Earth, heaven, and pointlessness

[Nihilist Virus]

Jesus died to save us from death that we deserved.

No. Please don't quote me out of context and respond to your own creation.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

There are no transitional states of being within heaven, you just are, that is, it is a nexus where time is not part of the equation of existence.

The bible does not say this.

Eternity is a timeless nexus, where time has no meaning. If time is none existent, then there are no transitional states that would suggest a time derived formula for existence.

Eternity is endless time. You cannot possibly be more wrong.

If there is no transitional time states in heaven,

The "then" won't matter because the "if" condition is not met.

then how you entered into heaven, as an innocent and pure child of God/Light, then that is how you will remain within heaven, within the blissful eternity of LOVE.

Taking your "then" as a pure assertion, detached from your "if", I'm still left asking the same question once again: why didn't God just make us this way to begin with?

You have unwittingly rebutted your own rebuttal and I am rather amused by it

First off, there was nothing unwitting about this. I did not casually contradict myself in the course of my argument; I offered this as a possible counter argument to my own argument.

Secondly, this counter argument does not defeat my argument.

You seem to be quite lost in what is being said. Maybe take a second look before laughing in my face.

Neither the serpent nor the earthly conditions would be there, because as according to my reply to your first quote, timeless eternity isn't transient of states and so you have a totally different existence that isn't played out in time.

And as I said, you couldn't have possibly been more wrong.

Jesus said you will not be given into marriage in heaven, for you will be like the angels in heaven.

Irrelevant.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

yes, the sacrifice, for undeserving sinners to be made right with God and receive eternal life, was indeed for God's glory in displaying His love for the world as romans 9 states.



you actually made a handful of conclusions about God's character and motives in your OP.

No, I'm asking why he didn't just jump to the desired end state instead of creating a world of suffering. I'm asking a question and stating commonly agreed upon facts. That is not a conclusion and cannot be one as conclusions are statements derived from given facts.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Life, being here on earth is a privilege.
One who doesn't ...well you don't want the answer to that.

Christ said ...

“Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.”
Matthew 24:35
Mark 13:31
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:33‬

You have a choice. Believe in any doctrine.
The ones responsible for leading you into believing their doctrine will be here and then won't.

The words spoken by Christ whose earthly name is Jesus, will remain. The truth, He spoke i.e words given to Him by The Father to give to us will out live, you, your children, your children's children and any other doctrine that doesn't direct you to the Gospels.

Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.”
Matthew 24:35
Mark 13:31
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:33‬


Your Alli

Thank you for this, but do you have an answer to the OP?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Very interesting philosophical question.

However, there is no God, right? So, it matters not.

Questions such as this are not going to convince you of the existence of God. They are more a question as to why you should accept the rules of God.

The discussion about such things is only justifiable if you believed there was a God.

If you did believe that there was a God and He was he all powerful and infinitely more intelligent than you, then you would accept that there are things that will only be answered when we meet Him face to face.

But, as you have designated yourself as an Atheist, the answers to your inquiry are wasted.

So your answer is that you don't know the purpose of our existence? Thanks.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Heaven will have the only things that can ultimate satisfy the human soul forever... discovering and knowing an invite God more and more... we were made for that.. anything else will be pretty boring after a million years but God is endless and there will always be new mountains of discovery in Him and deeper oceans of blessing in Him

Thanks but do you have any comment on the OP?

 

[SkyWriting]

Judeo-Christianity attempts to explain not only how we are here, but also why (the purpose of existence). Yet if we examine the Christian worldview, it's clear that our existence on earth is pointless.When you are in heaven (or on the new earth... Christian lingo is inconsistent here), will you have free will? As far as I understand it, even Calvanists believe in free will, that is, they believe that one can make a choice free of coercion. My understanding is that you will have free will in heaven but no desire to sin. Why didn't God create us like that to begin with?* If Christians prefer to be in heaven, and if God would've preferred to not die on the cross, then what is the actual point of the universe's existence? In trying to explain it, Christianity renders it moot.If you have to resort to confusion to explain our purpose on earth, please don't even bother posting. If you post here to admit that you don't know our purpose or what it could possibly be, I'll admire your honesty (ask yourself the follow-up question: why believe in something by faith which cannot explain anything even if it is granted to be true?). If you say we exist for God's glory, his good pleasure, or for some other idea that does something for God and nothing for you, then face the fact that Jesus died for his own purposes and that it wasn't for you (this idea is presumably heretical as it contradicts John 3:16, the most famous passage in the entire Bible). If God loves us, why not do what's best for us instead of putting us on this earth?*Please don't tell me that he already did so with Adam and Eve; if Adam and Eve were created IN THE SAME STATE that you will be in, then there will be a fall in heaven.Possible counter argument:Adam and Eve were deceived by the serpent, and there will be no serpent in heaven.But then God has not already created the conditions of heaven, so the argument fails.

God created us with the opportunity to have free will.
God prefers the love of those who choose to love Him
through free will rather than slavery. This option brings
death to man, so God devised a solution to free will.

Exodus 33:20 But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"

Part of God had to die so that man may live.
Jesus died to save us from death that we deserved.

Jer: 29 "Why do you contend with Me? You have all transgressed against Me," declares the LORD.

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

 

[SkyWriting]

No, I'm asking why he didn't just jump to the desired end state instead of creating a world of suffering. I'm asking a question and stating commonly agreed upon facts. That is not a conclusion and cannot be one as conclusions are statements derived from given facts.

Suffering is due to pain. Pain is what keep your heart beating and urges you to take a breath.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Hello.. I will attempt to answer your question.. But realize that no Christian will be able to answer all questions about God.. This is why Faith.. meaning trust in God is an essential part of a Christians make up.. We cannot know God fully nor can we fully understand His ways so we need to have trust in God in those areas where we have no understanding.. But apart from that i will give you the thoughts i have on the topic of your question..

In existence there is not then Just God and We human beings.. Their is a third group of beings which we call Angels of whom one who used to be called Lucifer now commonly known as satan desired to be equal with God and laid claim to it... God needed to demonstrate why the satanic claim was false and why God could only ever be the one and only God of all existence.. satan however had the desire to demonstrate that God was faulty and thus Gods claim to being justly the one and only God was false. This in turn would take away Gods authority in the eyes of the angels and justify satans claim to Godhood..

So now we come to Gods universe creation.. Gods creation of Human beings who where made in a good state... (note according to the Bible they only changed into a sabotaged state of being when satan in the form of a snake deceived them into accepting the Knowledge of good and evil).. What would you think if i said that i believe that God created the universe and humanity as a stage to put to the test and resolve the great controversy of satans claim to Godhood and Gods claim to exclusivity to that position/ state? And that we humans where essentially created to play our part in the resolution to this controversy by God demonstrating through us why satan was not worthy of being God and why God was the only One worthy of being God...

Now God could have ""zapped"" lucifer the moment he decided to rebel against the Authority of God. But that would not have demonstrated that satans claim to Godhood was false.. It would have only revealed that God had the power to destroy satan.. The heavenly Host,, The Angelic population would then would only submit to Gods authority out of fear of His power rather then willingly submit to His Authority out of genuine belief that God was justifiably the one and only God of all existence.. God would have become nothing more then a brutal dictator in the eyes of the angels if he had just zapped satan.. God does not wish for angels or people to submit to Him out of fear or just because God is powerful.. He wants people to willingly accept His authrotiy because they are confident that God is justified in being the one and only God of all existence..

So satan sabotaged Gods creation in an attempt to show fault in God.. And God Redeems His creation to show that He is trully an awesome God and that satans act shows that satan is unjustified in being a God.. satan must have thought He had God beaten.. Because if God had destroyed his sabotaged creation satan would have been able to stand before the Heavenly host and declared that God created a creation and ended up having to destroy it thus God could be declared a failure.. If God had chosen not to destroy the universe to allow sin to exist in His creation forever then satan culd turn around and declare to the angels that God has allow imperfection / evil to exist in his creation and therefore he could claim God was unjustified to be God for allowing such evil to continue into eternity.. But God of course used satans sabotage to demonstrate His ability to reconcile and redeem His creation..

Thank you. You are the first person to actually answer my question... although I do also appreciate the honesty of those who say they don't know.

However, I have two follow-up questions:

1a. What, then, was the purpose of creating Satan? Are you saying that the other angels would have a lesser experience or appreciation of God if not for Satan's rebellion?

1b. Does this mean that Satan's actions were orchestrated or perhaps preferred by God?

2. Your explanation does not account for all of the senseless suffering in the world. What role does misery serve?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Adam and Eve were not created in the same state as we will be in simply becuase they had human flesh which we will no longer have or be tempted by in heaven so yeah you're right on that.

Also to answer your question sure God could have eliminated us and started all over...but he saw that some would choose him and end up in heaven... so why restart if you'll have people follow you. SUre some will make the choice to go to hell, but some will make the choice to go to heaven.

I'm not asking why he didn't just obliterate us. I'm asking why the earth phase couldn't have just been skipped entirely since that would seemingly be in everyone's best interests (including God).

Also I wouldn't say God preferred not to die on the cross. I would argue he wanted to tbh considering the destination of mankind. I mean he is love right? so he had a desire to save us.

Matthew 26:39.

 

[SkyWriting]

No. Please don't quote me out of context and respond to your own creation.

I can accommodate your request this time.

 

[SkyWriting]

I'm not asking why he didn't just obliterate us. I'm asking why the earth phase couldn't have just been skipped entirely since that would seemingly be in everyone's best interests (including God).

You must be able to see better than God can both the past and the future.
I think not likely.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Nihil Virus: Judeo-Christianity attempts to explain not only how we are here, but also why (the purpose of existence). Yet if we examine the Christian worldview, it's clear that our existence on earth is pointless.

Your questions betray 4 theological misunderstandings.
(1) You misunderstand the story of Adam and Eve as primarily the story of the Fall, when in fact it is a symbolic story of the birth of conscience. The key verse is Genesis 3:22: "The Lord God said: See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good from evil."
The disobedience of Adam and Eve produced 2 positive outcomes:
(a) It made humans godlike and thus made real the creation of humanity in God's image (1:26-27).
(b) For the first time it made them moral beings, able now to discern the difference between good and evil.

A possibly feasible explanation, or a start, but this seems to be wildly heretical to me. At the very least it is quite unflattering to God. If disobedience to God improved their situation, then God was wrong.

(2) You talk as if this life is our only career and the afterlife is like a glorified static nursing home in the sky, devoid of challenge and risk. What you overlook is the biblical implication that this life is rather our school--a place of soul-making--and the afterlife is our true career. Jesus uses images like jurisdiction over cities on the basis of proven skills in this life and Paul speaks of jurisdiction over angels and even the cosmos.

A fair point. I'd ask why suffering is necessary, but you get to that below.

(3) You forget that we arrive in heaven with basically the same level of moral and spiritual development that we cultivated during our lifetime, and that means with the same flaws that need work.
Thus, Paradise, our preferred point of postmortem arrival, is located in the 3rd heaven and many dead Christians are not ready for the 3rd heaven and must reside, at least for a while, in the first or 2nd heaven. In other words, there are multiple heavens for various levels of development.

This point is not relevant. There is still no reason we couldn't have been initially made in heaven.

(4) Virus: "My understanding is that you will have free will in heaven but no desire to sin. Why didn't God create us like that to begin with?"

You seem to have a simplistic view of the necessary conditions for free will. (a) The value of our freedom to choose the good is a function of our capacity to overcome contrary inclinations. No contrary inclinations? Then our volition is either coerced or random and the very concept of spiritual growth becomes meaningless.

So... you will sin in heaven? Could you explain?

(b) You ignore the need for pain-dependent virtues to develop a high-quality moral character in God's eyes. Thus, there is no courage without danger, no compassion without suffering, and no generosity without want. Or are you seriously suggesting that the ideal character would lack courage, compassion, and generosity? Pain-dependent virtues presume the need for struggle and uncertainty to achieve moral greatness.

Are you saying there will be suffering in heaven?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Most people be they Christian, an Atheist or other have a healthy fear of death. What is generally agreed upon is the overall point to life is to live it. How to do that is where people differ and form their own particular world view group.

It is not precise to describe Judeo-Christianity as an attempt to explain why we are here. It flat out makes numerous claims to be the deciding road map to life and death, one of which is found in Acts 4:12. Other world views make their own brand of claims about life and death.

To draw a conclusion that the Christian worldview makes it clear that their existence on earth is pointless, does not come from the statements made by the biblical writers. It comes from your alternate worldview about what you think about life and how it should be lived. Basically you're finding that Christianity for some people including yourself is pointless.

Allow me to rephrase the question:

If our existence on earth is not pointless, were the angels cheated?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Sorry, just a question - if you read the whole Bible, what do you think about Ecclesiastes?

Vanity of vanities, all is vanity.

 

[Norbert L]

Allow me to rephrase the question:

If our existence on earth is not pointless, were the angels cheated?

You need to connect that question with exploring Christian views on angels and how that relates to our existence on earth. Like you did in your initial OP when you began with:

Judeo-Christianity attempts to explain not only how we are here, but also why (the purpose of existence). Yet if we examine the Christian worldview, it's clear that our existence on earth is pointless.

Likewise you need to provide more than just a question. Provide an examination of Christianity with its' views on angels and how that points to our existence on earth.

 

[The Times]

@Nihilist Virus

You cannot report to be who you are unless you explain why you think you know the answer that others don't.

Originally I gave you the benefit of a doubt to answer your questions and now you are required in kind to give a reasoned answer to the following blanket statements that you have made in trying to dismiss what I have said thus far.....

There are no transitional states of being within heaven, you just are, that is, it is a nexus where time is not part of the equation of existence.

You need to reason as to why you believe what you believe and cite evidence in the Bible to the contrary. I have biblical evidence, but you must either find it yourself or find evidence to the contrary. I am not going to spoon feed you.

Eternity is endless time. You cannot possibly be more wrong.

Says who? You!
Please answer with evidence and not opinion. Let me help you, go to the Bible and prove that it is not.

The "then" won't matter because the "if" condition is not met.

You need to give evidence to the above before you can make this claim. Just as a reminder you and I are not the authorities in this matter and neither are we infallible. So better try next time.

Taking your "then" as a pure assertion, detached from your "if", I'm still left asking the same question once again: why didn't God just make us this way to begin with?

Let me go back to basics in reasoning, in order to explain to you that God cannot have made you into a robot, when giving you free will, which was the inspiration behind the love of God. That being said, an individual had to have had a start in order to reach a level of sanctification, meaning completion, so that he/she can enter into the unchangible, eternal, timeless and none transient state in heaven, the nexus of God.

First off, there was nothing unwitting about this. I did not casually contradict myself in the course of my argument; I offered this as a possible counter argument to my own argument.

Secondly, this counter argument does not defeat my argument.

You seem to be quite lost in what is being said. Maybe take a second look before laughing in my face.

Why I said that you rebutted your own rebuttel is because all your premises were ill informed at best or in error at worst. You can't contrive unproven premises to lead you to where you want to arrive at, why you are guilty of your own words that you replied to me as follows.....

The "then" won't matter because the "if" condition is not met.

Don't you see that you unwittingly led yourself into a hole that you are trying to reel out from by dismissing my premises without giving reason nor evidence. At least try to challenge them. You did also take a long time to reply to me, which I would have expected that you would have put more effort in your replies, rather than taking an infallible dogmatic attitude in your reply.

Here is an example of how you have replied to my statement below....

Neither the serpent nor the earthly conditions would be there, because as according to my reply to your first quote, timeless eternity isn't transient of states and so you have a totally different existence that isn't played out in time.

You reply as follows....

And as I said, you couldn't have possibly been more wrong.

The reason I composed my answer to you the way I did is to let you sweat a little, because I knew that you would take a while to respond.

I'm trying to help you here, but your replies are unsubstantiated at worst and ill informed at best.

Let me try to help you by leading you down a proper way to give a reason to why you believe what you believe instead of just blurting out your opinion. No person is infallible and we must take a fair and none biased approach. The first step is to be honest with ourselves, really truly and I mean that for me and you.

If you want to continue in dialogue by all means, therefore take my reply as a critical evaluation of your none reply reply, after all you might as well not replied at all, no one would have discovered your errors

 

[The Times]

@Nihilist Virus

Look here you go I will give you a handicap start by finding a verse that points to a timeless and stateless eternity.....

6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
(Zechariah 14:6-8)

I am not going to spoon feed you completely, because I ask you politely to read it and interpret what it means. I will give you some clues....

Here they are.....

The day the earth stood still

Day and night are light state cycles of earthly realm turning on its axis in the time domain.

Winter and summer are seasonal state cycles of earthly realm in correlation to Sun.

Rain is a seasonal state cycle.

I have even put the versus in bold.

You have a choice Neo to either take the red or the blue pill.

 

[Tull]

No it doesn't.

Yes it does,would you like me to quote it,it may be embarrassing in light of your claim that you have read the Bible,also 1 Peter 3:15 says be ready to give an answer not argue with someone who doesn't like the answer you give

Right, and you should instead be pursuing truth for its own sake.

No one is stopping you from pursuing your "truth" yet you harass others who are following theirs.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

What do you mean "God has not already created the conditions of heaven?" Why is it necessary that God creates an exact heaven to begin with?

Necessary? Necessary for what?

As I understand, the Garden of Eden was heaven-like but was placed in a war-zone. The earth was not perfect, there was much death and decay, the devil had already caused chaos throughout the creation process (all the death and suffering in the evolutionary progression of life occurred before the Garden of Eden became).

But isn't all of that suffering pointless if God could have easily prevented it?