detainment centers and accompanying minors through immigration court as part of the ELCA's AMMPARO program. Congregations that have the resources to do so may provide food, shelter, and financial assistance to migrants in need. Finally, it also means that the ELCA will speak out against xenophobia, racism, and fear-mongering against all people.

https://www.uss-elca.org/wp-content...on-Talking-Points-and-Helpful-Information.pdf
 
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ViaCrucis

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We can't just break any law we might not personally like or agree with.. we can only ignore a law if it's a law forcing our participation in sin, such as a law being made making it illegal to pray to our God, for instance.

How about a law that makes it illegal to seek refuge or to welcome the refugee as Christ commanded? Or a law that punishes those who feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, and care for the sick?

St. Augustine wisely noted, "An unjust law is no law at all." And following that, Dr. King opined, "I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws."

When Caesar commands that I betray Christ, I will refuse Caesar and worship the crucified and risen Lord instead.

We already know what it looks like when the Church kowtows to evil.

le'olam lo od.
Never again.


-CryptoLutheran
 
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