Eight churches set ablaze in Pakistan’s Punjab province after 2 Christian men arrested for blasphemy (100+ arrested)

dzheremi

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The thing that Sam Harris and his ilk don't understand about groups like ISIS is that they are about as "authentically" Muslim as the Branch Davidians were "authentically" Christians. Which is to say, each group is more the result of extremist reactions to modernity and idiosyncratic readings of their scriptures and traditions. Not exactly a good place to start if you want to understand the vast majority of people that practice those religions, or their motivations. I'd rather listen to cultural anthropologists on that matter, than a neuroscientist that is predisposed to think religion is infantile insanity.

Neither you as a non-Muslim nor 'cultural anthropologists' as a group are fit to determine what is 'authentic' Islam and what is not. People involved in religions as believers fight it out amongst themselves already over what is the 'authentic' expression(s) of their religions, without any outsider's input whether positive, negative, or neutral.

I'm not saying we can't all still have our opinions on such matters, but there's a reason why Reza Aslan's Zealot is not read from in church alongside the Psalms or the Pauline and Catholic Epistles, y'know?
 
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Pommer

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Is that what I said?


Or was I just pointing out that certain religions (when given carte blanche and the force of government behind the) have doctrines that have a higher propensity for leading to that kind of behavior.

If not the doctrine, then what is the culprit?

How is it that in just about every country where Islam has gotten a strong foothold, they end up with and environment that would make Ted Cruz look like a radical feminist and the first thing to go is typically any separation of church and state provisions that were in place before?

And why does the map for apostasy laws look like this? (despite lots of countries having either official religions, or predominant religions)
View attachment 334743

Clearly there's something different with regards to that specific set of religious texts that's leading people to some rather extreme viewpoints.

Again, this isn't a personal attack on the people themselves, it's a criticism of the ideology.
Islam is 1500ish years-old, what would the map have looked like in Christendom in, say, 1600?
 
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FireDragon76

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Islam is 1500ish years-old, what would the map have looked like in Christendom in, say, 1600?

They barbacued Michael Servetus in Geneva around that time period, just for disagreeing about a bit of doctrine.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Islam is 1500ish years-old, what would the map have looked like in Christendom in, say, 1600?
Probably pretty bad.

But pointing to historical aspects like this is the same as when republicans start talking about how "democrats are really the party of racism, because 100 years ago..." Pointing to something from a long time ago isn't really relevant to today's state of affairs...
 
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Pommer

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Probably pretty bad.

But pointing to historical aspects like this is the same as when republicans start talking about how "democrats are really the party of racism, because 100 years ago..." Pointing to something from a long time ago isn't really relevant to today's state of affairs...
Point taken, (and well made), and in 3800AD the map for Scientology will probably look similar.
Our “frame-of-reference” though, can skew things for debate’s sake without having an overall effect on the religio-political realities we’re witnessing.
 
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durangodawood

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They barbacued Michael Servetus in Geneva around that time period, just for disagreeing about a bit of doctrine.
Havent we all moved on since then? At least enough to where its valid to critique pretty harshly anyone anywhere who still thinks, say, stoning is an appropriate response to adultery?
 
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Pommer

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Havent we all moved on since then? At least enough to where its valid to critique pretty harshly anyone anywhere who still thinks, say, stoning is an appropriate response to adultery?
I only follow Dylan’s “stoning”.
 
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dzheremi

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Havent we all moved on since then?

Why don't you ask Lt. Muath Al-Kaseasbeh? Oh, wait, you can't. He was burned to death in a cage by ISIS in 2015, which is notable for its not being 1553.

I guess if "all" means "all, except for those who clearly haven't", then sure, we "all" have.
 
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FireDragon76

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Probably pretty bad.

But pointing to historical aspects like this is the same as when republicans start talking about how "democrats are really the party of racism, because 100 years ago..." Pointing to something from a long time ago isn't really relevant to today's state of affairs...

It is relevant considering you're talking about criticizing something from an entirely different part of the world in countries that have often gotten the short end of the colonialist stick.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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It is relevant considering you're talking about criticizing something from an entirely different part of the world in countries that have often gotten the short end of the colonialist stick.

If by colonialism you mean "westernized values that have led to flourishing societies that don't have these kinds of problems"?

Most of these countries were way better when they were still adhering to the "colonialist values"

Afghanistan and Iran in the 50's & 60's back when those countries had leaders that were considered to be "colonialist puppets for the West"
1692407402776.png

1692407639183.png


Those countries now? You're not even allowed to show your hair without getting harassed.

The earlier pictures were of women at Universities getting an education, wearing what they want... Now? some of those countries won't even let them get an education and for the ones that do, there's strict maximum quotas on how many women are allowed to based on the number of men that are are enrolled.

We're not doing society any favors by trying to be even-handed with regards to the "challenges" certain religious doctrines have.
 
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FireDragon76

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If by colonialism you mean "westernized values that have led to flourishing societies that don't have these kinds of problems"?

I wouldn't exactly call the US flourishing. White males in the US have seen life expectancy decline, and our democracy is considered "flawed" by most observer groups.

There are countries in the world whose way of life has persisted relatively unchanged for hundreds or even thousands of years, in comparison. Maybe they understand things about sustainability that America does not. Maybe they don't need western nations coming in and "fixing" them.

Most of these countries were way better when they were still adhering to the "colonialist values"

Afghanistan and Iran in the 50's & 60's
View attachment 334761
View attachment 334762

Those countries now? You're not even allowed to show your hair without getting harassed.

The earlier pictures were of women at Universities getting an education, wearing what they want... Now? some of those countries won't even let them get an education and for the ones that do, there's strict maximum quotas on how many women are allowed to based on the number of men that are are enrolled.

The thing about Afghanistan is that lifestyle was not popular outside of Kabul (and the same was the case in the recent conflict in Afghanistan, especially if you combine it with uninvited raids in the middle of the night with American special forces teams smashing up your house). It was also enforced by a Communist government. You can't hold together a country with the consent of only one group of people, and where the government is seen as evil or corupt. You can't buy somebody off who believes their culture is being colonized and subverted.

Afghanistan is 75 percent mountains. It's about as mountainous as Japan. It also has numerous languages and ethnic groups. The country is barely able to be unified at all. It's also very poor, with the leading export being drugs (which has been the case a long time).
 
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dzheremi

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I wouldn't exactly call the US flourishing. White males in the US have seen life expectancy decline, and our democracy is considered "flawed" by most observer groups.

There are countries in the world whose way of life has persisted relatively unchanged for hundreds or even thousands of years, in comparison. Maybe they understand things about sustainability that America does not. Maybe they don't need western nations coming in and "fixing" them.

So instead of 'fixing' Afghanistan, the USA needs to be 'fixed' by Afghanistan? Not to paint myself as any kind of expert when I'm not, but I do happen to live in the metro area that has the second largest Afghan population in the entire USA, and my neighborhood in particular is ground zero for that population (it's also where a lot of car dealerships and garages are, and around here those businesses have names like Karim Auto and Azadi Brothers; that ought to shut up people who believe that 'they' simply can't/don't want to integrate into wider society, yet it never seems to...), and while I would say that I personally think this has fixed my neighborhood in some ways (for example, there are way more Afghan restaurants within walking distance than McDonalds' or Starbucks', which is nothing but a positive in my eyes), it hasn't magically transformed it into an island of sustainability and long lifespans in an otherwise collapsing society.

I don't want to seem like I'm picking on you personally, but when I read about how so-and-so obviously understand things about what it means to really blahblahblah that we do not with our modern ways and so on, it just seems like a retread of the 'noble savage' myth that is frankly really pretty gross. It may not be the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of stereotypes about 'the East' held by people in the West, but it's no less othering, exoticizing, etc. ('Magical Pashtoon'-ing? Hahaha....I don't know) than the more obviously negative characterizations are.

The thing about Afghanistan is that lifestyle was not popular outside of Kabul

That's true of absolutely every type of society, though. The pre-'revolutionary' (read: pre-communist) nightclub scene of Ethiopia in the waning days of the Ethiopian monarchy in the late 1960s-early 1970s, for instance, was really only fully enjoyed by a very small class of economic, cultural, and political elites who could already afford to not just live in the capital, but also do things like spend money on records (an anecdote related by Ethiopian music specialist Francis Falceto about Getatchew Kassa's electrifying 'modern' version of the Ethiopian standard "Tezeta" being the biggest smash hit of its time while selling something on the order of at most maybe a few thousand copies is probably illustrative of how small this elite really was), go to nightclubs to dance and party all night, etc. That entire world had nothing to do with the reality of life outside of the capital in the villages, as the famines that periodically decimated the countryside both before and after this small window of of time showed in the most brutal way possible. And of course Ethiopia was never an Islamic society, nor was it ever successfully colonized by anyone, so...yeah, what are you talking about?

Last time I checked, the lifestyles of those in places like San Francisco or Los Angeles are not popular with people in more rural and conservative places like Tracy, California (in the San Joaquin valley), which is instead known for things like stabbing hippies (at Altamont) and being home to a branch of the American Nazi Party in the uncomfortably recent past (1960s-70s; according to Wikipedia, the city's neo-nazis relocated to Oroville after media reports shined too bright a light on their existence in the late 1970s, which...good?). So at level, the characterization you've given of Kabul v. the rest of Afghanistan even holds true in the USA.

You can't hold together a country with the consent of only one group of people, and where the government is seen as evil or corupt. You can't buy somebody off who believes their culture is being colonized and subverted.

Tell that to the Arabizing regimes of North Africa. Algeria doesn't appear to be going anywhere anytime soon, despite the periodic Berber revolts for more cultural recognition and rights, the murder of prominent Kabyle voices (like singer and secularist Matoub Lounes, for one example). Ditto Morocco, where Imazighen ('Berber' is pejorative) share an even larger percentage of the population pie. (Libya is something of a special case, thanks to particularly recent western meddling that largely has nothing to do with demographics, combined with the Qaddafi regime's special brand of craziness which made western meddling seem reasonable to some people, if only by comparison.)

Plenty of governments as well as individual leaders (to the extent that they are separable, which is not always the case) get by for a very long time by appeasing rather small groups of people precisely because they are corrupt, and this is how the game of politics is meant to be played when the leaders' real concern is to hold on to power rather than to behave as a 'good' leader/government should (that is to say, in the real world, where this is uniformly the case across all forms of government the world over). I'd recommend reading the book The Dictator's Handbook: Why Bad Behavior is Almost Always Good Politics by Bruce Bueno de Mesquita and Alastair Smith (PublicAffairs, 2012), if you want an accessible explanation of why this is, despite the fact that it feels like it should be a recipe for failure (because isn't being terrible and unresponsive to your peoples' plight a one-way ticket to being hung upside-down and having your corpse humiliated, a la Mussolini?). The book is also available on Audible, if you prefer to listen to books in audio format.
 
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FireDragon76

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So instead of 'fixing' Afghanistan, the USA needs to be 'fixed' by Afghanistan?

No, not at all.

I'm just pushing back against this notion that unless a country like Afghanistan has girls in miniskirts, that it's a "backwards" country. I think that's a very superficial way of understanding human development and human flourishing.

Not to paint myself as any kind of expert when I'm not, but I do happen to live in the metro area that has the second largest Afghan population in the entire USA, and my neighborhood in particular is ground zero for that population (it's also where a lot of car dealerships and garages are, and around here those businesses have names like Karim Auto and Azadi Brothers; that ought to shut up people who believe that 'they' simply can't/don't want to integrate into wider society, yet it never seems to...), and while I would say that I personally think this has fixed my neighborhood in some ways (for example, there are way more Afghan restaurants within walking distance than McDonalds' or Starbucks', which is nothing but a positive in my eyes), it hasn't magically transformed it into an island of sustainability and long lifespans in an otherwise collapsing society.

You're on the Left Coast, so that probably changes your perspective. In other parts of the country, Islamaphobia is alive and well. The Sam Harris stuff in some ways gives intellectual cover for it.
 
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Seems like Pakistan is especially prone to these "blasphemy" witch hunts. Is there something in the culture that makes people particularly on edge over these things?

I mean, I know its rare. But it seems less rare than elsewhere.

It's about control. Same as the original witch hunts.

These things are why freedom of religion and freedom of speech are so important. Rather than getting to the point where retribution like this is expected and tolerated and only opposed once it "crosses the line" the state should be making sure that this sort of behavior is not in any way shape or form condoned.
 
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FireDragon76

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It's about control. Same as the original witch hunts.

These things are why freedom of religion and freedom of speech are so important. Rather than getting to the point where retribution like this is expected and tolerated and only opposed once it "crosses the line" the state should be making sure that this sort of behavior is not in any way shape or form condoned.

In Pakistan's tribal areas, there's barely any kind of government.
 
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dzheremi

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It's about control. Same as the original witch hunts.

These things are why freedom of religion and freedom of speech are so important. Rather than getting to the point where retribution like this is expected and tolerated and only opposed once it "crosses the line" the state should be making sure that this sort of behavior is not in any way shape or form condoned.

Seeing as how Pakistan is officially an Islamic state, and their blasphemy laws come from the interpretation of authorities in that religion as to the appropriate response to what that religion deems as blasphemy, expecting anything like true pluralism or even basic tolerance of religious difference to somehow prevail there is some real wishful thinking. Like everywhere else in the forced-to-be-Muslim world, the status of the 'People of the Book' as a kind of scapegoat and/or societal pressure release valve is too critical to seriously entertain granting them full status as equal citizens even if that were allowed under Islamic law, which it is not.

Put simply, the Pakistani state needs it to be this way, so of course they're not going to seriously do something to curb this sort of behavior. It took irrefutable evidence from a local Muslim who had spoken directly to the conspirator in the case against Pakistani Christian Rimsha Masih for her to avoid being put to death for her supposed blasphemy, which of course had never really happened in the first place. That was a truly unusual case (in a good way!) in this context, as it is definitely not normal or encouraged that a Muslim testify against another Muslim to the benefit of a Christian, and it never has been. And of course the aftermath of that not guilty verdict was that she and her family had to go into hiding for months before they were able to successfully escape to Canada, so yeah...Islam and pluralism mix about as well as oil and water, and anyone who tries to say otherwise is selling something/been sold on something. When you see things like the burning down of churches and so on, that's not some kind of aberration -- or at least not any more than when the same happened centuries earlier under earlier Muslim powers (though to be 'fair' to them, I guess, it should be pointed out that it was more often the case that a great number of the existing churches in a given place would be taken over and converted into mosques, as happened to many historically important churches, such as the Church of St. Athanasius in Egypt, the Basilica of St. John the Baptist in Damascus, and of course now again the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul).
 
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A crowd vandalized eight churches and several homes following accusations of blasphemy against Islam in Pakistan’s most populated province of Punjab on Wednesday, according to government authorities and residents, stoking tensions between local Muslim and minority Christian communities.

The National Commission for Human Rights said the number of churches burnt “has risen to eight,” in an update on Wednesday, calling the situation “sad and shameful.”

Multiple churches including the town’s Catholic Church, the Salvation Army Church and the Pentecostal Church, as well as the local Christian colony, were also vandalized and set on fire, Talib told CNN.

Pakistan’s caretaker Prime Minister Anwaar-ul-Haq Kakar condemned the violence, writing in a statement on X, formerly known as Twitter, that “stern action would be taken against those who violate law and target minorities.”
And yet there are those in this country who would make our nation a theocracy. Be careful what you wish for.

The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.” ~ James Madison
 
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