Easter Poll - date the Cross

[Dorothy Mae]

Daniel wrote the following vision:

Dan 9:24 “Seventy weeks have been determined
concerning your people and your holy city
to put an end to rebellion,
to bring sin to completion,
to atone for iniquity,
to bring in perpetual righteousness,
to seal up the prophetic vision,
and to anoint a Most Holy Place.
25 So know and understand:
From the issuing of the command to restore and rebuild
Jerusalem until an anointed one, a prince arrives,
there will be a period of seven weeks and sixty-two weeks.
It will again be built, with plaza and moat,
but in distressful times.
26 Now after the sixty-two weeks,
an anointed one will be cut off and have nothing.
As for the city and the sanctuary,
the people of the coming prince will destroy them.
But his end will come speedilylike a flood.
Until the end of the war that has been decreed
there will be destruction.
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one week.
But in the middle of that week
he will bring sacrifices and offerings to a halt.
On the wing of abominations will come one who destroys,
until the decreed end is poured out on the one who destroys.”

The clock started ticking in the 7th year of King Artaxerxes when he issued the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. That was 457 BC. Messiah the Prince started his mission 483 years later, just as the prophecy predicted.


Actually, Luke wrote that the Lord started his mission shortly after John the Baptist:

Luke 3:1 In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, and Herod was tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip was tetrarch of the region of Iturea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias was tetrarch of Abilene, 2 during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness.

Ok. So can you tell the man the exact date when Jesus was crucified? That’s the original question. It ought to be easy with all this info, right?

 

[Andrewn]

Ok. So can you tell the man the exact date when Jesus was crucified?

I already did, in post #9. And other posts are also helpful.

Unfortunately, members who join an ongoing thread frequently skip previous messages when they decide to write their own thoughts. Reading takes time and concentration. The 1st 10 posts in any thread may be the most important.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I already did, in post #9. And other posts are also helpful.

Unfortunately, members who join an ongoing thread frequently skip previous messages when they decide to write their own thoughts. Reading takes time and concentration. The 1st 10 posts in any thread may be the most important.

Doesn’t cost anything to repeat the information. How many characters does it take to say he was crucified on Xx day in year yyyy? Faster than telling me which post you already gave the answer in.

 

[Christian Gedge]

When Jesus was 33. When Pilot was governor. At the Passover.

Ok. So can you tell the man the exact date when Jesus was crucified? That’s the original question. It ought to be easy with all this info, right?

How many characters does it take to say he was crucified on Xx day in year yyyy?

7th April AD 30 (5th April, Gregorian calendar)​

As mentioned by AndrewN, and in the opening post, the date matters because it is the center point of prophecy! Entire prophetic systems stand or fall on this date. Im trying to stimulate interest in the subject because false end-time theories are usually built on incorrect chronology. If only people cared to study the chronology of the cross, they would be spared a lot of muddled prophetic thinking.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

7th April AD 30 (5th April, Gregorian calendar)​

As mentioned by AndrewN, and in the opening post, the date matters because it is the center point of prophecy! Entire prophetic systems stand or fall on this date. Im trying to stimulate interest in the subject because false end-time theories are usually built on incorrect chronology. If only people cared to study the chronology of the cross, they would be spared a lot of muddled prophetic thinking.

Well I’ve found the most satisfying view is to see the events Jesus predicted would happen before that generation that pierced him died actually happened within that time frame. So that part of the events, the terrifying ones, are now in the past. The second part has no signs nor time table at all.

 

[keras]

Well I’ve found the most satisfying view is to see the events Jesus predicted would happen before that generation that pierced him died actually happened within that time frame. So that part of the events, the terrifying ones, are now in the past. The second part has no signs nor time table at all.

But the events Jesus and the Prophets predicted HAVEN'T happened yet.
The Temple destruction and the dispersion of the Jews, yes, but the cosmic and earth shaking things; no.
How can you say the end times has no events? Revelation and every other scripture about the Return of Jesus, has much to happen before that great Day of the Lord Almighty. Revelation 16:14

I do not see any particular significance to the exact day of Jesus' death. It did denote the end of the 69th 'week of Daniel 9:26
The critical date is 29.5 AD, when Jesus commenced His ministry. The 15th year of Emperor Tiberius. Luke 3:1

 

[Dorothy Mae]

But the events Jesus and the Prophets predicted HAVEN'T happened yet.
The Temple destruction and the dispersion of the Jews, yes, but the cosmic and earth shaking things; no.
How can you say the end times has no events? Revelation and every other scripture about the Return of Jesus, has much to happen before that great Day of the Lord Almighty. Revelation 16:14

Those descriptions occur elsewhere in the Bible describing other catastrophic events that happened afterwards but before Jesus was born and are metaphoric. There’s too much to present the view here but i’ll give one example. The sun being darkened and moon turns red occur elsewhere and it describes the removal of local authorities who keep order. Happened before in the Bible to other nations. The coming in the clouds is not literalbut means coming in judgement. God judged Jerusalem. The blood of all the prophets was layed on that generation as Jesus said. What happened to Jerusalem was so much worse than any event before or since. Read about it. Jesus is coming again bodily but there is no rapture, just the resurrection.

I do not see any particular significance to the exact day of Jesus' death. It did denote the end of the 69th 'week of Daniel 9:26
The critical date is 29.5 AD, when Jesus commenced His ministry. The 15th year of Emperor Tiberius. Luke 3:1

Why is this critical?

 

[keras]

Those descriptions occur elsewhere in the Bible describing other catastrophic events that happened afterwards but before Jesus was born and are metaphoric. There’s too much to present the view here but i’ll give one example. The sun being darkened and moon turns red occur elsewhere and it describes the removal of local authorities who keep order. Happened before in the Bible to other nations. The coming in the clouds is not literalbut means coming in judgement. God judged Jerusalem. The blood of all the prophets was layed on that generation as Jesus said. What happened to Jerusalem was so much worse than any event before or since. Read about it. Jesus is coming again bodily but there is no rapture, just the resurrection.

Why is this critical?

I just don't buy the idea of plainly stated prophecy, that CAN be literally fulfilled, being just metaphoric, allegorical, or spiritual. That's just preterist nonsense.
The Day comes, burning like a furnace...… Malachi 4:1 and over 70 other Bible prophesies tell us of a day yet to come that will burn up the Lord's enemies and change the world.
Remember; God did wipe out the peoples who rejected Him before, by water. 2 Peter 3:1-7

The date when Jesus started His ministry is important because He said He would work for 2 'days' and then obtain His reward. Luke 13:32, Hosea 6:2
1 'day' = 1000 years to the Lord in heaven and His reward will be His reign as King over the world for 1000 years.

Please look at my post #26 for the details. ​

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I just don't buy the idea of plainly stated prophecy, that CAN be literally fulfilled, being just metaphoric, allegorical, or spiritual. That's just preterist nonsense.

Do you apply that Theory to the prophesies of Jesus as well? That is the prophesies that spoke of him? Do you insist that those that pointed to the Messiah, you don't believe were literally fulfilled? Just wondered if your Theory is applied to prophesy in all of the Bible or just reserved for Revelation.

The Day comes, burning like a furnace...… Malachi 4:1 and over 70 other Bible prophesies tell us of a day yet to come that will burn up the Lord's enemies and change the world.
Remember; God did wipe out the peoples who rejected Him before, by water. 2 Peter 3:1-7

First, you Need to read the story of the flood. Not a word is said about them rejecting Him and so He wiped them out. Pretty petty, actually. Second, you picked a poor passage to support your Theory because Jerusalem burned like a furnace. The Lord Jesus' enemies were actually destroyed. ANd the world has been changed ever since. You should have Chosen a different passage as that one is easily shown as having been fulfilled and being fulfilled.

The date when Jesus started His ministry is important because He said He would work for 2 'days' and then obtain His reward. Luke 13:32, Hosea 6:2
1 'day' = 1000 years to the Lord in heaven and His reward will be His reign as King over the world for 1000 years.

Please look at my post #26 for the details. ​

OK, I have met the number counters before. The first was when I was much younger and was told Jesus was coming in 1970something because Israel had been a Name for 40 years and that is one Generation. Did not happen as the number counters said. But I doubt you will be convinced so count your days and weeks if that makes you happy. Whatever you do, do not read about the fall of Jerusalem and what happened in those weeks and months surrounding it. Will Blow your Theory out of the water as well as it being the most horrible account of Events that happened to any people anywhere or time in human history.

 

[keras]

Do you apply that Theory to the prophesies of Jesus as well? That is the prophesies that spoke of him? Do you insist that those that pointed to the Messiah, you don't believe were literally fulfilled? Just wondered if your Theory is applied to prophesy in all of the Bible or just reserved for Revelation.

I apply it to all of the Prophetic Word.
The prophesies about Jesus first Advent were literally fulfilled, why not all the rest?

First, you Need to read the story of the flood. Not a word is said about them rejecting Him and so He wiped them out. Pretty petty, actually. Second, you picked a poor passage to support your Theory because Jerusalem burned like a furnace. The Lord Jesus' enemies were actually destroyed. ANd the world has been changed ever since. You should have Chosen a different passage as that one is easily shown as having been fulfilled and being fulfilled.

The antediluvian peoples were very similar to the worlds people today. Like them, we just get on with life, and like them we mostly fail to acknowledge our Creator.
To our Creator God, this situation is unacceptable. He fixed it before; He intends to do so again.

Malachi 4:1 does not pertain to Jerusalem. The context does not sustain that. It is plainly end time, unfulfilled prophecy.

OK, I have met the number counters before. The first was when I was much younger and was told Jesus was coming in 1970something because Israel had been a Name for 40 years and that is one Generation. Did not happen as the number counters said. But I doubt you will be convinced so count your days and weeks if that makes you happy. Whatever you do, do not read about the fall of Jerusalem and what happened in those weeks and months surrounding it. Will Blow your Theory out of the water as well as it being the most horrible account of Events that happened to any people anywhere or time in human history.

Obviously you are not interested in anything that might directly affect your current situation. It is unfortunate that we have had many false teachers, who have fooled many. Now; people have the 'cry wolf syndrome' and take no notice when the truth is presented.

I know very well the history of the Roman conquest of Judah, it was horrible but in no way did it fulfil what we are told will happen during the final few years of this era.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I apply it to all of the Prophetic Word.
The prophesies about Jesus first Advent were literally fulfilled, why not all the rest?

Sorry, my mistake. I misread your sentence. YOu have a difficultly in the the reference to the sun being darkened and the moon blood red occurs elsewhere in the Bible and was fulfilled then as well. It also speaks of God coming in the clouds what also occurred previously and means judgment. Sorry but these things were spoken of other groups of peoples at other times and was fulfilled before Jesus was born. That is not the first time those metaphors are used. The Bible is full of metaphors that are not literally fulfilled. God does not have feathers.

The antediluvian peoples were very similar to the worlds people today. Like them, we just get on with life, and like them we mostly fail to acknowledge our Creator.
To our Creator God, this situation is unacceptable. He fixed it before; He intends to do so again.

No, we are not like them. Read the account again. Their thoughts and deeds were evil all the time and nothing but evil. We are not at all like them. There are even people who help others and do not believe in a God. We are not at all like them.

Malachi 4:1 does not pertain to Jerusalem. The context does not sustain that. It is plainly end time, unfulfilled prophecy.

You are reading that with your prejudice. The end of the Mosaic was the end time Jesus and the Bible spoke of. That covenant has ended.

Obviously you are not interested in anything that might directly affect your current situation. It is unfortunate that we have had many false teachers, who have fooled many. Now; people have the 'cry wolf syndrome' and take no notice when the truth is presented.

Ah yes, the personal insult when you are losing. I have met this strategy before. It is done by those who cannot really defend their position and so attack the character. You do not even wait until a discussion has started.

I know very well the history of the Roman conquest of Judah, it was horrible but in no way did it fulfil what we are told will happen during the final few years of this era.

It fullfilled it in every way.

 

[keras]

What is needed here is someone with common sense and maths ability, to look carefully at my and CG's timelines and at least make sensible comments, if not a decision, of whose date is correct for the baptism of Jesus. 27AD or 29.5?

 

[Christian Gedge]

What is needed here is someone with common sense and maths ability, to look carefully at my and CG's timelines and at least make sensible comments, if not a decision, of whose date is correct for the baptism of Jesus. 27AD or 29.5?

That's a good idea. Lets start with John 2:20. "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?" This information enables a precision dating of the beginning of Christs ministry because Herod began construction of the temple in BC 20/19. Simply add forty-six and it equals AD 27.

Here is the math. Herod captured Jerusalem in July, 37 BC, so his first year was until Nisan 36 BC. (Josephus used the Hebrew Nisan New Year) Now please follow Herod’s years:

July 37 – Nisan 36 = 1st year
Nisan 36 – Nisan 35 = 2nd year
Nisan 35 – Nisan 34 = 3rd year
Nisan 34 – Nisan 33 = 4th year
Nisan 33 – Nisan 32 = 5th year
Nisan 32 – Nisan 31 = 6th year
Nisan 31 – Nisan 30 = 7th year
Nisan 30 – Nisan 29 = 8th year
Nisan 29 – Nisan 28 = 9th year
Nisan 28 – Nisan 27 = 10th year
Nisan 27 – Nisan 26 = 11th year
Nisan 26 – Nisan 25 = 12th year
Nisan 25 – Nisan 24 = 13th year
Nisan 24 – Nisan 23 = 14th year
Nisan 23 – Nisan 22 = 15th year
Nisan 22 – Nisan 21 = 16th year
Nisan 21 – Nisan 20 = 17th year
Nisan 20 – Nisan 19 = 18th year​

So, Josephus tells us that Herod began rebuilding the temple in the eighteenth year of his reign, and that was between Nisan (April) 20 BC and Nisan (April) 19 BC as shown above. The greater portion of that Hebrew year was in our calendar year, 20 BC.

OK, pull out your calculators and enter -20 + 46 + 1 then click equals. (The +1 is because there is no year zero between BC and AD) So, what do we get? Yep, 27 AD.

 

[keras]

OK, pull out your calculators and enter -20 + 46 + 1 then click equals. (Remember, the +1 is because there is no year zero between BC and AD) So, what do we get? Yep, 27 AD.

Nice try CG.
I make it 46 - 19 + 2 = 29AD
Herod started building the actual Temple, after much work on the foundations, late in his 18th year; 19 BC.
Plus 2 to count the 46 elapsed years over the BC/AD break.

I also stand by the Bible timing as given, and the exact 2000 periods, Adam to Abraham, - Abraham to Jesus and from Jesus to the end of this era; when He will Return.

 

[jgr]

Plus 2 to count the 46 elapsed years over the BC/AD break.

You err.

The elapsed duration in moving from 1BC to AD1 (-1 to +1 on the timeline below) is one year, not two. There is no year 0.

Starting at -20 (20BC) on the timeline below, count 46 elapsed years.

The 46th year ends in +27 i.e. AD27.

-20 -19 -18 -17 -16 -15 -14 -13 -12 -11 -10 -9 -8 -7 -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1
+1 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +8 +9 +10 +11 +12 +13 +14 +15 +16 +17
+18 +19 +20 +21 +22 +23 +24 +25 +26 +27

"Historians have never included a year zero."

You may disagree with Dionysius, but then you would disagree with every other historian.

 

[keras]

The 46th year ends in +27 i.e. AD27.

-20 -19 -18 -17 -16 -15 -14 -13 -12 -11 -10 -9 -8 -7 -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1
+1 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +8 +9 +10 +11 +12 +13 +14 +15 +16 +17
+18 +19 +20 +21 +22 +23 +24 +25 +26 +27

Still wrong! You actually list 47 years!
You miss the fact that the great mistake of Dionysius was in counting the years at their commencement. I use the example of the world celebrating 2000 years, when only 1999 years had elapsed.
1 AD and 1 BC were not years at all, they were just the starting point of the Gregorian Calendar. After a year had passed from that start point; it was called 2 AD. Get it?

Therefore; your table above only shows the elapsed years to the beginning of 20 BC and the beginning of 27 AD, we must change 20 BC to 19 BC and add 2 for the full 46 year total = 29 AD

I actually prove 29.5 AD as the correct date for the start of Jesus earthly Ministry, in the timeline I posted in #26. No one has yet even addressed that. I suppose because to do so means contradicting 47 Bible verses.

 

[jgr]

Still wrong! You actually list 47 years!
You miss the fact that the great mistake of Dionysius was in counting the years at their commencement. I use the example of the world celebrating 2000 years, when only 1999 years had elapsed.
1 AD and 1 BC were not years at all, they were just the starting point of the Gregorian Calendar. After a year had passed from that start point; it was called 2 AD. Get it?

Therefore; your table above only shows the elapsed years to the beginning of 20 BC and the beginning of 27 AD, we must change 20 BC to 19 BC and add 2 for the full 46 year total = 29 AD

I actually prove 29.5 AD as the correct date for the start of Jesus earthly Ministry, in the timeline I posted in #26. No one has yet even addressed that. I suppose because to do so means contradicting 47 Bible verses.

Do you understand what "elapsed duration" means?

Of course I listed 47 years. That's because the number of years of elapsed duration between any given date within the first year (20BC), and the same date within the last year (AD27), is 46.

Get it?

You're still essentially attempting to insert a year 0.

Do you think we should discard our calendar and adopt the Buddhist or Hindu calendar?

They have year 0.

1 AD and 1 BC were not years at all, they were just the starting point of the Gregorian Calendar. After a year had passed from that start point; it was called 2 AD.

They certainly were years.

On the BC side, what do you think the year following 2BC was called?

How about "1BC"?

On the AD side, what do you think that the year beginning at your "start point" and continuing until AD2 was called?

How about "AD1"?

 

[keras]

They certainly were years.

I do not consider myself any kind of mathematical expert.
But I can figure out simple facts.

The fact is; the Christian era and year that commenced on the 1st January, was designated as I AD by Dionysus, then the day after the 31st of December, 2 AD commenced.
At year 2, only one year had passed, therefore in order to find out when a given period of years, such as 46 fits over the BC/AD break, we must add two.

If you want to dispute this, then get a maths expert to do it, and cease your silly comments like whether I understand big words or a calendar change.
And; when you are found to be wrong, have the moral fortitude to admit it.

 

[Christian Gedge]

I make it - 19 + 46 + 2 = 29AD
Herod started building the actual Temple, after much work on the foundations, late in his 18th year; 19 AD.
Plus 2 to count the 46 elapsed years over the BC/AD break.

Have you ever built a house? You start with the foundations - not after the foundations! sheesh!

And what’s this “plus 2” nonsense when counting from BC to AD? Every historian counts 1 year. JGR gave you the link and you totally ignored it.

So, - 20 + 46 + 1 = 27AD

 

[jgr]

I do not consider myself any kind of mathematical expert.
But I can figure out simple facts.

The fact is; the Christian era and year that commenced on the 1st January, was designated as I AD by Dionysus, then the day after the 31st of December, 2 AD commenced.
At year 2, only one year had passed, therefore in order to find out when a given period of years, such as 46 fits over the BC/AD break, we must add two.

If you want to dispute this, then get a maths expert to do it, and cease your silly comments like whether I understand big words or a calendar change.
And; when you are found to be wrong, have the moral fortitude to admit it.

If you cannot understand the simple expression "elapsed duration", then this discussion isn't for you.

Feel free to trot out any math "expert" who disputes the testimony of every historian.

Just ensure that he/she isn't Hindu or Buddhist.