Eight churches set ablaze in Pakistan’s Punjab province after 2 Christian men arrested for blasphemy (100+ arrested)

[essentialsaltes]

A crowd vandalized eight churches and several homes following accusations of blasphemy against Islam in Pakistan’s most populated province of Punjab on Wednesday, according to government authorities and residents, stoking tensions between local Muslim and minority Christian communities.

The National Commission for Human Rights said the number of churches burnt “has risen to eight,” in an update on Wednesday, calling the situation “sad and shameful.”

Multiple churches including the town’s Catholic Church, the Salvation Army Church and the Pentecostal Church, as well as the local Christian colony, were also vandalized and set on fire, Talib told CNN.

Pakistan’s caretaker Prime Minister Anwaar-ul-Haq Kakar condemned the violence, writing in a statement on X, formerly known as Twitter, that “stern action would be taken against those who violate law and target minorities.”

 

[durangodawood]

Seems like Pakistan is especially prone to these "blasphemy" witch hunts. Is there something in the culture that makes people particularly on edge over these things?

I mean, I know its rare. But it seems less rare than elsewhere.

 

[Occams Barber]

Seems like Pakistan is especially prone to these "blasphemy" witch hunts. Is there something in the culture that makes people particularly on edge over these things?

I mean, I know its rare. But it seems less rare than elsewhere.

I don't think it's limited to this particular (Moslem) culture.

India also has a problem with Hindus attacking Sikh or Christian or Moslem minorities. Indonesia has tensions between the Moslem majority and Christian minority. Even Buddhists have been known to throw rocks at other religions.

It seems to happen where there's a religious minority embedded in a place where there's a majority of another religion. Add low levels of education and third world poverty etc. and friction seems inevitable.

It even occurs in theoretically advanced cultures, like yours and mine, where synagogues are vandalised, where Christians object to a mosque being built in their neighbourhood, and in certain Forums where Protestants happily abuse Catholics.

It seems to be a characteristic of religions to abuse the 'other'.

OB

 

[durangodawood]

.....
It even occurs in theoretically advanced cultures, like yours and mine, where synagogues are vandalised, where Christians object to a mosque being built in their neighbourhood, and in certain Forums where Protestants happily abuse Catholics.

It seems to be a characteristic of religions to abuse the 'other'.

Well in cultures like yours and mine we dont have punishable blasphemy written into the law of the land.

I do agree about religions generally. And in our cultures they have had to be brought to heel over centuries of effort, still ongoing, so that at least outwardly they have to respect the civil rights of all.

 

[Occams Barber]

Well in cultures like yours and mine we dont have punishable blasphemy written into the law of the land.

I do agree about religions generally. And in our cultures they have had to be brought to heel over centuries of effort, still ongoing, so that at least outwardly they have to respect the civil rights of all.

The Conversation had an interesting article on the topic of blasphemy laws earlier this year. Its more common than I thought. The big surprise is Italy.

Of the 71 countries that criminalize blasphemy, 32 are majority Muslim. Punishment and enforcement of these laws vary.​

​

Blasphemy is punishable by death in Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Brunei, Mauritania and Saudi Arabia. Among non-Muslim-majority countries, the harshest blasphemy laws are in Italy, where the maximum penalty is two years in prison.​

The politics of blasphemy: Why Pakistan and some other Muslim countries are passing new blasphemy laws

A political scientist explains the history of blasphemy laws in Muslim-majority nations and how they play a role in silencing dissent.

theconversation.com

OB

 

[durangodawood]

The Conversation had an interesting article on the topic of blasphemy laws earlier this year. Its more common than I thought. The big surprise is Italy.

Of the 71 countries that criminalize blasphemy, 32 are majority Muslim. Punishment and enforcement of these laws vary.​

​

Blasphemy is punishable by death in Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Brunei, Mauritania and Saudi Arabia. Among non-Muslim-majority countries, the harshest blasphemy laws are in Italy, where the maximum penalty is two years in prison.​

The politics of blasphemy: Why Pakistan and some other Muslim countries are passing new blasphemy laws

A political scientist explains the history of blasphemy laws in Muslim-majority nations and how they play a role in silencing dissent.

theconversation.com

OB

Interesting.

I see the article focuses almost entirely on the effect of blasphemy laws in Muslim majority countries. That seems appropriate, as you dont hear about them being applied in Italy or Germany. In "the west" these laws seem like relics as we wind down the leeway religion has to oppress people generally..... But we've also seen a resurgence of conservatism in the west that could see those oppressive laws getting wound back up.

 

[dzheremi]

Or as it is known in Pakistan, a Tuesday.

Pakistan's minorities deserve so much better than things like this, and the horrific acts done to former federal minister for minorities Shahbaz Bhatti, and child labour activist and Christian (and former child laborer, and then-current child) Iqbal Masih. Lord have mercy; Pakistan's unconscionable blasphemy law certainly doesn't.

 

[FireDragon76]

Seems like Pakistan is especially prone to these "blasphemy" witch hunts. Is there something in the culture that makes people particularly on edge over these things?

I mean, I know its rare. But it seems less rare than elsewhere.

"Witch hunt" is the operative term. Annoying neighbors? Accuse them of blasphemy. Problems solved.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't think it's limited to this particular (Moslem) culture.

India also has a problem with Hindus attacking Sikh or Christian or Moslem minorities. Indonesia has tensions between the Moslem majority and Christian minority. Even Buddhists have been known to throw rocks at other religions.


OB

In Indonesia, the tensions are about ethnic identity more than they are about theology. East Timor is culturally distinct from it's Muslim neighbors.

The same is true in places like Myanmar. Religion has little to do with it. The so-called "Rohingya" are mostly just descendents of Bengali migrants who were brought in by the British to undermine Myanmar's autonomy. Myanmar has ancient Muslim ethnic groups, but the Rohingya aren't one of them.

 

[Occams Barber]

"Witch hunt" is the operative term. Annoying neighbors? Accuse them of blasphemy. Problems solved.

Back in post #5 you'll find a link to a The Conversation article which discusses this issue. The author traces the roots of today's Muslim blasphemy laws back to Sunni/Shiite philosophical/theological differences in the 12th century. Basically blasphemy laws are seen as a means of crushing dissent within the country by distraction and finding an 'other' to blame. (shades of Donald Trump?).

It may be that Pakistan is an extreme case of political/social/economic instability. Instability/insecurity leads to civil disorder (more shades of Donald Trump?) as a consequence of fear and frustration.

The task of good government is to maximise a sense of security among the populace.

Failing this, another option is to scare the bejabbers out of them and provide a handy whipping boy (e.g. another religion) to blame. Once in this state, religion and authoritarian government can act as security blankets, along with the odd violent riot, to release a little steam.

OB

 

[FireDragon76]

Back in post #5 you'll find a link to a The Conversation article which discusses this issue. The author traces the roots of today's Muslim blasphemy laws back to Sunni/Shiite philosophical/theological differences in the 12th century. Basically blasphemy laws are seen as a means of crushing dissent within the country by distraction and finding an 'other' to blame. (shades of Donald Trump?).

It may be that Pakistan is an extreme case of political/social/economic instability. Instability/insecurity leads to civil disorder (more shades of Donald Trump?) as a consequence of fear and frustration.

The task of any government is to maximise a sense of security among the populace.

Failing this, another option is to scare the bejabbers out of them and provide a handy whipping boy (e.g. another religion) to blame. Once in this state, religion and authoritarian government can act as security blankets, along with the odd violent riot, to release a little steam.

OB

There is no reason to take sectarianism at face value. The blaphemy charges are often just a pretext used against socially marginalized people. Just like in European witch hunts.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

All "officially recognized religions" and all ideologies that are held with "religiosity" are susceptible to going off the rails like this...however, certain ones seem to have a higher propensity for it.

I think it boils down to the link between doctrine and behavior (though some don't want to acknowledge it because it's viewed as "un-PC")

To paraphrase Sam Harris:
"To try to be even handed by saying "all religions have their extremists" is intellectually dishonest, not all religions have the same level of extremism...nobody lays awake at night worrying about the Amish"

There are certain religious texts that prescribe a higher level of radicalism (or lend themselves to it due to interpretations of said texts), and we need to embolden and support reformers in those particular faiths.

 

[Occams Barber]

There is no reason to take sectarianism at face value. The blaphemy charges are often just a pretext used against socially marginalized people. Just like in European witch hunts.

I agree. The problem is that a particular form of sectarianism doesn't need to be based in reality as long as enough people believe it. The other issue is that religion is a particularly useful tool to foment sectarianism since it requires no empirical proof to justify any accusations. 'Other' religions are wrong (and potentially harmful) by definition because they challenge my worldview.

Religion and rationality rarely occupy the same space.

OB

 

[FireDragon76]

I agree. The problem is that a particular form of sectarianism doesn't need to be based in reality as long as enough people believe it. The other issue is that religion is a particularly useful tool to foment sectarianism since it requires no empirical proof to justify any accusations. 'Other' religions are wrong (and potentially harmful) by definition because they challenge my worldview.

Religion and rationality rarely occupy the same space.

OB

You would see the same dynamics even with non-religious ideologies. Similar things happen in the Soviet Union, like the Holodomor, where peasants in Ukraine were blamed for the Soviet's failed agricultural policies.

 

[FireDragon76]

All "officially recognized religions" and all ideologies that are held with "religiosity" are susceptible to going off the rails like this...however, certain ones seem to have a higher propensity for it.

I think it boils down to the link between doctrine and behavior (though some don't want to acknowledge it because it's viewed as "un-PC")

To paraphrase Sam Harris:
"To try to be even handed by saying "all religions have their extremists" is intellectually dishonest, not all religions have the same level of extremism...nobody lays awake at night worrying about the Amish"

There are certain religious texts that prescribe a higher level of radicalism (or lend themselves to it due to interpretations of said texts), and we need to embolden and support reformers in those particular faiths.

I don't think Sam Harris understands Islam very well. Islamic Fundamentalism and Wahabism are less than two and a half centuries old, and represent a minority viewpoint in the Muslim world.

Pakistan's problems have less to do with Islamic theology per se, and more to do with the profoundly tribal nature of rural Pakistan, and that the central government barely has any control of those areas.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Pakistani authorities arrest more than 100 people in Punjab after church attacks​

Authorities in Pakistan’s Punjab province have arrested more than 100 people after crowds descended on churches and set them on fire on Wednesday, raising concerns over the discrimination faced by religious minorities in the country.

At least 17 churches have been vandalized since Wednesday, according to the National Commission for Human Rights (NCHR), a Pakistani government body. The attacks took place after a Christian man was accused of committing blasphemy and desecrating the Quran.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I don't think Sam Harris understands Islam very well. Islamic Fundamentalism and Wahabism are less than two and a half centuries old, and represent a minority viewpoint in the Muslim world.

Pakistan's problems have less to do with Islamic theology per se, and more to do with the profoundly tribal nature of rural Pakistan, and that the central government barely has any control of those areas.

Do similar infringements (or worse) happen in the Muslim world where the public attitudes represent a majority viewpoint? (the answer is Yes)

We can't lie to ourselves about the various risk-levels different religious systems present.

Some religions (no matter the denomination/sect) lend themselves to more extreme behavior that leads to more radical actions and propensity for being willing to infringe on the free exercise of other people.

As a simple comparison to put things in context....

Ted Cruz (in an American context with regards to Christianity) is considered to have "problematic oppressive views driven by his religion"...by the standards in Muslim-dominant countries, he'd look like a radical feminist.

 

[FireDragon76]

Do similar infringements (or worse) happen in the Muslim world where the public attitudes represent a majority viewpoint? (the answer is Yes)

What is the "Muslim world". Muslim societies are extremely diverse. In addition, there are thousands of different Muslim religious denominations or groups. It's not monolithic.

 

[Pommer]

Was is the "Muslim world". Muslim societies are extremely diverse. In addition, there are thousands of different Muslim religious denominations or groups. It's not monolithic.

Most of the aftermath of the Iraq War was just this sort of sectarian violence between the major factions of Islam in the area.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

What is the "Muslim world".

Countries where it's both the predominate religion, and holds sway in a legal sense.

In countries like that, despite the various countries have different sects of Islam being prevalent in the regions, they tend so share some of the concerning attitudes (especially with regards to free thinkers and women)


Much like if we were talking about concerning aspects of religion (and the restrictions on certain rights they push for), while Southern Baptist and Pentecostal and Apostolic are all different denominations, their stances on said issues are a common thread.