The supremacy of the popes (of Rome).

Xeno.of.athens

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Quoted from The Faith of our Fathers by Cardinal Gibbons:

The Supremacy Of The Popes.​

The Church did not die with Peter. It was destined to continue till the end of time; consequently, whatever official prerogatives were conferred on Peter were not to cease at his death, but were to be handed down to his successors from generation to generation. The Church is in all ages as much in need of a Supreme Ruler as it was in the days of the Apostles. Nay, more; as the Church is now more widely diffused than it was then, and is ruled by frailer men, it is more than ever in need of a central power to preserve its unity of faith and uniformity of discipline.​
Whatever privileges, therefore, were conferred on Peter which may be considered essential to the government of the Church are inherited by the Bishops of Rome, as successors of the Prince of the Apostles; just as the constitutional powers given to George Washington have devolved on the present incumbent of the Presidential chair.​
Peter, it is true, besides the prerogatives inherent in his office, possessed also the gift of inspiration and the power of working miracles. These two latter gifts are not claimed by the Pope, as they were personal to Peter and by no means essential to the government of the Church. God acts toward His Church as we deal with a tender sapling. When we first plant it we water it and soften the clay about its roots. But when it takes deep root we leave it to the care of Nature's laws. In like manner, when Christ first planted His Church He nourished its infancy by miraculous agency; but when it grew to be a tree of fair proportions He left it to be governed by the general laws of His Providence.​
From what I have said you can easily infer that the arguments in favor of Peter's Primacy have equal weight in demonstrating the supremacy of the Popes.​
As the present question, however, is a subject of vast importance, I shall endeavor to show, from incontestable historical evidence, that the Popes have always, from the days of the Apostles, continued to exercise supreme jurisdiction not only in the Western Church till the Reformation, but also throughout the Eastern Church till the great schism of the ninth century.​
First—Take the question of appeals. An appeal is never made from a superior to an inferior court, nor even from one court to another of co-ordinate jurisdiction. We do not appeal from Washington to Richmond, but from Richmond to Washington. Now, if we find the See of Rome from the foundation of Christianity entertaining and deciding cases of appeal from the Oriental churches; if we find that her decision was final and irrevocable, we must conclude that the supremacy of Rome over all the churches is an undeniable fact.​
Let me give you a few illustrations:​
To begin with Pope St. Clement, who was the third successor of St. Peter, and who is laudably mentioned by St. Paul in one of his Epistles. Some dissension and scandal having occurred in the church of Corinth, the matter is brought to the notice of Pope Clement. He at once exercises his supreme authority by writing letters of remonstrance and admonition to the Corinthians. And so great was the reverence entertained for these Epistles by the faithful of Corinth that, for a century later, it was customary to have them publicly read in their churches. Why did the Corinthians appeal to Rome, far away in the West, and not to Ephesus, so near home in the East, where the Apostle St. John still lived? Evidently because the jurisdiction of Ephesus was local, while that of Rome was universal.​
About the year 190 the question regarding the proper day for celebrating Easter was agitated in the East, and referred to Pope St. Victor I. The Eastern Church generally celebrated Easter on the day on which the Jews kept the Passover, while in the West it was observed then, as it is now, on the first Sunday after the full moon of the vernal equinox. St. Victor directs the Eastern churches, for the sake of uniformity, to conform to the practice of the West, and his instructions are universally followed.​
St. Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage, was martyred in 258.​
From his appeals to Pope St. Cornelius and to Pope St. Stephen, especially on the subject of baptism, from his writings and correspondence, as well as from the whole tenor of his administration, it is quite evident that Cyprian, as well as the African Episcopate, upheld the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome.​
Dionysius, Bishop of Rome, about the middle of the third century, having heard that the Patriarch of Alexandria erred on some points of faith, demands an explanation of the suspected Prelate, who, in obedience to his superior, promptly vindicates his own orthodoxy.​
St. Athanasius, the great patriarch of Alexandria, appeals in the fourth century to Pope Julius I. from an unjust decision rendered against him by the Oriental Bishops, and the Pope168 reverses the sentence of the Eastern Council.​
St. Basil, Archbishop of Cæsarea, in the same century has recourse in his afflictions to the protection of Pope Damasus.​
St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople, appeals in the beginning of the fifth century to Pope Innocent I. for a redress of grievances inflicted on him by several Eastern Prelates, and by the Empress Eudoxia of Constantinople.​
St. Cyril appeals to Pope Celestine against Nestorius; Nestorius, also, appeals to the same Pontiff, who takes the side of Cyril.​
In a Synod held in 444, St. Hilary, Archbishop of Arles, in Gaul, deposed Celidonius, Bishop of Besancon, on the ground of an alleged canonical impediment to his consecration. The Bishop appealed to the Holy See, and both he and the Metropolitan personally repaired to Rome, to submit their cause to the judgment of Pope Leo the Great. After a careful investigation, the Pontiff declared the sentence of the Synod invalid, revoked the censure, and restored the deposed Prelate to his See.​
The same Pontiff also rebuked Hilary for having irregularly deposed Projectus from his See.​
The judicial authority of the Pope is emphasized from the circumstance that Hilary was not an arrogant or a rebellious churchman, but an edifying and a zealous Prelate. He is revered by the whole Church as a canonized Saint, and after his death, Leo refers to him as Hilary of happy memory.​
Theodoret, the illustrious historian and Bishop of Cyrrhus, is condemned by the pseudo-council of Ephesus in 449, and appeals to Pope Leo in the following touching language: “I await the decision of your Apostolic See, and I supplicate your Holiness to succor me, who invoke your righteous and just tribunal; and to order me to hasten to you, and to explain to you my teaching, which follows the steps of the Apostles.... I beseech you not to scorn my application. Do not slight my gray hairs.... Above all, I entreat you to teach me whether to put up with this unjust deposition or not; for I await your sentence. If you bid me rest in what has been determined against me, I will rest, and will trouble no man more. I will look for the righteous judgment of our God and Savior. To me, as Almighty God is my Judge, honor and glory are no object, but only the scandal that has been caused; for many of the simpler sort, especially those whom I have rescued from diverse heresies, considering the See which has condemned me, suspect that perhaps I really am a heretic, being incapable themselves of distinguishing accuracy of doctrine.”169 Leo declared the deposition invalid and Theodoret was restored to his See.​
John, Abbot of Constantinople, appeals from the decision of the Patriarch of that city to Pope St. Gregory I., who reverses the sentence of the Patriarch.​
 
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All religious orders have organization, or government, of some kind. In the Church, however, government can be corrupted and cannot be "established" too firmly. There has to be accountability, and in Christianity that accountability comes from apostolic teaching, or the Bible.

There has not been one supreme government within the Church determined, by Christ, to rule over all others. It may enjoy supremacy of size, and carry a corresponding weight. But again, if any Church organization of any size suffers corruption, it loses its weight of authority.

By rule of the Gospel mission, different church traditions were planted in different territories, within different political states. By their very nature, the organization of the Church in each State had to be separate from any one supreme Christian organization. Otherwise, there would be political matters that interfere with matters of Church organization.

This is basically the problem that existed in the late Middle Ages and following. For that reason the Catholic Church in the West has suffered a decline in religious authority.

Today, there are, I believe, many novel introductions into Catholic tradition that should be questioned, but is not questioned within the RCC because of its resistance to any competing authorities. Mariolatry, prayers to dead saints, indulgences, transubstantiation, confession, etc. are various practices that have been questioned but ignored by the RCC because of its supposed "supreme authority."

And so, the worst of the excesses of the RCC is its claim to supreme power in the Church, claiming for the Pope a "fatherhood" beyond that which Peter would ever have claimed. Claiming to be "without error" in certain proclamations is "over the top," in my opinion.

This is sectarianism at its worst, and needs to be addressed as reasonable questions to those who think they have no need to submit to other Christian communions. "Submit yourselves to one another."
 
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BobRyan

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Quoted from The Faith of our Fathers by Cardinal Gibbons:

The Supremacy Of The Popes.​

I don't think anyone has ever doubted the idea that Popes argue for the supremacy of the Popes of Rome.
Or that Roman Catholic Cardinals argue for the supremacy of the Popes of Rome

We all take this as "proof" that they agree with their own doctrine.
The Church did not die with Peter. It was destined to continue till the end of time​
That is a statement we can all agree on.
; consequently, whatever official prerogatives were conferred on Peter were not to cease at his death, but were to be handed down to his successors from generation to generation.​
It is very doubtful that any permissions/blessings/authority held by a given Christian ever in history -- is defacto granted to any other Christian that comes along and claims to "sit in his chair".

That is not something we see in the NT.

In fact there is no such thing in the NT as "succession" for any of the 12 Apostles - other than the official replacement for Judas that we see in Acts 1.
Whatever privileges, therefore, were conferred on Peter which may be considered essential to the government of the Church are inherited by the Bishops of Rome, as successors of the Prince of the Apostles​

And Catholic History shows documented examples in history where multiple successors existed at the same time, all claiming to succeed from the same prior Pope and in some cases appointed by the same group of Cardinals.

The argument seems to be that in the Catholic wars between the various Papal armies against each other -- the method for deciding who the real successor was to be - is essentially "whose army won".

So then there is the list of what the Catholic church calls "wicked Popes".

"Of the twenty-five popes between 955 and 1057, thirteen were appointed by the local aristocracy, while the other twelve were appointed (and no fewer than five dismissed) by the German emperors. The ancient axiom that no one may judge the Pope was still in the law-books, but in practice had long since been set aside. The popes themselves were deeply embroiled in the internecine dynastic warfare of the Roman nobility, and election to the chair of Peter, as we have seen, was frequently a commodity for sale or barter. The Ottonian era had led to a temporary improvement in the characters of the popes, but by the second quarter of the eleventh century standards had crumbled once more. Benedict IX (1032-48), whose election was the result of a systematic campaign of bribery by his father, the Tusculan grandee Count Alberic III, was as bad as any of the popes of the preceding 'dark century'.​
Like his uncle and immediate predecessor John XIX, Benedict was a layman, and was still in his twenties at the time of his election. He was both violent and debauched, and even the Roman populace, hardened as they were to unedifying papal behaviour, could not stomach him. He was eventually deposed in favour of Silvester III (1045). With the help of his family's private army, he was briefly restored in 1045 amid bloody hand-to-hand fighting in the streets of Rome. He was evidently tired of the struggle, however, for he accepted a bribe to abdicate in favour of his godfather, the archpriest John Gratian." - Eamon Duffy, Saints & Sinners: A History of the Popes (Yale University Press, 1997)​


It was the practice among Popes to call each other "antichrist" at the time of Martin Luther, as 3 contemporary popes disputed with each other over who was the real pope -- a practice that Luther himself eventually adopted regarding the office of Pope.
 
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BobRyan

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Why does the Pope not have Peter's ability to raise people from the dead by God's power?
Because they do not "inherit" the gifts, authority and power of the Apostle Peter even when they claim to sit in his "chair".
There were some really bad Popes down through history, so were they part of this "chain"?
If you delete each of them then the chain of succession breaks in a few places since there is no other pope to "inherit" from in some cases.

Paul has a simple rule for knowing who to follow - and it has nothing to do with what chair one is sitting in.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Paul also has a warning for the church
Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

2 Cor 11:
12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
 
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One God and Father of All

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Appeal to authority fallacy occurs when we accept a claim merely because someone tells us that an authority figure supports that claim. An authority figure can be a celebrity, a well-known scientist, or any person whose status and prestige causes us to respect them.
 
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BobRyan

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Let me give you a few illustrations:​
To begin with Pope St. Clement, who was the third successor of St. Peter, and who is laudably mentioned by St. Paul in one of his Epistles​
since this is one of the anchors in your proposal - a few questions are in order

1. Was there ever a "Pope St. Clement"?? did Paul refer to anyone by that title or did anyone in the second century use that title for him?
2. Are there any first or second century documents with such a title for Clement -- published to the second century church?
3. Did any first or second century source claim that Clement "sat in Peter's chair"?? Eusebius is a 4th century source as we all know
4. Was there ever a time when any first or second century Christian called Clement a Pope? or claimed that Clement was handed something by Peter or inherited from Peter?
5. Since Clement is supposedly #4 in the list - is there any first century document/event where someone was handed "the chair" of Peter as number #2 ??
 
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HTacianas

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Why does the Pope not have Peter's ability to raise people from the dead by God's power?
There were some really bad Popes down through history, so were they part of this "chain"?

Yes, the "bad Popes" were part of the chain. And if we're going to use gifts of miracles as signs of authority then a whole lot of people are going to be left out in the cold.
 
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BobRyan

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Yes, the "bad Popes" were part of the chain. And if we're going to use gifts of miracles as signs of authority then a whole lot of people are going to be left out in the cold.
And that includes a great many Popes in history being left out in that case.
 
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One God and Father of All

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And the Ellen White.
They say Peter was the first pope and that he was Head of the Church. The word pope comes from the word papa which means father hence we have the papacy.. The problem for them is that Peter was never referred to as pater (father) or Head of the church. in scripture ther is only one God and Father of all and only one head of the church, Christ.
 
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One God and Father of All

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True -- Ellen White was not a Pope nor in any succession line for Peter.
No one is in a successive line of Peter because he was an apostle and when the 12 died so did apostleship. The requirement for an apostle was to be an eyewitness of the resurrection of Christ.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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They say Peter was the first pope and that he was Head of the Church. The word pope comes from the word papa which means father hence we have the papacy.. The problem for them is that Peter was never referred to as pater (father) or Head of the church. in scripture ther is only one God and Father of all and only one head of the church, Christ.
I do not know why so many people object to the use of the word father in connection with a priest or a bishop.
 
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I do not know why so many people object to the use of the word father in connection with a priest or a bishop.
In scripture, a father is one of your parents OR your Father in heaven. No priest is my father (parent) or my God in heaven.
When the scripture says “call no man your father” it obviously excludes you parent because that often occurs. There is also the idea of becoming a son of Abraham through Christ but that refers to being adopted into the family of faith by whom Abraham was the one whom the promises were made. The father of the faithful.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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In scripture, a father is one of your parents OR your Father in heaven. No priest is my father (parent) or my God in heaven.
When the scripture says “call no man your father” it obviously excludes you parent because that often occurs. There is also the idea of becoming a son of Abraham through Christ but that refers to being adopted into the family of faith by whom Abraham was the one whom the promises were made. The father of the faithful.
Are you familiar with St Paul's letters to the Corinthians?
 
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Micmac

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I do not know why so many people object to the use of the word father in connection with a priest or a bishop.
Because that's what they're taught by high profile anti-Catholic folks.

What does "call no man father" mean - and WHO was it directed to? Does that mean I can't call my father - father?

Does it mean I can't call my pastor 'pastor?' Look at who Jesus is talking about - the Scribes and Pharisees. Look at what Jesus says about them and put this all in context.

Jesus said to Jewish believers -

All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

So he's telling them that they should respect the scribes and the Pharisees - not because of their conduct, but because they "sit in Moses’ seat". In other words, they should be respected because they hold an office of authority, ordained by God and goes on to say the Pharisees are bad examples.

But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments - And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

So what's the message Jesus is getting at? The Scribes and Pharisees acted religious and loved to be seen sitting at the most honored seats in Jewish banquets, festivals, and in the synagogue. They loved titles of honor like "Rabbi and father." They loved it when people admired their 'spirituality'.

We have to put all of this in the context of what Jesus says between verses 8 - 12.

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Is Jesus contradicting himself from what he said in Verse 3?

All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Better translated - "Whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do."

So what is Jesus' message? Jesus is warning Jewish believers NOT to put the honor of men - (specifically the Pharisees), He is saying NOT to give excessive spiritual honor to people in authority because human honor is NOT above the honor that belongs to the Father - God.

Jesus was called Rabbi, Paul called himself father.

The message -

“But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I’ve read them many times. I’ve also studied them.
That is good, then you will be familiar with the passage where St Paul refers to himself as the father of the church in Corinth.
I write not these things to confound you: but I admonish you as my dearest children. For if you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet not many fathers. For in Christ Jesus, by the gospel, I have begotten you.​
[1Co 4:14-15]
 
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