Eight churches set ablaze in Pakistan’s Punjab province after 2 Christian men arrested for blasphemy (100+ arrested)

FireDragon76

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Countries where it's both the predominate religion, and holds sway in a legal sense.

The largest Muslim countries in the world are is southeast Asia. Malaysia and Indonesia aren't exactly known for being hotbeds of international terrorism.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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The largest Muslim countries in the world are is southeast Asia. Malaysia and Indonesia aren't exactly known for being hotbeds of international terrorism.
I wasn't talking about international terrorism, I was talking about attitudes toward free thinkers and women.

  • Indonesia (231,000,000)
  • Pakistan (212,300,000)
  • India (200,000,000)
  • Bangladesh (153,700,000)
  • Nigeria (95,000,000–103,000,000)
  • Egypt (85,000,000–90,000,000)
  • Iran (82,500,000)

These are the largest muslim-populaton countries. And many of the provinces in them implement strict sharia law (which means women aren't getting great treatment in those places)

Indonesia's gender inequality index is among the highest of the ASEAN countries, according to the United Nations. Only Cambodia, Laos and Myanmar rank lower.
 
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FireDragon76

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Indonesia's gender inequality index is among the highest of the ASEAN countries, according to the United Nations. Only Cambodia, Laos and Myanmar rank lower.

None of those countries are Muslim. So why are you singling out Muslims as "backwards"?
 
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dzheremi

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The largest Muslim countries in the world are is southeast Asia. Malaysia and Indonesia aren't exactly known for being hotbeds of international terrorism.

Not to be a pedant, but this was domestic terrorism (Pakistanis killing Pakistanis), so I'm not sure that Malaysia's and Indonesia's profiles as international terrorist hotspots are relevant to anything.
 
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FireDragon76

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Not to be a pedant, but this was domestic terrorism (Pakistanis killing Pakistanis), so I'm not sure that Malaysia's and Indonesia's profiles as international terrorist hotspots are relevant to anything.

Sure, sectarian violence can be a problem but it's not what ThatRobGuy is actually insinuating.. He's going for the old hoary trope that Muslims are barbarians out for the blood of anybody that doesn't agree with their religion.

The reality is alot more complicated than Sam Harris's simplistic caricature of Islam as inherently violent. And it's been disproven by actual anthropologists and scholars of religion, some of whom have actually worked with the US government in counter-terrorism.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Sure, sectarian violence can be a problem but it's not what ThatRobGuy is actually insinuating.. He's going for the old hoary trope that Muslims are barbarians out for the blood of anybody that doesn't agree with their religion.

The reality is alot more complicated than Sam Harris's simplistic caricature of Islam as inherently violent. And it's been disproven by actual anthropologists and scholars of religion, some of whom have actually worked with the US government in counter-terrorism.
Is that what I said?


Or was I just pointing out that certain religions (when given carte blanche and the force of government behind the) have doctrines that have a higher propensity for leading to that kind of behavior.

If not the doctrine, then what is the culprit?

How is it that in just about every country where Islam has gotten a strong foothold, they end up with and environment that would make Ted Cruz look like a radical feminist and the first thing to go is typically any separation of church and state provisions that were in place before?

And why does the map for apostasy laws look like this? (despite lots of countries having either official religions, or predominant religions)
1692368162952.png


Clearly there's something different with regards to that specific set of religious texts that's leading people to some rather extreme viewpoints.

Again, this isn't a personal attack on the people themselves, it's a criticism of the ideology.
 
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durangodawood

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Sure, sectarian violence can be a problem but it's not what ThatRobGuy is actually insinuating.. He's going for the old hoary trope that Muslims are barbarians out for the blood of anybody that doesn't agree with their religion.

The reality is alot more complicated than Sam Harris's simplistic caricature of Islam as inherently violent. And it's been disproven by actual anthropologists and scholars of religion, some of whom have actually worked with the US government in counter-terrorism.
Surely you've seen the Pew Research poll indicating an appalling degree of Muslim support for the death penalty for leaving the faith. To me that indicates a fundamental ideological incompatibility with western beliefs re individual rights.

Chapter 1: Beliefs About Sharia
 
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FireDragon76

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Is that what I said?


Or was I just pointing out that certain religions (when given carte blanche and the force of government behind the) have doctrines that have a higher propensity for leading to that kind of behavior.

If not the doctrine, then what is the culprit?

You'ld have to set aside your assumptions about what the essence of religion is, informed as they are by peculiarly western, Protestant notions. Islam, as practiced by most Muslims, is far more a practical, embodied religion than one where people work it out based purely on abstract religious principles.
 
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FireDragon76

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Surely you've seen the Pew Research poll indicating an appalling degree of Muslim support for the death penalty for leaving the faith. To me that indicates a fundamental ideological incompatibility with western beliefs re individual rights.

Chapter 1: Beliefs About Sharia

Most of those countries that had high agreement are relatively poor. I doubt Muslims in Europe or the US would share those sentiments.

Also, it's possible the question was asked in a leading manner.
 
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durangodawood

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Most of those countries that had high agreement are relatively poor. I doubt Muslims in Europe or the US would share those sentiments.

Also, it's possible the question was asked in a leading manner.
I think Pew has a pretty good reputation.

Yes, the countries are poor. But these are large percentages of whole countries. And we're asking about a belief thats not just "offensive", but truly horrific.
 
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FireDragon76

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I think Pew has a pretty good reputation.

Yes, the countries are poor. But these are large percentages of whole countries. And we're asking about a belief thats not just "offensive", but truly horrific.

They were asked if Sharia law comes from God. How is that "horrific"? I think that attitude displays uninformed prejudice against Muslims.

That's like asking a Jew if Halachic law is from God, and then being "horrified" when they answer "yes".
 
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durangodawood

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They were asked if Sharia law comes from God. How is that "horrific"? I think that attitude displays uninformed prejudice against Muslims.

That's like asking a Jew if Halachic law is from God, and then being "horrified" when they answer "yes".
Further down they ask if death for apostasy is appropriate, as well as stoning for adultery. Its the "yes" answer to those that I find horrific.
 
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FireDragon76

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Further down they ask if death for apostasy is appropriate, as well as stoning for adultery. Its the responses to those questions I found horrific.

Alot of traditional societies would have similar answers. So what is on trial, Islam or modernity?
 
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dzheremi

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Sure, sectarian violence can be a problem but it's not what ThatRobGuy is actually insinuating.. He's going for the old hoary trope that Muslims are barbarians out for the blood of anybody that doesn't agree with their religion.

I disagree with that as a characterization of Muslims overall, but certainly some self-appointed groups of Islamic purists like ISIS could (and I would argue should) be described that way. I don't think that's as foreign to Islam (or for that matter other religions; see here violence from Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, et al. in their own contexts) as the most rosy portrayals of the religion say. Muslims are of course not mindless killbot automatons, but neither are they just Episcopalians in hijabs or abayas or whatever.

The reality is alot more complicated than Sam Harris's simplistic caricature of Islam as inherently violent. And it's been disproven by actual anthropologists and scholars of religion, some of whom have actually worked with the US in counter-terrorism.

I don't know or care what the likes of Sam Harris has to say about Islam (or anything else, for that matter). My impression of the religion comes from studying 1400 years of history and the ongoing relations of Muslims and others in the places in which Islam and hence Muslims hold sway in an uncontroversial and (to them) 'natural' manner, since several of those places are the traditional homelands of my Church (Egypt, obviously, but also historically Sudan and Libya; not to mention of course the Syrians and Armenians in Turkey and the wider Middle East). Islam in its own languages and cultural contexts is very different than what westerners make of it, whether we're talking about the likes of Sam Harris or Karen Armstrong. As for me, I like to remind myself that for every Wahabist there is the example of the likes of Safavid Shah Abbas I, who explicitly mandated the founding of New Julfa (the large Armenian quarter of Isfahan) in the early 17th century as a refuge for the Armenians who had fled to Persia to escape the violence directed at them by the Azeri Turks in Nakhchivan. The problem, if you will, is that in many cases, such examples stand out because they are so rare. I can't find the book itself right now (my books are in disarray as many are currently forming a wall of sorts to keep my darn cat off the raised portion of my kitchen counter), but there is a historical incident relayed in Christianity in Fifteenth-Century Iraq by Thomas A. Carlson (part of Cambridge's Studies in Islamic Civilization series) wherein the Islamic authority of the day (I can't remember if it was a local governor or someone higher up) intervened in a dispute on behalf of a Syriac Orthodox subject of Mesopotamia against the claims of an Islamic subject against him. This is, Carlson points out, the single time in all of the documents he consulted for the book that such siding with a member of the 'wrong' group happens. Of course, such a thing is against the traditional conceptions of how Islamic societies are to be organized and run according to traditional Islamic sources themselves (going back to Muhammad, if you can believe what Muslims themselves insist), so we shouldn't expect otherwise, but the point is that this is a far cry from the at least theoretically impartial standard of justice we expect in modern countries not run by the dictates of Islam.

My point is not to share a historical factoid, but to point out that this sort of imbalance is baked into Islamic societies based on Islamic conceptions of how to properly order society, so it's a bit much to lay interpretations that paint Muslims as inherently supremacist (I wouldn't say violent, necessarily, though supremacism/cultural and religious chauvinism can certainly provide an impetus for religious violence to take place, no matter what kind of society we're looking at) at the feet of westerners or otherwise non-Muslim peoples, as though the problem begins with people who say that Islam is a terrible religion from an interfaith relations perspective, and not with how seriously some amount of Muslims take the Qur'anic position that Muslims are "the best of peoples" (3:110; the whole verse, it should be said, is not-really-arguably much more arrogant and, on that account, worse for Muslim/non-Muslim relations) that basically guarantees that Islam will be a terrible religion with regard to how it treats non-Muslims as a class (in that particular verse, specifically 'People of the Book', which is obviously relevant to the situation in Pakistan). We didn't put it in there. Heck, we do not even consent to be called 'People of the Book' in the first place. That's not our term. In the conqueror's language, we are masihiyoun -- 'People of the Messiah (Jesus)', if anything.

So pointing to unfair portrayals of Muslims (which do exist, of course) can only go so far, because the root of the matter is in the Islamic texts themselves (not just the Qur'an, but also the related texts meant to govern the relation between Muslims and non-Muslims in accordance with it, such as of course the Constitution of Medina, and later documents such as the Pact of Umar) and how they are interpreted by Islamic schools of jurisprudence and other philosophical currents within Islamic societies. For us, of course, none of these things are worth a fig, and I think history shows that the rule of our societies by Islam has been at best a very mixed bag which tends more often toward the negative. Al Sisi likely wouldn't have had the impetus to allow the construction of the new cathedral in the planned Egyptian capital were it not for the earlier murders of the neo-martyrs of Libya by Islamist terrorists, y'know? So we can say "He let us have a new cathedral; how tolerant", or "Why do we have to die en masse because some barbarians think their god loves them for spilling our blood?", or perhaps many other things, but we can never say "It is an aberration that the mass killings have occurred in Libya" (or on the road to the monastery of St. Samuel of Qalamun, or wherever), because we know it is not an aberration. History and our present and continuous reality of living under Islam shows us that without anyone from anywhere having to make some big pronouncement about Islam as a thing. We just have to see what happens, and not let our desire that reality be somehow other than what it is cause us to deny what happens,

In other words, as I said before, it's a Tuesday.
 
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dzheremi

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Alot of traditional societies would have similar answers. So what is on trial, Islam or modernity?

Come on. It's Islam. These are Islamic societies. That's entirely what we're talking about. "Modernity" is not on trial, because (e.g.) Finland is a modern society, and yet Finland does NOT traditionally foster the attitude among its people that the death penalty is an appropriate reaction to apostasy from the dominant religion of Finland. It's not a mystery as to why. Quit being purposely naïve. It's unbecoming and so very unnecessary.
 
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FireDragon76

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Come on. It's Islam. These are Islamic societies. That's entirely what we're talking about. "Modernity" is not on trial, because (e.g.) Finland is a modern society, and yet Finland does NOT traditionally foster the attitude among its people that the death penalty is an appropriate reaction to apostasy from the dominant religion of Finland. It's not a mystery as to why. Quit being purposely naïve. It's unbecoming and so very unnecessary.

Finland is a wealthy, post-industrial nation. Pakistan is not.
 
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FireDragon76

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I disagree with that as a characterization of Muslims overall, but certainly some self-appointed groups of Islamic purists like ISIS could (and I would argue should) be described that way. I don't think that's as foreign to Islam (or for that matter other religions; see here violence from Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, et al. in their own contexts) as the most rosy portrayals of the religion say. Muslims are of course not mindless killbot automatons, but neither are they just Episcopalians in hijabs or abayas or whatever.



I don't know or care what the likes of Sam Harris has to say about Islam (or anything else, for that matter). My impression of the religion comes from studying 1400 years of history and the ongoing relations of Muslims and others in the places in which Islam and hence Muslims hold sway in an uncontroversial and (to them) 'natural' manner, since several of those places are the traditional homelands of my Church (Egypt, obviously, but also historically Sudan and Libya; not to mention of course the Syrians and Armenians in Turkey and the wider Middle East). Islam in its own languages and cultural contexts is very different than what westerners make of it, whether we're talking about the likes of Sam Harris or Karen Armstrong. As for me, I like to remind myself that for every Wahabist there is the example of the likes of Safavid Shah Abbas I, who explicitly mandated the founding of New Julfa (the large Armenian quarter of Isfahan) in the early 17th century as a refuge for the Armenians who had fled to Persia to escape the violence directed at them by the Azeri Turks in Nakhchivan. The problem, if you will, is that in many cases, such examples stand out because they are so rare. I can't find the book itself right now (my books are in disarray as many are currently forming a wall of sorts to keep my darn cat off the raised portion of my kitchen counter), but there is a historical incident relayed in Christianity in Fifteenth-Century Iraq by Thomas A. Carlson (part of Cambridge's Studies in Islamic Civilization series) wherein the Islamic authority of the day (I can't remember if it was a local governor or someone higher up) intervened in a dispute on behalf of a Syriac Orthodox subject of Mesopotamia against the claims of an Islamic subject against him. This is, Carlson points out, the single time in all of the documents he consulted for the book that such siding with a member of the 'wrong' group happens. Of course, such a thing is against the traditional conceptions of how Islamic societies are to be organized and run according to traditional Islamic sources themselves (going back to Muhammad, if you can believe what Muslims themselves insist), so we shouldn't expect otherwise, but the point is that this is a far cry from the at least theoretically impartial standard of justice we expect in modern countries not run by the dictates of Islam.

My point is not to share a historical factoid, but to point out that this sort of imbalance is baked into Islamic societies based on Islamic conceptions of how to properly order society, so it's a bit much to lay interpretations that paint Muslims as inherently supremacist (I wouldn't say violent, necessarily, though supremacism/cultural and religious chauvinism can certainly provide an impetus for religious violence to take place, no matter what kind of society we're looking at) at the feet of westerners or otherwise non-Muslim peoples, as though the problem begins with people who say that Islam is a terrible religion from an interfaith relations perspective, and not with how seriously some amount of Muslims take the Qur'anic position that Muslims are "the best of peoples" (3:110; the whole verse, it should be said, is not-really-arguably much more arrogant and, on that account, worse for Muslim/non-Muslim relations) that basically guarantees that Islam will be a terrible religion with regard to how it treats non-Muslims as a class (in that particular verse, specifically 'People of the Book', which is obviously relevant to the situation in Pakistan). We didn't put it in there. Heck, we do not even consent to be called 'People of the Book' in the first place. That's not our term. In the conqueror's language, we are masihiyoun -- 'People of the Messiah (Jesus)', if anything.

So pointing to unfair portrayals of Muslims (which do exist, of course) can only go so far, because the root of the matter is in the Islamic texts themselves (not just the Qur'an, but also the related texts meant to govern the relation between Muslims and non-Muslims in accordance with it, such as of course the Constitution of Medina, and later documents such as the Pact of Umar) and how they are interpreted by Islamic schools of jurisprudence and other philosophical currents within Islamic societies. For us, of course, none of these things are worth a fig, and I think history shows that the rule of our societies by Islam has been at best a very mixed bag which tends more often toward the negative. Al Sisi likely wouldn't have had the impetus to allow the construction of the new cathedral in the planned Egyptian capital were it not for the earlier murders of the neo-martyrs of Libya by Islamist terrorists, y'know? So we can say "He let us have a new cathedral; how tolerant", or "Why do we have to die en masse because some barbarians think their god loves them for spilling our blood?", or perhaps many other things, but we can never say "It is an aberration that the mass killings have occurred in Libya" (or on the road to the monastery of St. Samuel of Qalamun, or wherever), because we know it is not an aberration. History and our present and continuous reality of living under Islam shows us that without anyone from anywhere having to make some big pronouncement about Islam as a thing. We just have to see what happens, and not let our desire that reality be somehow other than what it is cause us to deny what happens,

In other words, as I said before, it's a Tuesday.

I agree your average Muslim is neither an Episcopalian in hijab nor a Taliban/ISIS jihadi.

There used to be a poster here on the forum that live in the Philipines among Muslims, a missionary, and I think they had the best perspective on "the average Muslim". It's been a long time since I've seen their posting, however.

Favoritism towards a powerfuly ingroup is hardly unique to Islam. That doesn't make people moral monsters, it makes them human. I think there's a tendency to other-ize and exoticise Muslims in the US (not aiming this directly at you, but just towards the general discussion), without considering the history that Orientalism plays in western culture's conceptualization of that part of the world.
 
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FireDragon76

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The thing that Sam Harris and his ilk don't understand about groups like ISIS is that they are about as "authentically" Muslim as the Branch Davidians were "authentically" Christians. Which is to say, each group is more the result of extremist reactions to modernity and idiosyncratic readings of their scriptures and traditions. Not exactly a good place to start if you want to understand the vast majority of people that practice those religions, or their motivations. I'd rather listen to cultural anthropologists on that matter, than a neuroscientist that is predisposed to think religion is infantile insanity.
 
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dzheremi

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Finland is a wealthy, post-industrial nation. Pakistan is not.

Saudi Arabia has a GDP of 1.1 trillion dollars (the only Muslim-majority country with a higher GDP than that is Indonesia, though it is roughly comparable, at $1.3), which is far higher than that of a wealthy, post-industrial Switzerland ($808 billion). How much terrorism have the Swiss been responsible for in recent decades? Turkey, a frequent sponsor of terrorism against its own minorities and in nearby Middle Eastern countries that is nevertheless painted as both 'modern' and 'secular' by people inside and outside of the country, also has a higher GDP than Switzerland ($906 billion). That doesn't stop their terror campaign against Kurds in their own country, or their aiding terrorists in Syria (to the detriment of local Assyrians/Syriacs who ended up in those areas of Syria in the first place after Turkey committed genocide against them that the state still officially denies and prosecutes others in-country for mentioning it) when they get the chance.

You're really straining to avoid facing reality on this, FireDragon76.
 
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dzheremi

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I agree your average Muslim is neither an Episcopalian in hijab nor a Taliban/ISIS jihadi.

There used to be a poster here on the forum that live in the Philipines among Muslims, a missionary, and I think they had the best perspective on "the average Muslim". It's been a long time since I've seen their posting, however.

I believe that you're referring to JosephZ. As far as I know he's still here, though I don't specifically follow his posting.

Favoritism towards a powerfuly ingroup is hardly unique to Islam.

Indeed it isn't, but I would respond that this is not what I mean to show. The issue is not with "who is powerful in a given society" (if that were so, then aggrieved Muslims in Egypt would have something of a point in using Egyptian telecom billionaire and Coptic Christian Naguib Sawiris to argue that any claims of systematic oppression of the Copts in Egypt are overblown; NB how much this mirrors the argument that you find in the USA on the part of the "racism is not present/a major factor in the ordering of U.S. society" crowd, who will llikewise point to former President Obama, Jay-Z, LeBron James, or any other famous and successful black person they've heard of as though their existence is proof of their stance). Rather, the issue is with how the society is structured so as to maintain a permanent Muslim/Islamic ruling class (I don't mean "class" here in the economic sense that it is often meant, but instead a kind of political/intellectual/religious class that will not be unseated for anything, because of course the majority doesn't want Egypt to be a truly 'religion-blind' pluralistic society, for entirely Islamic reasons; the Copts know this, which is why our leaders went on record as saying that they do not and would not oppose the inclusion of article 2 in the new, post-'revolution' Egypt, even as some of the politically-active Coptic youth went before the officials in charge of drafting said constitution to argue against its inclusion).

This is a crucial distinction, as the average Muslim in Egypt, Somalia, or any other officially Islamic society can be and often is materially poorer and has fewer prospects to lift themselves out of that than their nearest Christian equivalent has. It has long been observed that Christians have higher rates of immigration out of the Middle East than their Muslim neighbors precisely because Christians tend to have more pre-existing contacts with and an easier time adjusting to life in richer western, at least nominally or historically Christian societies than Muslims do. I would only say that we do not make Muslims embrace their religion in fundamentally anti-non-Muslim ways (and of course, plenty do not do so to begin with; I can only assume that they don't see the conflict that Qutb et al. argued is there), so it would be too much to lay Muslim failures in this area at the foot of non-Muslims in general or in every case. The thing to realize or keep in mind even when adding these shades of nuance to the picture is that none of this changes the structure of Islamic societies at all, which is fundamentally against the non-Muslim in every case on entirely Islamic religious grounds. Muhammad's god did not decide that Muslims and non-Muslims should be forever unequal for no reason or for any later 'orientalist' reason, y'know? Muhammad predated Edward Said by just a bit! And besides, as I'm sure you know, Orientalism is only incidentally entangled with Islam by dint of the part of the world it concerns and the dominant religion there. That is to say that it is equally applicable to the Christian (Yazidi, Mandaean, etc.) minorities of that same area, even if the result is sometimes different, with 'positive exoticizing' often outweighing negative stereotyping.

That doesn't make people moral monsters, it makes them human. I think there's a tendency to other-ize and exoticise Muslims in the US (not aiming this directly at you, but just towards the general discussion), without considering the history that Orientalism plays in western culture's conceptualization of that part of the world.

I agree with you, though I would add as I have to everything so far that this explanation can only be taken so far. At some point you have to deal with Islam as it is in the places where it predominates, where it has done so for the most part for far longer than most western countries have even existed in any form that we would recognize today. As much blame as they and more importantly the empires they then represented deserve for making the Middle East the quagmire we know it as, Mark Sykes and François Georges-Picot were not followers of any form of Islamic jurisprudence, nor were they members in the army of ibn al-'As, which is the force that was ultimately responsible for setting into motion the remaking of Egypt as an Islamic society, which meant placing non-Muslims at the bottom of the social and political order as soon as was practically possible (as likewise happened in Syria, Mesopotamia, etc.). Muslims did that themselves many centuries ago, and they did so because their prophet who provided them their example of how to be is recorded to have said such gems as "Let there not be two religions in Arabia", and "I have been ordered to fight people until they declare that there is no god but God" (the Islamic credo, of course). That's got nothing to do with "western culture's conceptualization of that part of the world."
 
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