Eastern Orthodox View of the Merits of Works

[stuart lawrence]

Faith is the gift of God. (That is mentioned too in the book excerpt you object to.) All men are given a measure of it. We do not believe, as Calvin taught, that only some people have the possibility of salvation.

But if we purposely set our wills to follow the desires of our flesh, and in no way incline our hearts to cooperate with God, that faith we all are initially gifted with will not save us. It cannot grow. It will be dead faith.

Even the demons believe, and tremble. But they do not have the kind of faith that saves.

Salvation is a cooperation between God and man. God does His part. He gave us all the initial deposit allowing us to be saved. Christ became Incarnate, was crucified and resurrected, for us and for our salvation. And God not only draws us, but will respond to any movement on our part.

But we have a responsibility too. We cannot just claim that faith God initially instilled, that work Christ has done, and then decide that is enough and we will fill our bellies, party all night, own whatever delights our eyes, and fulfill all lusts of the flesh - and then think we have "saving faith". If we expect that, we deceive ourselves.

Yes, it takes time. And God understands that, and knows the heart of each man. That is why He, and He alone, may judge us. But what I said just before is also still true.

Maybe the context is the problem. I believe you are a sincere person, you know the Scriptures, and are zealous for the truth. But you seem to take an understanding from what is being said that is not the true meaning. I can applaud your thoroughness and concerns, but you really do take me by surprise what you get out of the few things being said here. So maybe Faith is the gift of God. (That is mentioned too in the book excerpt you object to.) All men are given a measure of it. We do not believe, as Calvin taught, that only some people have the possibility of salvation.

But if we purposely set our wills to follow the desires of our flesh, and in no way incline our hearts to cooperate with God, that faith we all are initially gifted with will not save us. It cannot grow. It will be dead faith.

Even the demons believe, and tremble. But they do not have the kind of faith that saves.

Salvation is a cooperation between God and man. God does His part. He gave us all the initial deposit allowing us to be saved. Christ became Incarnate, was crucified and resurrected, for us and for our salvation. And God not only draws us, but will respond to any movement on our part.

But we have a responsibility too. We cannot just claim that faith God initially instilled, that work Christ has done, and then decide that is enough and we will fill our bellies, party all night, own whatever delights our eyes, and fulfill all lusts of the flesh - and then think we have "saving faith". If we expect that, we deceive ourselves.

Yes, it takes time. And God understands that, and knows the heart of each man. That is why He, and He alone, may judge us. But what I said just before is also still true.

Maybe the context is the problem. I believe you are a sincere person, you know the Scriptures, and are zealous for the truth. But you seem to take an understanding from what is being said that is not the true meaning. I can applaud your thoroughness and concerns, but you really do take me by surprise what you get out of the few things being said here. So maybe it's context.

Well, I'm not going to call it an exegesis. And I'd go further than just those two verses. It's a bit chopped up otherwise.

15 As for us, being Jews by nature and not Gentile sinners,
16 yet knowing that no one is justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ*, we believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no one will be justified by the works of the law.
17 But if, even though we desired to be justified in Christ, we were found to be sinners, does that mean that Christ is a servant of sin? Certainly not!
18 Indeed, if I build up again those things which I [once] destroyed, I show that I am breaking the law.
19 For I, through the law, died to the law, so that I might live to God.
20 I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. I now live this life in the flesh, but I live [it] by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and who gave himself up for me.
21 I do not nullify the grace of God! For if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nothing!”



I'm not sure what the confusion is. The Law doesn't justify us. We are justified through faith in Christ. We all do still sin (please note the definition of sin/hamartia I gave several posts up) - that doesn't associate Christ with sin because we are imperfect though. We are not to try to build up the law as a way to justify ourselves (we know this) and we would fail just in trying. But we are united to Christ, He lives in us, so we become more like Him (and I'm giving you a bit of commentary here to make it clearer). Through faith, we are being conformed to Him. Because of that, our actions (words, thoughts, attitudes) become more righteous. But it is not because we strive to follow some outward law, but because Christ lives in us, and we are becoming conformed to Him. If we were struggling to keep an outward law, that would be a rejection of the grace of God, and there would have been no need for Christ's sacrifice.

Does that make sense?

Paul is speaking of a new convert, seeking to be justified, in respect of crossing over from being a slave of sin, to a slave of righteousness leading to holiness. Certain sins, that by their very nature would stop this happening need to be dealt with, but it takes time.
Paul stressed in the previous verses you mentioned, this justification is by faith in Christ, not observing the law. Therefore, the new convert seeks to cross over from one state to the other by trusting Christ to get him to where he needs to be/ a justification of faith I Christ, not observing the law( striving themself to defeat the sin)
Paul states while this process takes place we are found to be evident sinners. Why does he then ask the question:
Does Christ promote sin?

Imagine a new convert turning up at church one night with evident sin in their life, they heartily join in the service praising and worshipping God. What will someone who doesn't understand the true message think.
They will no doubt ask the question. Does Christ promote sin?
For here before them stands someone with blatant sin in their life heartily joining in the praise and worship.
However, they hate the sin that still binds them, they are desperate to be free of it for they have been born again, but they are still entitled to rejoice in what Christ has done for them, despite their still glaring imperfections, otherwise they must go around in sackcloth and ashes until they are as pure as the driven snow.
Immediately after Paul asks the question he answers it.
Absolutely not, if I rebuild what i destroyed I prove i am a lawbreaker.
What has Paul relentlessly sought to destroy? A righteousness/ justification of observing the law.
Therefore, if he turned back to striving to observe the law( defeat the sin) in order to be justified/ cross over from one state to the other, he would fail, and simply prove he was a lawbreaker

 

[stuart lawrence]

Faith is the gift of God. (That is mentioned too in the book excerpt you object to.) All men are given a measure of it. We do not believe, as Calvin taught, that only some people have the possibility of salvation.

But if we purposely set our wills to follow the desires of our flesh, and in no way incline our hearts to cooperate with God, that faith we all are initially gifted with will not save us. It cannot grow. It will be dead faith.

Even the demons believe, and tremble. But they do not have the kind of faith that saves.

Salvation is a cooperation between God and man. God does His part. He gave us all the initial deposit allowing us to be saved. Christ became Incarnate, was crucified and resurrected, for us and for our salvation. And God not only draws us, but will respond to any movement on our part.

But we have a responsibility too. We cannot just claim that faith God initially instilled, that work Christ has done, and then decide that is enough and we will fill our bellies, party all night, own whatever delights our eyes, and fulfill all lusts of the flesh - and then think we have "saving faith". If we expect that, we deceive ourselves.

Yes, it takes time. And God understands that, and knows the heart of each man. That is why He, and He alone, may judge us. But what I said just before is also still true.

Maybe the context is the problem. I believe you are a sincere person, you know the Scriptures, and are zealous for the truth. But you seem to take an understanding from what is being said that is not the true meaning. I can applaud your thoroughness and concerns, but you really do take me by surprise what you get out of the few things being said here. So maybe it's context.

I wonder if someone from a different denomination wrote the book I criticised whether you would have responded as you have?

 

[~Anastasia~]

I understand your concerns. But this is another thing we address on a deep level.

We have a simple saying for it "Keep your eyes on your own plate". We observe fasts throughout the year, and on a weekly basis. New converts are generally eased into this. There are dispensations for those who are sick, weak, young, or have particular dietary needs, etc. Sometimes there are even very particular circumstances to the person being observed, or not observed. And of course, there may be variations due to jurisdiction or local tradition. Monks generally fast on a whole different level. All of this is done under the guidance of a spiritual father or mother. And of course, sometimes people fail. But in all of this, we are reminded to concern ourselves with ourselves, and no one else. What they eat, don't eat, do, or don't do, is under the concern of their spiritual father, themselves, and God, and not open for commentary by the rest of us.

A brand new inquirer won't know this if he shows up, but that's not who you are worried about being scandalized. And he isn't that likely to be (though I admit, I sometimes see shorter skirts in Church than I'd like). But the inquirer isn't likely to be traumatized.

And by the time he is a convert, he will have been taught all these things, so he isn't in that danger himself, or if he still has particular issues he is working out, someone who is more experienced and trustworthy can help him with them.

We don't just leave people to have those kinds of problems.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I wonder if someone from a different denomination wrote the book I criticised whether you would have responded as you have?

I'm not sure why you think that.

What we believe is what we believe.

If someone from various denominations comes to the same conclusion, that is a thing worthy of praise, not criticism.

But, I suppose if I didn't know the theology of the one who wrote it, I might not be able to tell you for sure what the intentions behind the excerpt were.

 

[stuart lawrence]

It is my opinion, that any minister of any church who fully, and forthrightly preached the message Paul wrote, would have a church packed out, with not enough seats for all those wanting to enter the building.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I wonder if someone from a different denomination wrote the book I criticised whether you would have responded as you have?

I'm not sure if you will appreciate what I'm about to tell you, but just to point out that someone unfamiliar with the theology can't make a valid judgement of the work in question, because they lack the context ..l

That book is the second book of a particular body of work on spiritual warfare. I'm already familiar with St. Ignatius Brianchaninov's work because I've read some of it, and some has been recommended to me. But I've been under the guidance of a very wise old man for almost two years now, and so far he has not given me permission to read the works on spiritual warfare. (I already had, with my priest's blessing, but my priest waited about a year to give me his blessing.)

A few paragraphs tossed up on the internet read by non-Orthodox is pretty much guaranteed to be misunderstood.

For what that's worth. We don't give this stuff to brand new converts.

 

[~Anastasia~]

It is my opinion, that any minister of any church who fully, and forthrightly preached the message Paul wrote, would have a church packed out, with not enough seats for all those wanting to enter the building.

We preach Paul, but above all we preach CHRIST.

And I'm not quite sure of your point. You know, lots of folks would rather enjoy their praise music and not be held TOO accountable in their lives, rather than be faced with fasting, and demands for real, honest looks in the mirror and submission to Christ. Though that WAS what Paul preached.

 

[~Anastasia~]

By the way, I have to thank you, Stuart.

I do know these things that I am saying, but that was the first time I'd looked at that passage in Galatians and tried to explain it that way to someone else. Doing so hammered that passage just a little more smoothly in my mind, so I owe you my thanks.

May God bless and reward you for that. And I thank you.

 

[stuart lawrence]

We preach Paul, but above all we preach CHRIST.

And I'm not quite sure of your point. You know, lots of folks would rather enjoy their praise music and not be held TOO accountable in their lives, rather than be faced with fasting, and demands for real, honest looks in the mirror and submission to Christ. Though that WAS what Paul preached.

Paul explained the message of the new covenant/ the outworking of it That Christ died to usher in. It all centred on Christ
He explained what the disciples could not bear the knowledge of when Christ was ( john ch16)with them

 

[stuart lawrence]

By the way, I have to thank you, Stuart.

I do know these things that I am saying, but that was the first time I'd looked at that passage in Galatians and tried to explain it that way to someone else. Doing so hammered that passage just a little more smoothly in my mind, so I owe you my thanks.

May God bless and reward you for that. And I thank you.

Its a great passage, one all new converts should be made aware of

 

[stuart lawrence]

By the way, I have to thank you, Stuart.

I do know these things that I am saying, but that was the first time I'd looked at that passage in Galatians and tried to explain it that way to someone else. Doing so hammered that passage just a little more smoothly in my mind, so I owe you my thanks.

May God bless and reward you for that. And I thank you.

A few years ago I was reading a newspaper. There were pictures of two churches in London, no more than a third full, in a very deprived area. Many people lived close to those churches in desperate need. The journalist remarked, that when John Wesley preached at one of the churches, it was packed out with people, morning and night.
Close to the two churches was a mosque. There wasn't room in the mosque for all the people who wanted to pray there, they spilled out onto the sidewalk and prayed on the pavement.

That had a profound effect on me

 

[truefiction1]

Your book errs badly!


But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us ALIVE with Christ, EVEN WHEN we were dead in transgressions, it is by grace you have been saved
Eph2:4&5

I doubt the author of your book sees grace quite the way Paul did

The author of the book sees grace exactly the same way as all of the saints do, including Paul.

 

[stuart lawrence]

The author of the book sees grace exactly the same way as all of the saints do, including Paul.

So the author believes we are made alive in Christ, even when we are dead in sin?

From what I read, he certainly didn't appear to be saying that!

 

[truefiction1]

So the author believes we are made alive in Christ, even when we are dead in sin?

From what I read, he certainly didn't appear to be saying that!

The author believes that we are made alive in Christ, even when we are dead in sin, IF we repent. This is the same thing that Paul believes and teaches, because Paul preached "repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ". (Acts 20:21) All Communion with God begins and lives with repentance.

 

[stuart lawrence]

We preach Paul, but above all we preach CHRIST.

And I'm not quite sure of your point. You know, lots of folks would rather enjoy their praise music and not be held TOO accountable in their lives, rather than be faced with fasting, and demands for real, honest looks in the mirror and submission to Christ. Though that WAS what Paul preached.

Is the real problem people not wanting to be accountable, or is it something else?

Many people live desperate lives, they have come to the end of themselves, they live in despair and would do anything to see change in their lives.
Well almost anything. They would never dream of funding the answer to their hopeless situation by going to church. Why not?

 

[stuart lawrence]

The author believes that we are made alive in Christ, even when we are dead in sin, IF we repent.

Really?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Is the real problem people not wanting to be accountable, or is it something else?

Many people live desperate lives, they have come to the end of themselves, they live in despair and would do anything to see change in their lives.
Well almost anything. They would never dream of funding the answer to their hopeless situation by going to church. Why not?

I suppose it depends on what change you mean. You may be talking about very different groups of people. I can't answer in an abstract.

 

[stuart lawrence]

The author believes that we are made alive in Christ, even when we are dead in sin, IF we repent. This is the same thing that Paul believes and teaches, because Paul preached "repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ". (Acts 20:21) All Communion with God begins and lives with repentance.

We must leave behind our sinful life BEFORE we become capable of approaching the gospel.

How do you square That with being made alive with Christ even when we are dead in sin?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Really?

Can a person who enjoys committing adultery several times a week with multiple partners come to God, receive grace, and refuse to give up his practice of adultery, claiming that God will just have to accept him in his sin?

Would you teach that such a one can relax, be assured of salvation, with no need to even try to stop committing adultery?

I'm not talking about becoming sinless before conversion. But there will be some element of repentance in a person before he will accept God's grace. Otherwise, he doesn't even think he needs it.

 

[stuart lawrence]

The author believes that we are made alive in Christ, even when we are dead in sin, IF we repent. This is the same thing that Paul believes and teaches, because Paul preached "repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ". (Acts 20:21) All Communion with God begins and lives with repentance.

How can someone without strength devote all their willpower and strength to divine good?

When we were yet without strength, Christ died for the ungodly
Rom5:6