Eastern Orthodox View of the Merits of Works

[ArmyMatt]

Well if you do have a clear view you are obviously very reticent to state what that view is.
That in itself does not reflect well on your church I'm afraid

again, since we can use the same words with different understanding, I am simply asking you what you exactly mean. I want to know how you read the Scripture so I can respond properly

 

[~Anastasia~]

Anastasia, do you know what your righteousness is before God?

I'm sorry, I am in an out of the convo, not quite enough time to devote until later today.

I am nearly positive you are looking for "Christ" as the answer.

We Orthodox would certainly agree with that, but I think Matt was right that there is a risk of talking past one another.

I hope I haven't messed up the conversation by replying. Will check in when I have more time to devote to thoughtful replies, and will see how it progresses by then.

I hope that helps.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Pure deflection

except you never answered. I can't deflect unless you answer and fire something back at me, which you have not done

 

[stuart lawrence]

I'm sorry, I am in an out of the convo, not quite enough time to devote until later today.

I am nearly positive you are looking for "Christ" as the answer.

We Orthodox would certainly agree with that, but I think Matt was right that there is a risk of talking past one another.

I hope I haven't messed up the conversation by replying. Will check in when I have more time to devote to thoughtful replies, and will see how it progresses by then.

I hope that helps.

Can you please, in a sentance simply state what you believe I your righteousness before God

 

[stuart lawrence]

except you never answered. I can't deflect unless you answer and fire something back at me, which you have not done

I'm sorry mat, but I have to say, I have never come across This before.
Christians being afraid to state what their righteousness is before God.
How could you ever witness to anyone if you either dont know the answer to that question, or feel unable to state the answer?

 

[abacabb3]

Can you give me a bible verse that uses the words.
Our righteousness is being indwelt by the Spirit.
You see, in my bible That is not the definition where righteousness Is repeatedly used.
Why are you not stating what the bible repeatedly and plainly states is the christians righteousness?

Sure. I think if you look Biblically, santification and justification are used synomonously, both in the past and present tense.

So, as proof that justification and sanctification are the same thing I'll quote two verses. You will ask for more, but I would ask that before you do that, please come up with explicit evidence that justification is different than sanctification. Because, if you cannot, then you fail by your own standard (i.e. my Bible does not explicitly say this or that.)

Proof 1: 1 Cor 6:11
Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified [hagios], but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Proof 2: Acts 26:18
I am sending you, to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified [hagios] by faith in Me

Proof 1 shows that the words are used interchangeably and all in the past tense. (FYI, "justified" is used in the continuous present tense in Rom 3:24, Rom 5:1, Rom 5:7, and Titus 3:7 in the Greek, you can read the KJV and it renders all four as "being justified.")

Proof 2 shows that Jesus is sending Paul to "open their eyes" which "by faith in me" results in "forgiveness of sins" and that those with faith would be "sanctified." The fact that the word "Sanctified" could easily be swapped out with "justified," and mean the exact same thing, shows that if we simply take the Bible at its word and not impose any theology on it that the concepts of sanctification and justification are identical.

SO, THAT BEING SAID, my proof for "our righteousness is being indwelt by the Spirit" is as follows:

Do you not know that you are a [f]temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If any man destroys the [g]temple of God, God will destroy him, for the [h]temple of God is holy [hagiazo], and that is what you are (1 Cor 3:16-17).

So, in plain English, the dwelling of the Spirit is what makes us holy. If being holy is the same as being just, then we made righteous by the indwelling of the Spirit. This indwelling occurs when we have faith in Christ--we are completely credited the righteousness of God, because we are indwelt with the righteousness of God. It is not a legal fiction as 1 Cor 3:16-17 makes clear. If we persevere in the faith, we maintain this same righteousness by the grace of God.

I hope this addresses your question

 

[stuart lawrence]

Sure. I think if you look Biblically, santification and justification are used synomonously, both in the past and present tense.

So, as proof that justification and sanctification are the same thing I'll quote two verses. You will ask for more, but I would ask that before you do that, please come up with explicit evidence that justification is different than sanctification. Because, if you cannot, then you fail by your own standard (i.e. my Bible does not explicitly say this or that.)

Proof 1: 1 Cor 6:11
Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified [hagios], but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Proof 2: Acts 26:18
I am sending you, to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified [hagios] by faith in Me

Proof 1 shows that the words are used interchangeably and all in the past tense. (FYI, "justified" is used in the continuous present tense in Rom 3:24, Rom 5:1, Rom 5:7, and Titus 3:7 in the Greek, you can read the KJV and it renders all four as "being justified.")

Proof 2 shows that Jesus is sending Paul to "open their eyes" which "by faith in me" results in "forgiveness of sins" and that those with faith would be "sanctified." The fact that the word "Sanctified" could easily be swapped out with "justified," and mean the exact same thing, shows that if we simply take the Bible at its word and not impose any theology on it that the concepts of sanctification and justification are identical.

SO, THAT BEING SAID, my proof for "our righteousness is being indwelt by the Spirit" is as follows:

Do you not know that you are a [f]temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If any man destroys the [g]temple of God, God will destroy him, for the [h]temple of God is holy [hagiazo], and that is what you are (1 Cor 3:16-17).

So, in plain English, the dwelling of the Spirit is what makes us holy. If being holy is the same as being just, then we made righteous by the indwelling of the Spirit. This indwelling occurs when we have faith in Christ--we are completely credited the righteousness of God, because we are indwelt with the righteousness of God. It is not a legal fiction as 1 Cor 3:16-17 makes clear. If we persevere in the faith, we maintain this same righteousness by the grace of God.

I hope this addresses your question

I'm sorry but this is terrible. I'm not going to allow you to get me to help you get out of answering a very simple question.

But i have learnt something today.
EO church members are not prepared to state what their righteousness I before God.

Under such circumstances, I am exceedingly grateful i was not raised I the EO church

 

[abacabb3]

Can you please, in a sentance simply state what you believe I your righteousness before God

Anastasia, would "we are credited the righteousness Christ because we are in Christ" make sense to the Orthodox? This is the only one sentence answer I think makes sense.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'm sorry mat, but I have to say, I have never come across This before.
Christians being afraid to state what their righteousness is before God.
How could you ever witness to anyone if you either dont know the answer to that question, or feel unable to state the answer?

it is because I like to know the POV of the person I am talking to first. Orthodoxy will often use similar terms or words but with a very different understanding. we have had many discussions on here with non-Orthodox where we were in agreement, but thinking we were at odds. so again, please just tell me what you mean.

 

[abacabb3]

I'm sorry but this is terrible. I'm not going to allow you to get me to help you get out of answering a very simple question.

I am very sad that you feel this way, but I am not one to judge. I've done the same thing that you are doing now, with the gotcha questions and all. I just hope that your love for God will lead you to seriously look at what the Bible actually says about justification, sanctification, and salvation--and not what you have been told it was said.

When you do that, you will find out that Christians for 1500 years before the Reformation gave the same answers, the ones I was giving you. And, suddenly it will make sense to you why they gave the same answers...because this is what the Scripture bears out.

 

[stuart lawrence]

it is because I like to know the POV of the person I am talking to first. Orthodoxy will often use similar terms or words but with a very different understanding. we have had many discussions on here with non-Orthodox where we were in agreement, but thinking we were at odds. so again, please just tell me what you mean.

I'm sorry, Thi is just more pure deflection. I will happily tell you what I believe if you stop dodging the question and answer it

I dont have any problem whatsoever in stating what my righteousness is before God, neither should you.
There I only one answer according to Paul, it is so plainly written.

So their is no ambiguity here is there

 

[abacabb3]

it is because I like to know the POV of the person I am talking to first. Orthodoxy will often use similar terms or words but with a very different understanding. we have had many discussions on here with non-Orthodox where we were in agreement, but thinking we were at odds. so again, please just tell me what you mean.

Matt, you might find this funny. I am meeting with a priest tomorrow (God willing) after the Liturgy. I was "warned" by Father John Peck (who runs an apologetics website) that the priest I will meet with will likely appear evasive, because they are afraid of misunderstanding your question and they want to see where you are going with it first.

It sounds like you meet the MO. When do you finish seminary?

 

[stuart lawrence]

I am very sad that you feel this way, but I am not one to judge. I've done the same thing that you are doing now, with the gotcha questions and all. I just hope that your love for God will lead you to seriously look at what the Bible actually says about justification, sanctification, and salvation--and not what you have been told it was said.

When you do that, you will find out that Christians for 1500 years before the Reformation gave the same answers, the ones I was giving you. And, suddenly it will make sense to you why they gave the same answers...because this is what the Scripture bears out.

Oh scripture is very clear and plain as to what a persons righteousness is and is not.
And any church denomination that cannot answer That question according to its biblical definition, in my view is a denomination one must steer well clear of

 

[abacabb3]

Stuart, you are itching to answer the question yourself, can you give us Paul's answer and his interpretation?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'm sorry, Thi is just more pure deflection. I will happily tell you what I believe if you stop dodging the question and answer it

I dont have any problem whatsoever in stating what my righteousness is before God, neither should you.
There I only one answer according to Paul, it is so plainly written.

So their is no ambiguity here is there

well, since the words you used "righteousness before God" are not found in St Paul, and is OT phrasing, I have to ask again what you mean

 

[stuart lawrence]

Stuart, you are itching to answer the question yourself, can you give us Paul's answer and his interpretation?

No, why should I help you deflect from the fact EO church members refuse to affirm they accept what their righteousness is according to the bible.

In truth, your denomination is not being reflected well here at all, as any non EO people reading Thi thread should immediately acknowledge

 

[stuart lawrence]

well, since the words you used "righteousness before God" are not found in St Paul, and is OT phrasing, I have to ask again what you mean

Oh dear, this is new to me, seeing the desperate measures people will go to, to avoid answering a question central to the core of the christian faith

 

[stuart lawrence]

If you don't know what your righteousness is before God, you cannot know if you are part of the family of God can you.

I really did not know, denominations existed That appear to flounder so badly concerning the basics of the christian faith

 

[ArmyMatt]

I just want to know what you mean. I know what my Church says on this, and we have been writing for 2000 years. you are assuming I don't because I want you to answer my simple question first so I know how to talk to you. I am not trying to be evasive.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Oh dear, this is new to me, seeing the desperate measures people will go to, to avoid answering a question central to the core of the christian faith

if actually checking Scripture and seeing your question that you claimed is clearly in Paul, only to check and see that what you are referencing is not in Paul is desperate, then I will be desperate.

what you are claiming as being so clear is not where you are saying it should be.