Ecumenical Patriarch says those who "rebel" against the Council of Crete must be dealt with

[Constantine the Sinner]

We recall this ecclesiological and canonical principle–that matters are to be examined and decided upon synodically–which is the cornerstone of the life, saving mission, and witness of our Orthodox Church in the world, for both Your Very Beloved and Most-Diligent Eminence and the Most Holy Church of Greece, and, in light of our responsibility as Ecumenical Patriarch and President of the Holy and Great Council which assembled in Crete, and as guardian of the dogmatic and canonical order of the Eastern Church, we call Your attention to the following serious issue which troubles us personally together with the Synod of the Mother Church.

Patriarch of Constantinople's Letter to the Archbishop of Greece: Defrock and Sever Communion With Those Opposed to Our Council in Crete | Troubling and Divisive Intervention Into the Internal Affairs of Another Local Church Latest Show of Papal Pretentions

 

[rusmeister]

It just seems to me that with no real Church around him, the Patriarchate of Constantinople is increasingly irrelevant.

 

[ArmyMatt]

and synodal decisions at the Ecumenical Level are confirmed or rejected by the whole Church. not a select number of delegates per jurisdiction.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I heard a priest recently say he wished someone would throw a pipe bomb in the EP's house and drive away. LOL

Not exactly what Christ wants us to think, but it does sum up the mood of some clergy toward this guy.

 

[ArmyMatt]

we gotta be careful though. the EP is still a canonical bishop and he should be treated with the respect his office holds, even if we disagree with what he is saying/doing. even St. Cyril was respectful toward Nestorius as a bishop, even when pointing out how much of a heretic he was.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Do some Orthodox take issue with this man? All I know is that it seems that he and Pope Francis are quite close.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Do some Orthodox take issue with this man? All I know is that it seems that he and Pope Francis are quite close.

In a word, yes. He hasn't actually done anything to upset people (since the Crete thing, originally intended to be the Orthodox Vatican II, was a fiasco), but he's said some things that are liable to peeve.

 

[buzuxi02]

So I guess this means, I have been excommunicated from the GOARCH?

 

[anna ~ grace]

In a word, yes. He hasn't actually done anything to upset people (since the Crete thing, originally intended to be the Orthodox Vatican II, was a fiasco), but he's said some things that are liable to peeve.

Is he, in a sense, trying to excommunicate those in the Orthodox world who withdrew from / boycotted Crete? Why, and what authority gives him the right to do so?

 

[All4Christ]

Is he, in a sense, trying to excommunicate those in the Orthodox world who withdrew from / boycotted Crete? Why, and what authority gives him the right to do so?

He doesn't has the right to do that across all of Orthodoxy. Within his own Patriarchate (or whatever it is called...I always mix it up), he may be able to start the motion for that. @ArmyMatt - wouldn't a local council for the Patriarchate have to be held to sever communion?

 

[~Anastasia~]

I have to admit, I don't like the way this is looking/sounding. I realize there have been hiccups in Orthodoxy, but sometimes things are slow to be repaired, aren't they?

I wouldn't like to find myself having to make a decision, or being not in communion with other Orthodox.

There is an Antiochian parish nearby, and my SF is Antiochian. But I dearly love our priest and our community. I am fairly sure Father will follow his Bishop, whatever that means.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

So I guess this means, I have been excommunicated from the GOARCH?

No, the Patriarch of a Church can't unilaterally excommunicate anyone who falls under that jurisdiction.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

I have to admit, I don't like the way this is looking/sounding. I realize there have been hiccups in Orthodoxy, but sometimes things are slow to be repaired, aren't they?

I wouldn't like to find myself having to make a decision, or being not in communion with other Orthodox.

There is an Antiochian parish nearby, and my SF is Antiochian. But I dearly love our priest and our community. I am fairly sure Father will follow his Bishop, whatever that means.

I wouldn't worry too much, Anastasia, the EP isn't going to press the issue, his main concern is that clergy from the Church of Greece are vocally repudiating Crete, as well as meeting with clergy from Churches that did not participate to talk about that. The Greek Church has chosen simply not to reply to his letter.

I'm GOARCH, and I'm not worried in the least, even though my priest is very partisan regarding the EP (he even went so far as to suggest Bartholomew would probably end up being canonized) because he went to seminary, and maintains friendships, with men who would later become bishops close to the EP (he's a great priest, though).

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Is he, in a sense, trying to excommunicate those in the Orthodox world who withdrew from / boycotted Crete? Why, and what authority gives him the right to do so?

He doesn't have the authority or right, but he's trying to pressure the Greek Church (which is not under him, unlike the Greeks in America) to do so. After deliberation, they chose to not respond.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I wouldn't worry too much, Anastasia, the EP isn't going to press the issue, his main concern is that clergy from the Church of Greece are vocally repudiating Crete, as well as meeting with clergy from Churches that did not participate to talk about that. The Greek Church has chosen simply not to reply to his letter.

I'm GOARCH, and I'm not worried in the least, even though my priest is very partisan regarding the EP (he even went so far as to suggest Bartholomew would probably end up being canonized) because he went to seminary, and maintains friendships, with men who would later become bishops close to the EP (he's a great priest, though).

Thank you, Constantine. I hope nothing comes of it at the parish level. I purposely have not looked much into higher-level Church politics (or any Church politics for that matter) except to assure myself it wasn't an overwhelming issue.

I actually don't know my priest's opinion. He is respectful and reads to us what is sent from the EP, and avoids pushing in any direction when explaining it. He focuses more on what we should do in following Christ. I do suspect he will give due respect and as I said, follow his Bishop. I think Father is quite careful. But I don't think he has exaggerated opinions.

I just don't really want to get caught in unpleasantness or have it touch our parish, nor do I wish such to affect any of us. But I realize no man is perfect.

Lord have mercy.

And thank you for your reply.

 

[ArmyMatt]

He doesn't has the right to do that across all of Orthodoxy. Within his own Patriarchate (or whatever it is called...I always mix it up), he may be able to start the motion for that. @ArmyMatt - wouldn't a local council for the Patriarchate have to be held to sever communion?

he can for himself, (ie he can refuse them communion or commemoration if the come to the Phanar or whatever), but it would take the local synod to do anything. of course he has the right to ask, as unprecedented as that may be.

 

[Phronema]

As an aspiring Orthodox, I have a couple of questions. Hopefully they're not inappropriate.

If I'm out of line asking these questions, I have no problem holding my tongue altogether.

Is there any particular reason the Russian Orthodox didn't participate in the Holy and Great Council of the Orthodox Church? It comes across as potentially nationalistic. The same with the Georgians and Bulgarians. Also, I understand the Antiochian Patriarch is upset that the Jerusalem Patriarch instilled a Bishop in Qatar. Is this nationalistic as well? Or am I completely mistaken?

As a result none of them attended the Pan-Orthodox meeting. So what are the reasons if I'm not being offensive by asking why?

Also, I don't mean to spark a debate, I'm genuinely curious.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Is there any particular reason the Russian Orthodox didn't participate in the Holy and Great Council of the Orthodox Church? It comes across as potentially nationalistic. The same with the Georgians and Bulgarians. Also, I understand the Antiochian Patriarch is upset that the Jerusalem Patriarch instilled a Bishop in Qatar. Is this nationalistic as well? Or am I completely mistaken?

As a result none of them attended the Pan-Orthodox meeting. So what are the reasons if I'm not being offensive by asking why?

most who did not go did not like the definitions that we given and some of the statements on the road to Crete. they are too ambiguous for many of the more conservative bishops. many are open to this being a pre-concilliar meeting to lead to an actual council.

 

[Phronema]

@ArmyMatt Thank you for the response, sir. I'm quite lost on the definition of "pre-consilliar".

Also when you say "an actual council" are you referring to ALL the Orthodox Churches represented? This took half a century to coordinate

I pray, even though I'm not Orthodox yet, I pray for unity for the Orthodox.

 

[ZaidaBoBaida]

My understanding is some of the churches had a problem with the pre-council documents, but were blown off when they expressed concerns. So, they didn't go.

The press keeps playing the EP up as "Pope in the East," and it seems to me that he has started believing that hype.