Ecumenical Patriarch says those who "rebel" against the Council of Crete must be dealt with

ArmyMatt

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I like how Abp Michael of NY looks at it. there is definitely some good stuff that came out of Crete, so we can look at it as a pre-Concilliar gathering as a way to set up for an actual Council where all bishops are invited.
 
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Orthodoxjay1

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A Statement was released by the Romanian patriarchate about the Council and the people from the Greek and Russian Churches rebelling against it in a fanatical and harmful manner, and creating division not only in their own canonical boundaries, but even going to Romanian parishes to instigate division.

Some bits of it below, for the full text see

Communique: Any clarification regarding faith must be made in ecclesial communion, not in disunion - Basilica.ro

Fascinating info about the Romanian Patriarch heirarchs supporting the Ecumenical Patriarch. My priest who Romanian, says back in Romania, on the ground level that quite a few priests have spoken out against the Council.
 
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buzuxi02

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I like how Abp Michael of NY looks at it. there is definitely some good stuff that came out of Crete, so we can look at it as a pre-Concilliar gathering as a way to set up for an actual Council where all bishops are invited.

Really like what? The marriage document opens the door for gay and transgender church weddings. The relations document makes no sense other than promoting the branch theory. And all of these bishops who took part in drawing up these documents have made themselves look like buffoons who drew them up after one too many shots of ouzo.
I mean read St. Cyril's epistle against Nestorius presented at Ephesus in 431 Ad or the Horos of Chalcedon with the Cretin documents. Compare the eloquence and clarity of those documents with the 5th grade level texts of Crete.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Really like what? The marriage document opens the door for gay and transgender church weddings. The relations document makes no sense other than promoting the branch theory. And all of these bishops who took part in drawing up these documents have made themselves look like buffoons who drew them up after one too many shots of ouzo.
I mean read St. Cyril's epistle against Nestorius presented at Ephesus in 431 Ad or the Horos of Chalcedon with the Cretin documents. Compare the eloquence and clarity of those documents with the 5th grade level texts of Crete.

oh I would have to ask him. certainly the vagueness is a problem, but I seem to remember him saying there was some good stuff from Crete that can be officially accepted. obviously, not all of Crete is good, and he like many have some reservations about some of the more vague statements.
 
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tapi

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Any links to in-depth critiques of the council? I have seen a lot of statements against it but none of them seem to offer any clarification of the charges they lay down. It would be great to read stuff on this with some actual theological substance
 
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buzuxi02

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Here is point 10 of the document on marriage and ints impediments:

10.The Church does not allow for her members to contract same-sex unions or any other form of cohabitation apart from marriage. The Church exerts all possible pastoral efforts to help her members who enter into such unions understand the true meaning of repentance and love as blessed by the Church.

Huh??? Who wrote this? So if the marriage rite can be adapted for same sex couples than its legit

Here is another gem from the 'Mission in todays world' document

2.On this basis, it is essential to develop inter-Christian cooperation in every direction for the protection of human dignity and of course for the good of peace, so that the peace-keeping efforts of all Christians without exception may acquire greater weight and significance.
As a presupposition for a wider co-operation in this regard the common acceptance of the highest value of the human person may be useful. The various local Orthodox Churches can contribute to inter-religious understanding and co-operation for the peaceful co-existence and harmonious living together in society, without this involving any religious syncretism.


Interchristian cooperation in every direction to protect human dignity. Most christian sects approve of abortion and euthanasia, what kind of cooperation are they talking about? And what in hell does the phrase 'acceptance of the highest value of the human person may be useful" imply?

And of course the new branch theory where everyone is under an umbrella of subsidiary sects. Is the Church a conglomerate? Or is the Church just a subsidiary of this conglomerate?

In particular, she has played a leading role in the contemporary search for ways and means to restore the unity of those who believe in Christ, and she has participated in the Ecumenical Movement from its outset, and has contributed to its formation and further development. Moreover, the Orthodox Church, thanks to the ecumenical and loving spirit which distinguishes her, praying as divinely commanded that all men may be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4), has always worked for the restoration of Christian unity. Hence, Orthodox participation in the movement to restore unity with other Christians in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is in no way foreign to the nature and history of the Orthodox Church, but rather represents a consistent expression of the apostolic faith and tradition in a new historical circumstances.

Now here is how the 6th Ecumenical council response after issuing a definition of the faith:

These things, therefore, with all diligence and care having been formulated by us, we define that it be permitted to no one to bring forward, or to write, or to compose, or to think, or to teach a different faith. Whosoever shall presume to compose a different faith, or to propose, or teach, or hand to those wishing to be converted to the knowledge of the truth, from the Gentiles or Jews, or from any heresy, any different Creed; or to introduce a new voice or invention of speech to subvert these things which now have been determined by us, all these, if they be Bishops or clerics let them be deposed, the Bishops from the Episcopate, the clerics from the clergy; but if they be monks or laymen: let them be anathematized.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Any links to in-depth critiques of the council? I have seen a lot of statements against it but none of them seem to offer any clarification of the charges they lay down. It would be great to read stuff on this with some actual theological substance

Fr Peter Heers has a lot of stuff from the synods that oppose Crete. and a lot seem to reference earlier criticisms that happened prior to Crete being called, so you might have to go back a ways.
 
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ZaidaBoBaida

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"Most christian sects approve of abortion and euthanasia, what kind of cooperation are they talking about?"

Wrong. Only the extremely liberal denominations like Episcopalians and Presbyterians approve of abortion and euthanasia. Baptists, Assembly of God, Church of God, etc - would all condemn those things.
 
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All4Christ

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"Most christian sects approve of abortion and euthanasia, what kind of cooperation are they talking about?"

Wrong. Only the extremely liberal denominations like Episcopalians and Presbyterians approve of abortion and euthanasia. Baptists, Assembly of God, Church of God, etc - would all condemn those things.
Not to mention Catholics and the conservative counterparts of the liberal denominations.
 
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ZaidaBoBaida

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Not to mention Catholics and the conservative counterparts of the liberal denominations.

Exactly, I would hazard a guess that supposed Christians who are in favor of abortion are actually in the minority by a lot.
 
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buzuxi02

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"Most christian sects approve of abortion and euthanasia, what kind of cooperation are they talking about?"

Wrong. Only the extremely liberal denominations like Episcopalians and Presbyterians approve of abortion and euthanasia. Baptists, Assembly of God, Church of God, etc - would all condemn those things.

You are right about this. But the only problem is the document does not really have these groups in mind at all. The ecumenism in Europe is centered around Anglicans, Presbyterians and various Lutheran state churches possibly the so called old catholics, as well. Basically the liberal liturgical churches that accept the new baptismal theology. The ultra-liberal WCC organization is mentioned in said document as well.
 
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All4Christ

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Exactly, I would hazard a guess that supposed Christians who are in favor of abortion are actually in the minority by a lot.
Considering the portion made up by Orthodox and Catholic.....I'm pretty sure you are right!
 
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Dewi Sant

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I fail to see how this thread is beneficial to anyone's faith, furthermore the source presented by the OP is opinionated and seeks division.

As exciting as it is to speculate and slander, can we please return to the specks in our own eyes?


2243761691_1409df66b0_m.jpg
 
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Svitlana

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My priest told me
(We're Facebook buddies) that the council falling flat was the Holy Spirit guiding us and saving the Church from having a Vatican II moment. Glory to Jesus Christ!

Roman Catholics have considered the Council in Crete as nothing but an "Orthodox Vatican II" from the very beginning. They hoped it would help them to absorb the Orthodox Church.
The idea that "...the historic Holy and Great Council of the Orthodox Church, which took place in Crete this past June, sought to bridge the gap between Orthodox and non-Orthodox churches..." is repeatedly expressed in the article published in the Crisis Magazine ("A Voice for the Faithful Catholic Laity"):
http://www.crisismagazine.com/2017/orthodox-council-unity

However, in the end Patriarch Bartholomew neither fulfilled the expectations of the West nor made any difference for the Orthodox World.
Anyway, it's a pity for me that the Council addressed ecumenism, fasting, marriage (on which it said nothing clear or new) - and failed to even slightly touch on the Ukrainian issue that is crucial for about 30 mln Orthodox believers in my country!
 
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