Eastern Orthodox View of the Merits of Works

[ArmyMatt]

You are saved/ declared righteous/ justified by faith apart from works.

yes, and I agree, but that is not all that St Paul says. he does say works play a part in our salvation.

 

[~Anastasia~]

When I was ten I was born again. The reason I know I was born again, is because, even at that age I became aware of my sin. I was fully convinced salvation/ entering heaven hinged on works/ observing the law.
Over the next five years I became consumed by sin and feared hell when I died. Plus I was wracked with guilt and shame.
I gave up going to church, for i could not observe the law/ had no works.
Fortunately for me God was gracious. At the age of nineteen he opened my eyes to grace. I dared to believe I could be a christian after all for my justification before God was Christ, not me observing the law/ works.
But what of the sin? I didn't want it for I had made a commitment to Christ.
There was a particular sin That i had been a slave to for years, it involved breaking one of the TC.
I got down on my knees, asked God to deal with it and left it in his hands. For the next few days, I broke the Ten commandments frequently due to this particular sin. But for the first Time in my life, I would not let myself feel condemnation. I was saved because Christ was my right standing before God. I stood on Paul's message. I was saved/ accepted/ justified apart from works/ observing the law. And I stood on This even while i was blatantly breaking one of the TC.
After four days of this, the sin I had been a slave to for years stopped!

Paul wrote:

For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace
Rom6:14.

It truly is the greatest message ever preached since Christ walked This earth. The message Paul preached.
Sadly too few accept it

I'm sorry you were in something pretty close to despair, and thankfully God is good and brought you out of that.

I agree that sin is not to be our master. And I can't speak for how this variously plays out in anyone else's life.

Let's just say that I would not be surprised if a person could be confessing their sins on a regular basis and never have to admit that they struggle with one of the Ten Commandments.

Of course, I also wouldn't be surprised if someone else might find that they had to continually confess one of them of a "mental" type ... perhaps covetous thoughts, or lustful thoughts, might plague someone for a while. Cultivating purity of the mind tends to be more difficult than overcoming sinful acts.

But the idea of fearing rejection by God because one has committed a sin - that implies a kind of sliding in and out of salvation that I used to be under at some denominations I have been associated with. It is also an implication that we are "earning" our salvation, and we reject that. It just isn't the right way of looking at it.

That's not the same thing as saying that the way we live has an effect on our faith, which is bottom line the role of "works" in regard to faith and grace.

Remember too that we don't define "grace" in terms of some kind of commodity with which God "pays for" our sins, or purchases our salvation. Grace is the energy of God Himself, it is Him working in our lives.

It really is almost that we speak a different language. Maybe there is some benefit to those words we don't translate (there are a few) ... I'm starting to think maybe it would be better in discussions with non-Orthodox if "grace" was one of those words -- but then we would probably be accused by some of denying grace altogether.

 

[stuart lawrence]

yes, and I agree, but that is not all that St Paul says. he does say works play a part in our salvation.

Paul is emphatic, being in a saved state I APART from works.
Justification before God is APART from works.
Righteousness is apart from works
You don't receive the holy spirit by observing the law/ works, but by believing what you heard.
I can only repeat. To the natural mind of man such belief is a licence to sin, a licence to sit on your backside and do nothing. Therefore, man has to attach, in one form or another, works/ observing the law to being in a saved state / salvation/ justified/ righteous before God.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I'm sorry you were in something pretty close to despair, and thankfully God is good and brought you out of that.

I agree that sin is not to be our master. And I can't speak for how this variously plays out in anyone else's life.

Let's just say that I would not be surprised if a person could be confessing their sins on a regular basis and never have to admit that they struggle with one of the Ten Commandments.

Of course, I also wouldn't be surprised if someone else might find that they had to continually confess one of them of a "mental" type ... perhaps covetous thoughts, or lustful thoughts, might plague someone for a while. Cultivating purity of the mind tends to be more difficult than overcoming sinful acts.

But the idea of fearing rejection by God because one has committed a sin - that implies a kind of sliding in and out of salvation that I used to be under at some denominations I have been associated with. It is also an implication that we are "earning" our salvation, and we reject that. It just isn't the right way of looking at it.

That's not the same thing as saying that the way we live has an effect on our faith, which is bottom line the role of "works" in regard to faith and grace.

Remember too that we don't define "grace" in terms of some kind of commodity with which God "pays for" our sins, or purchases our salvation. Grace is the energy of God Himself, it is Him working in our lives.

It really is almost that we speak a different language. Maybe there is some benefit to those words we don't translate (there are a few) ... I'm starting to think maybe it would be better in discussions with non-Orthodox if "grace" was one of those words -- but then we would probably be accused by some of denying grace altogether.

I firmly believe grace is the fact Christ paid for my sins.
My righteousness / justification before God is faith in Christ, faith in what he did for me at Calvary. Paul tells us this righteousness is for the whole of our christian lives, from first to last. Rom1:17

How can this not be the grace of God?

I could never be good enough to enter heaven. I dont have to be, for Jesus died for me, he is my rightstanding before the Father.
Because of what he did for me, not because of what I can work for by my own effort I am exonerated before God, I can have peace.
How can that not be the grace of God?

 

[abacabb3]

I cannot comment much on the direction of the thread since my last comment, but I have another question for Matt, Anastasia, and anyone else. It is the issue of chronology and salvation. Pardon my chronological mind, but I cannot help but think it is proper to think of us being accounted as sinners according to our works but, in Christ, having this radically changed to righteousness in a moment of time.

What made me think of this was Rom 1:17. Reading Saint Chrysostom's comments on the passage:

For since it is possible to be saved, yet not without shame (as many are saved of those, who by the royal humanity are released from punishment), that no one may suspect this upon hearing of safety, he adds also righteousness; and righteousness, not your own, but that of God; hinting also the abundance of it and the facility. For you do not achieve it by toilings and labors, but you receive it by a gift from above, contributing one thing only from your own store, believing. Then since his statement did not seem credible, if the adulterer and effeminate person, and robber of graves, and magician, is not only to be suddenly freed from punishment but to become just, and just too with the highest righteousness; he confirms his assertion from the Old Testament.

Can we agree that the way Chrysostom writes about the topic, chronologically, is proper? We were unrighteous and then suddenly, by faith*, we receive forgiveness for our sins and the complete righteousness of God by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? There was a moment where we were not righteous and then a moment that we were, and by the grace of God we persevere in this faith and righteousness to then end, in which we then experience Theosis?

*Or implicit faith in baptism.

 

[abacabb3]

yes, and I agree, but that is not all that St Paul says. he does say works play a part in our salvation.

Are you referencing that "faith working through love," (Gal 5:6) that it has a dynamic, living, reality and not a mere matter of opinion?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Paul is emphatic, being in a saved state I APART from works.
Justification before God is APART from works.
Righteousness is apart from works
You don't receive the holy spirit by observing the law/ works, but by believing what you heard.
I can only repeat. To the natural mind of man such belief is a licence to sin, a licence to sit on your backside and do nothing. Therefore, man has to attach, in one form or another, works/ observing the law to being in a saved state / salvation/ justified/ righteous before God.

and St Paul also points out that good works flow from right faith. he commands us to work out our salvation with fear and great trembling, and calls other Christians his coworkers.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Are you referencing that "faith working through love," (Gal 5:6) that it has a dynamic, living, reality and not a mere matter of opinion?

and that we were created for good works. you nailed it about faith being a living, dynamic reality of relationship.

 

[stuart lawrence]

and St Paul also points out that good works flow from right faith. he commands us to work out our salvation with fear and great trembling, and calls other Christians his coworkers.

It is a hard thing for most to accept. For man is conditions to believe you get what you strive for by your effort.

Salvation/ acceptance/ justification before God is by faith, APART from works. But true saving faith brings forth fruit.
Many, then focus on the fruit and says works are therefore necessary to being saved. This is in conflict with numerous statements of Paul's.

BTW

Even James wrote:

For whoever keeps the whole law, yet stumbles at JUST ONE POINT is guilty of breaking all of it
James 2:10

The only way you can avoid stumbling at just one point is if you have achieved sinless perfection.

So spiritually speaking, it is sinless perfection or you stand guilty of breaking the entire law

 

[abacabb3]

and that we were created for good works. you nailed it about faith being a living, dynamic reality of relationship.

Yes, we were saved by grace through faith for works. To quote my Orthodox Study Bible on Eph 2:8-10-- "[G]ood works flow out of authentic faith. Works cannot earn us this great treasure--it is a pure gift--but those who receive the gift do good. We are not saved by good works, but for good works" (p.1600, emphasis in original).

We cannot speak of salvation or justification without works, because faith HAS works.* I think in all of this Protestants get so hung up on the moment we are initially justified before God, they forget that their justification and faith is an ongoing reality.

To use an example, I was married on June 9, 2012 but I am still part of a marriage. My marriage is not simply a past event in a moment of time, but a continuing reality. The Scripture says, "if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin" (1 John 1:7). Our cleansing from sin is not merely a past reality, but it is ongoing if we continue to walk with Christ.

Matt, I am coming out of Protestantism, so if I am getting something wrong here I would seriously appreciate your insight. I would also appreciate your insight on Chrysostom's comments above

*This excludes extreme circumstances such as deathbed conversions.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Salvation/ acceptance/ justification before God is by faith, APART from works. But true saving faith brings forth fruit.
Many, then focus on the fruit and says works are therefore necessary to being saved. This is in conflict with numerous statements of Paul's.

aside from that is not what we teach or believe. salvation is not simply by faith, or else Paul would not have said to work out our salvation. Christ Himself commands good works. salvation is not simply believing in Christ only.

For whoever keeps the whole law, yet stumbles at JUST ONE POINT is guilty of breaking all of it

right, no one is disputing this.

The only way you can avoid stumbling at just one point is if you have achieved sinless perfection.

right, no one is disputing this either.

So spiritually speaking, it is sinless perfection or you stand guilty of breaking the entire law

right again, and no one is disputing this either.

simply saying that works are a part of salvation, does not mean we can earn our way into heaven. you are defining the role of works in a way that we don't believe.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yes, we were saved by grace through faith for works. To quote my Orthodox Study Bible on Eph 2:8-10-- "[G]ood works flow out of authentic faith. Works cannot earn us this great treasure--it is a pure gift--but those who receive the gift do good. We are not saved by good works, but for good works" (p.1600, emphasis in original).

We cannot speak of salvation or justification without works, because faith HAS works.* I think in all of this Protestants get so hung up on the moment we are initially justified before God, they forget that their justification and faith is an ongoing reality.

To use an example, I was married on June 9, 2012 but I am still part of a marriage. My marriage is not simply a past event in a moment of time, but a continuing reality. The Scripture says, "if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin" (1 John 1:7). Our cleansing from sin is not merely a past reality, but it is ongoing if we continue to walk with Christ.

Matt, I am coming out of Protestantism, so if I am getting something wrong here I would seriously appreciate your insight. I would also appreciate your insight on Chrysostom's comments above

*This excludes extreme circumstances such as deathbed conversions.

I think you hit the nail on the head. salvation is in the past, present, and future tenses in Scripture. so when it comes to works, the fact that we can do any good is only because God's grace is at work.

 

[abacabb3]

It is a hard thing for most to accept. For man is conditions to believe you get what you strive for by your effort.

Salvation/ acceptance/ justification before God is by faith, APART from works. But true saving faith brings forth fruit.
Many, then focus on the fruit and says works are therefore necessary to being saved. This is in conflict with numerous statements of Paul's.

BTW

Even James wrote:

For whoever keeps the whole law, yet stumbles at JUST ONE POINT is guilty of breaking all of it
James 2:10

The only way you can avoid stumbling at just one point is if you have achieved sinless perfection.

So spiritually speaking, it is sinless perfection or you stand guilty of breaking the entire law

Stuart, it may help if you read my comments with Matt on this thread. I am just beginning conversion (I presume it takes a couple of years) so I still speak Protestantese. You may object less to Orthodox theology worded in the language we both speak .

 

[ArmyMatt]

that's a good point. often the way we Orthodox speak of works is not the same as how the modern West speaks of them.

 

[abacabb3]

that's a good point. often the way we Orthodox speak of works is not the same as how the modern West speaks of them.

Yes, thank God I have spent so much time reading the Fathers. You realize that they use words we are used to (justified, sanctified, illuminated, etcetera) with distinctly different meanings than modern, Western parlance. Orthodoxy retains a lot of their original meaning and takes for granted that this is what they always mean, and if someone objects to "works" with these entirely different implications (of merit), the Orthodox do not know how to perceive this other than a rejection of clear Scriptural teaching. The West (Catholics and Protestants) have a sort of arrogance that everyone is going to take their definitions, and paradigms, for granted.

That's why I was floored when I read John Beck's treatment on salvation. It was exactly what I read in the Bible and in the Fathers. It was purposely worded in language that I understood. When I realized what the Orthodox meant about salvation, I took it heart and worked it out with everyone here. But, it meant working past words that my mind applied differently than you guys. Thankfully the Fathers prepared me for that.

 

[abacabb3]

It is worth noting that not many remain Protestant after immersing themselves in the Fathers, probably for the above reason. That, or they reject the Fathers outright and presume no one understood Christianity until the 1500s.

 

[stuart lawrence]

aside from that is not what we teach or believe. salvation is not simply by faith, or else Paul would not have said to work out our salvation. Christ Himself commands good works. salvation is not simply believing in Christ only.



right, no one is disputing this.



right, no one is disputing this either.



right again, and no one is disputing this either.

simply saying that works are a part of salvation, does not mean we can earn our way into heaven. you are defining the role of works in a way that we don't believe.

May I ask you, and abacabb3?

What is your righteousness before God?

 

[ArmyMatt]

May I ask you, and abacabb3?

What is your righteousness before God?

what do you mean?

 

[stuart lawrence]

what do you mean?

What is your righteousness/ justification/ rightstanding before God?

 

[ArmyMatt]

What is your righteousness/ justification/ rightstanding before God?

of myself, I have none