Earth, heaven, and pointlessness

[Nihilist Virus]

Judeo-Christianity attempts to explain not only how we are here, but also why (the purpose of existence). Yet if we examine the Christian worldview, it's clear that our existence on earth is pointless.

When you are in heaven (or on the new earth... Christian lingo is inconsistent here), will you have free will? As far as I understand it, even Calvanists believe in free will, that is, they believe that one can make a choice free of coercion. My understanding is that you will have free will in heaven but no desire to sin. Why didn't God create us like that to begin with?* If Christians prefer to be in heaven, and if God would've preferred to not die on the cross, then what is the actual point of the universe's existence? In trying to explain it, Christianity renders it moot.

If you have to resort to confusion to explain our purpose on earth, please don't even bother posting. If you post here to admit that you don't know our purpose or what it could possibly be, I'll admire your honesty (ask yourself the follow-up question: why believe in something by faith which cannot explain anything even if it is granted to be true?). If you say we exist for God's glory, his good pleasure, or for some other idea that does something for God and nothing for you, then face the fact that Jesus died for his own purposes and that it wasn't for you (this idea is presumably heretical as it contradicts John 3:16, the most famous passage in the entire Bible). If God loves us, why not do what's best for us instead of putting us on this earth?


*Please don't tell me that he already did so with Adam and Eve; if Adam and Eve were created IN THE SAME STATE that you will be in, then there will be a fall in heaven.

Possible counter argument:

Adam and Eve were deceived by the serpent, and there will be no serpent in heaven.

But then God has not already created the conditions of heaven, so the argument fails.

 

[Gabe7587]

Well, very interesting question. I believe I've faced this question with my own Atheist Family members. The answer to that question, I really don't know (yet). But are you familiar with the story of Job in the Bible? He has a whole book in the Bible for him. Job lost all his family, riches, wealth, livestock, and wife. And for parts of the book Job complains to God simply "Why have you done this to me". And God replies back with this with 2 chapters of dialogue ( you don't have to read it.) But see for the answer at the bottom!

The LORD Answers Job

Job 38

1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:

2“Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
3Dress for actiona like a man;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.

4“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
5Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
7when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8“Or who shut in the sea with doors
when it burst out from the womb,
9when I made clouds its garment
and thick darkness its swaddling band,
10and prescribed limits for it
and set bars and doors,
11and said, ‘Thus far shall you come, and no farther,
and here shall your proud waves be stayed’?

12“Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
and caused the dawn to know its place,
13that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth,
and the wicked be shaken out of it?
14It is changed like clay under the seal,
and its features stand out like a garment.
15From the wicked their light is withheld,
and their uplifted arm is broken.

16“Have you entered into the springs of the sea,
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17Have the gates of death been revealed to you,
or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
18Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth?
Declare, if you know all this.

19“Where is the way to the dwelling of light,
and where is the place of darkness,
20that you may take it to its territory
and that you may discern the paths to its home?
21You know, for you were born then,
and the number of your days is great!

22“Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
23which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
for the day of battle and war?
24What is the way to the place where the light is distributed,
or where the east wind is scattered upon the earth?

25“Who has cleft a channel for the torrents of rain
and a way for the thunderbolt,
26to bring rain on a land where no man is,
on the desert in which there is no man,
27to satisfy the waste and desolate land,
and to make the ground sprout with grass?

28“Has the rain a father,
or who has begotten the drops of dew?
29From whose womb did the ice come forth,
and who has given birth to the frost of heaven?
30The waters become hard like stone,
and the face of the deep is frozen.

31“Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades
or loose the cords of Orion?
32Can you lead forth the Mazzarothb in their season,
or can you guide the Bear with its children?
33Do you know the ordinances of the heavens?
Can you establish their rule on the earth?

34“Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,
that a flood of waters may cover you?
35Can you send forth lightnings, that they may go
and say to you, ‘Here we are’?
36Who has put wisdom in the inward partsc
or given understanding to the mind?d
37Who can number the clouds by wisdom?
Or who can tilt the waterskins of the heavens,
38when the dust runs into a mass
and the clods stick fast together?

39“Can you hunt the prey for the lion,
or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
40when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in their thicket?
41Who provides for the raven its prey,
when its young ones cry to God for help,
and wander about for lack of food?

Job 39

1“Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you observe the calving of the does?
2Can you number the months that they fulfill,
and do you know the time when they give birth,
3when they crouch, bring forth their offspring,
and are delivered of their young?
4Their young ones become strong; they grow up in the open;
they go out and do not return to them.

5“Who has let the wild donkey go free?
Who has loosed the bonds of the swift donkey,
6to whom I have given the arid plain for his home
and the salt land for his dwelling place?
7He scorns the tumult of the city;
he hears not the shouts of the driver.
8He ranges the mountains as his pasture,
and he searches after every green thing.

9“Is the wild ox willing to serve you?
Will he spend the night at your manger?
10Can you bind him in the furrow with ropes,
or will he harrow the valleys after you?
11Will you depend on him because his strength is great,
and will you leave to him your labor?
12Do you have faith in him that he will return your grain
and gather it to your threshing floor?

13“The wings of the ostrich wave proudly,
but are they the pinions and plumage of love?a
14For she leaves her eggs to the earth
and lets them be warmed on the ground,
15forgetting that a foot may crush them
and that the wild beast may trample them.
16She deals cruelly with her young, as if they were not hers;
though her labor be in vain, yet she has no fear,
17because God has made her forget wisdom
and given her no share in understanding.
18When she rouses herself to flee,b
she laughs at the horse and his rider.

19“Do you give the horse his might?
Do you clothe his neck with a mane?
20Do you make him leap like the locust?
His majestic snorting is terrifying.
21He pawsc in the valley and exults in his strength;
he goes out to meet the weapons.
22He laughs at fear and is not dismayed;
he does not turn back from the sword.
23Upon him rattle the quiver,
the flashing spear, and the javelin.
24With fierceness and rage he swallows the ground;
he cannot stand still at the sound of the trumpet.
25When the trumpet sounds, he says ‘Aha!’
He smells the battle from afar,
the thunder of the captains, and the shouting.

26“Is it by your understanding that the hawk soars
and spreads his wings toward the south?
27Is it at your command that the eagle mounts up
and makes his nest on high?
28On the rock he dwells and makes his home,
on the rocky crag and stronghold.
29From there he spies out the prey;
his eyes behold it from far away.
30His young ones suck up blood,
and where the slain are, there is he.”

Job 40
1And the LORD said to Job:

2“Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty?
He who argues with God, let him answer it.”

All this simply means, even if he could explain it to us, we wouldn't understand.

 

[PollyJetix]

Because God preferred to send His Son to die on the cross.
<Staff Edit>

 

[redleghunter]

The unequivocal answer is Love.

 

[Tull]

The just shall live by faith.....with countless unanswered questions that they will simply have to live with.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Well, very interesting question. I believe I've faced this question with my own Atheist Family members. The answer to that question, I really don't know (yet). But are you familiar with the story of Job in the Bible? He has a whole book in the Bible for him. Job lost all his family, riches, wealth, livestock, and wife. And for parts of the book Job complains to God simply "Why have you done this to me". And God replies back with this with 2 chapters of dialogue ( you don't have to read it.) But see for the answer at the bottom!

The LORD Answers Job

Job 38

1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:

2“Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
3Dress for actiona like a man;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.

4“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
5Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
7when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8“Or who shut in the sea with doors
when it burst out from the womb,
9when I made clouds its garment
and thick darkness its swaddling band,
10and prescribed limits for it
and set bars and doors,
11and said, ‘Thus far shall you come, and no farther,
and here shall your proud waves be stayed’?

12“Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
and caused the dawn to know its place,
13that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth,
and the wicked be shaken out of it?
14It is changed like clay under the seal,
and its features stand out like a garment.
15From the wicked their light is withheld,
and their uplifted arm is broken.

16“Have you entered into the springs of the sea,
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17Have the gates of death been revealed to you,
or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
18Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth?
Declare, if you know all this.

19“Where is the way to the dwelling of light,
and where is the place of darkness,
20that you may take it to its territory
and that you may discern the paths to its home?
21You know, for you were born then,
and the number of your days is great!

22“Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
23which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
for the day of battle and war?
24What is the way to the place where the light is distributed,
or where the east wind is scattered upon the earth?

25“Who has cleft a channel for the torrents of rain
and a way for the thunderbolt,
26to bring rain on a land where no man is,
on the desert in which there is no man,
27to satisfy the waste and desolate land,
and to make the ground sprout with grass?

28“Has the rain a father,
or who has begotten the drops of dew?
29From whose womb did the ice come forth,
and who has given birth to the frost of heaven?
30The waters become hard like stone,
and the face of the deep is frozen.

31“Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades
or loose the cords of Orion?
32Can you lead forth the Mazzarothb in their season,
or can you guide the Bear with its children?
33Do you know the ordinances of the heavens?
Can you establish their rule on the earth?

34“Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,
that a flood of waters may cover you?
35Can you send forth lightnings, that they may go
and say to you, ‘Here we are’?
36Who has put wisdom in the inward partsc
or given understanding to the mind?d
37Who can number the clouds by wisdom?
Or who can tilt the waterskins of the heavens,
38when the dust runs into a mass
and the clods stick fast together?

39“Can you hunt the prey for the lion,
or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
40when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in their thicket?
41Who provides for the raven its prey,
when its young ones cry to God for help,
and wander about for lack of food?

Job 39

1“Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you observe the calving of the does?
2Can you number the months that they fulfill,
and do you know the time when they give birth,
3when they crouch, bring forth their offspring,
and are delivered of their young?
4Their young ones become strong; they grow up in the open;
they go out and do not return to them.

5“Who has let the wild donkey go free?
Who has loosed the bonds of the swift donkey,
6to whom I have given the arid plain for his home
and the salt land for his dwelling place?
7He scorns the tumult of the city;
he hears not the shouts of the driver.
8He ranges the mountains as his pasture,
and he searches after every green thing.

9“Is the wild ox willing to serve you?
Will he spend the night at your manger?
10Can you bind him in the furrow with ropes,
or will he harrow the valleys after you?
11Will you depend on him because his strength is great,
and will you leave to him your labor?
12Do you have faith in him that he will return your grain
and gather it to your threshing floor?

13“The wings of the ostrich wave proudly,
but are they the pinions and plumage of love?a
14For she leaves her eggs to the earth
and lets them be warmed on the ground,
15forgetting that a foot may crush them
and that the wild beast may trample them.
16She deals cruelly with her young, as if they were not hers;
though her labor be in vain, yet she has no fear,
17because God has made her forget wisdom
and given her no share in understanding.
18When she rouses herself to flee,b
she laughs at the horse and his rider.

19“Do you give the horse his might?
Do you clothe his neck with a mane?
20Do you make him leap like the locust?
His majestic snorting is terrifying.
21He pawsc in the valley and exults in his strength;
he goes out to meet the weapons.
22He laughs at fear and is not dismayed;
he does not turn back from the sword.
23Upon him rattle the quiver,
the flashing spear, and the javelin.
24With fierceness and rage he swallows the ground;
he cannot stand still at the sound of the trumpet.
25When the trumpet sounds, he says ‘Aha!’
He smells the battle from afar,
the thunder of the captains, and the shouting.

26“Is it by your understanding that the hawk soars
and spreads his wings toward the south?
27Is it at your command that the eagle mounts up
and makes his nest on high?
28On the rock he dwells and makes his home,
on the rocky crag and stronghold.
29From there he spies out the prey;
his eyes behold it from far away.
30His young ones suck up blood,
and where the slain are, there is he.”

Job 40
1And the LORD said to Job:

2“Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty?
He who argues with God, let him answer it.”

All this simply means, even if he could explain it to us, we wouldn't understand.

Thanks. I'm aware of that passage as I've read the entire Bible.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So he created us to be his very own reality TV show? You mention interaction between us and him, but that hasn't happened for 2000 years.

Did I say precisely that we have "some interaction" with God/Christ, NV? If you think I did, you have some interesting exegetical frames through which you're seeing my writing. You might want to read what I said in this way: I can "respond" to God based on what I read in the Bible, and this is done in combination with the personal experiences I have in the world.

Nothing here says that I'm equating all of this with any perception of my own that I am, in some way, interacting 'directly' with God. As far as I can acknowledge, I can't say that I am. However, from God's joyful point of view, I may very well be. But, I can't see that as part of my personal experience. (Of course, I wish I could, though).

Reality TV show? That's an interesting take on it, I must say. So....Jesus did all that He did, for the joy of watching His own reality TV show, with us as his prime-time players. ..........neat! It almost sounds like our considerations could take us into the orbit of Descartes or Berkeley.

 

[SkyWriting]

Judeo-Christianity attempts to explain not only how we are here, but also why (the purpose of existence). Yet if we examine the Christian worldview, it's clear that our existence on earth is pointless.

God exists outside of time and knows the past and future.
Humans do not know the future, and usually forget the past.
Anyway, there is no way to reconcile Gods view with mans,
regarding free will. It is impossible for man to consider
that the future can be known.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Did I say precisely that we have "some interaction" with God/Christ, NV? If you think I did, you have some interesting exegetical frames through which you're seeing my writing. You might want to read what I said in this way: I can "respond" to God based on what I read in the Bible, and this is done in combination with the personal experiences I have in the world.

Ok... except he did interact with us and wildly interfere in human affairs until abruptly ceasing 2000 years ago. So for the last 2000 years, he's been enjoying reality TV and getting our occasional #HiGod tweets.

Nothing here says that I'm equating all of this with any perception of my own that I am, in some way, interacting 'directly' with God. As far as I can acknowledge, I can't say that I am. However, from God's joyful point of view, I may very well be.

Right... so... reality TV.

But, I can't see that as part of my personal experience. (Of course, I wish I could, though).

Reality TV show? That's an interesting take on it, I must say. So....Jesus did all that He did, for the joy of watching His own reality TV show, with us as his prime-time players. ..........neat! It almost sounds like our considerations could take us into the orbit of Descartes or Berkeley.

As always we aren't following each other. Some day you'll be real with me. Until then, put on a good show for God.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

God exists outside of time and knows the past and future.
Humans do not know the future, and usually forget the past.
Anyway, there is no way to reconcile Gods view with mans,
regarding free will. It is impossible for man to consider
that the future can be known.

Thanks but off topic.

 

[PollyJetix]

Thank you so much for your condescending answer. Unfortunately, your answer is totally wrong because Jesus is God (see statement of faith on this forum), and Jesus did not want to die. You'd know this if you read his prayer in the garden.

Furthermore, if God really did want to torture himself, or his son, or whatever, he wouldn't need to create us to do so.

So please wrap your little mind around this: if you start off with a smart ass remark, and then you remove the smart part, what are you left with?

Well, for the first part, Jesus was God, but He was also man. His flesh-side didn't want to die, but his spirit-side (His divine part) was committed to the plan. He was tempted (tested) in all points like as we are, yet without sin.

You assume you are so incredibly smart that you can saunter up to Deity and demand He explain all of His reasons for everything. As they say, to assume is to make an ass out of u and me. An ass of course, being nothing but a donkey.

As you point out, God had many options.
And He didn't tell us why He chose to do things the way He did.
But I can guarantee one thing: with your attitude, you will find out nothing from Him.
He only reveals Himself to the humble.

 

[Tull]

But I can guarantee one thing: with your attitude, you will find out nothing from Him.
He only reveals Himself to the humble.

Like many Atheist this one claims to have read the entire bible,if so then they should be aware that no where in the bible does it state any obligation by those who believe to provide"proof" to anyone who does not believe in God's existence.

The bible plainly says they like everyone have a choice to believe by faith along with the evidence of creation,if they reject that then there is no more hope for them,but in our man centered religion we have made the gospel part of a debate agenda where one "wins" or "loses" like in a tennis match.

 

[crossnote]

The purposes of God may not be fully known but the purpose of this Forum has been made clear...

"The primary focus of this forum is Christian evangelism and discipleship, not to debate Christian Theology or challenge, attack, or argue against, Christianity. If any non-Christian member would like to challenge Christianity, they may do so in the Christian Apologeticsforum."

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Ok... except he did interact with us and wildly interfere in human affairs until abruptly ceasing 2000 years ago. So for the last 2000 years, he's been enjoying reality TV and getting our occasional #HiGod tweets.



Right... so... reality TV.



As always we aren't following each other. Some day you'll be real with me. Until then, put on a good show for God.

What would 'real' look like to you, NV? From my vantage point, and on a practical scale, you're wanting me to ignore countless hours of studying other PhD and ThD level minds, and then just listen to and acknowledge yours.

Here's what "real," NV. You have your collection of books/sources by which you've come to measure your experience of the world, and I have mine. And that's what it is.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Like many Atheist this one claims to have read the entire bible,if so then they should be aware that no where in the bible does it state any obligation by those who believe to provide"proof" to anyone who does not believe in God's existence.

1 Peter 3:15

The bible plainly says they like everyone have a choice to believe by faith along with the evidence of creation,

No it doesn't.

if they reject that then there is no more hope for them,but in our man centered religion we have made the gospel part of a debate agenda where one "wins" or "loses" like in a tennis match.

Right, and you should instead be pursuing truth for its own sake.

 

[Gabe7587]

Respect the views of NV. I believe he read the entire Bible. We need to stop bashing him. We need to provide a good example to Nihilist Virus. No matter if he's nice or not ( your cool NV).

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

so it seems the OP has a problem with how God chose to glorify himself.

well, you can't stop a created thing from using the very things God gave them to complain but all complaints are invalid as the created thing has no place to tell or dictate to it's creator what and for what purpose they are to create.

Isaiah 46:9-10
Daniel 4:35
romans 9:19-21

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Respect the views of NV. I believe he read the entire Bible. We need to stop bashing him. We need to provide a good example to Nihilist Virus. No matter if he's nice or not ( your cool NV).

Gabe....can I borrow your shield? And *ahem*...your sword? I need to do some respectful talking with NV.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

What would 'real' look like to you, NV? From my vantage point, and on a practical scale, you're wanting me to ignore countless hours of studying other PhD and ThD level minds, and then just listen to and acknowledge yours.

Here's what "real," NV. You have your collection of books/sources by which you've come to measure your experience of the world, and I have mine. And that's what it is.

Your devotion to your theological studies is worth as much to me as a Muslim's theological studies are worth to you.

 

[SkyWriting]

As far as I understand it, even Calvanists believe in free will, that is, they believe that one can make a choice free of coercion. My understanding is that you will have free will in heaven but no desire to sin. Why didn't God create us like that to begin with?* If Christians prefer to be in heaven, and if God would've preferred to not die on the cross, then what is the actual point of the universe's existence?

God exists outside of time and knows the past and future.
Humans do not know the future, and usually forget the past.
Anyway, there is no way to reconcile Gods view with mans,
regarding free will. It is impossible for man to consider
that the future can be known.

The Cosmos exists for people, People exist becasue God likes company.