Early beliefs about hell.

[Exjunkman]

I had heard that the very early church fathers had no teaching or beliefs about hell.
I mean, think about it, there wasn't even one mention of it in all of the law or old testament.
I did some research and found that until Augustine, there wasn't any beliefs in a place if eternal torture after death, yet it is a major focus in modern church teaching.

What say you?

 

[miamited]

I had heard that the very early church fathers had no teaching or beliefs about hell.
I mean, think about it, there wasn't even one mention of it in all of the law or old testament.
I did some research and found that until Augustine, there wasn't any beliefs in a place if eternal torture after death, yet it is a major focus in modern church teaching.

What say you?

Hi ex,

Well, while you're looking for things that are missing in the OT that we find in copious amount in the new, here are a few more: eternal life, judgment.

Jesus said that when we are born again we can see the kingdom of God. Here's what I see that God has done and is doing in His kingdom. He created and man sinned. He raised up a people to do His work among all the nations of the earth. The purpose of His raising up these people, Israel, was that they were given the honor of writing all that God wanted us to know about Him and what He had done. Paul tells us that the chief value in being a Jew was that they had been entrusted with the very words of God.

God worked diligently with these people even though He repeatedly brought suffering upon them for their repeated unfaithfulness, but God had a bigger plan to be worked out in what Israel had to do. He was, as Isaiah writes, bringing His salvation to all the ends of the earth. So, all that we read in the old covenant is God working in and through His people to tell us how we got here, what happened that needs to be fixed and that He was going to provide that 'fix'. As a matter of fact, you will find that in the old covenant when a great and faithful man of God died there isn't any mention that he was going to heaven, but rather that he would rest with his forefathers and we know that all the forefathers were not faithful.

You see, until Jesus came and paid the price for sin, those long dead in Israel couldn't receive the promise of salvation. Then Jesus came! The Scriptures had been written that told us all about him and what to be looking for in him so that we could identify him and he came. He came to bring eternal life! So, now we are given the end of the plan. That one day there will be a judgment of all men. That when that judgment is over there will be two groups of people left standing. One group will be cast away from God's presence and the other will receive the gift of God's eternal rest.

So, until Jesus came and paid the price for sin there was no promise of eternal life for all men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Without the shed blood of the Lamb there was no acceptable sacrifice made for man's sin. This is why we find in the Revelation of Jesus Christ that one of the first things that John sees when he is ushered into God's kingdom is a Lamb who is before the throne looking as though he had been slain. And only because that Lamb was lain before the throne of God as His acceptable sacrifice for sin, are we, today, able to hold to the promise of eternal life. Hell, eternal life and judgment didn't become issues until after Jesus paid the price for our sin. It wasn't until Jesus died that there was a choice to be paid.

God bless you.
IN Christ, Ted

 

[Exjunkman]

Wow. So are you saying that all OT people, including OT Jews are in this NT Hell?
The whole sunject is intriging to me, but nobody seems willing to discuss it!

 

[mark kennedy]

I had heard that the very early church fathers had no teaching or beliefs about hell.
I mean, think about it, there wasn't even one mention of it in all of the law or old testament.
I did some research and found that until Augustine, there wasn't any beliefs in a place if eternal torture after death, yet it is a major focus in modern church teaching.

What say you?

That is something that puzzled me for the longest time. Jesus is the only one who really has anything to say about hell, but what he has to say is breath taking. He actually relates a conversation between Abraham and the rich man in hell. How about, 'cut off your hand and throw it away, better to lose one of your members then have your whole body cast into hell'?

If you have a problem with the doctrine of hell being a place of torture, or a place of 'wailing and gnashing of teeth' it's because that's what Jesus taught.

There is a point to this, no one knew anything about hell, except Jesus. That would explain why the Early Church Fathers really didn't say much about it, my guess, is they didn't really know anything about it and it wasn't an issue for them.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[juvenissun]

I had heard that the very early church fathers had no teaching or beliefs about hell.
I mean, think about it, there wasn't even one mention of it in all of the law or old testament.
I did some research and found that until Augustine, there wasn't any beliefs in a place if eternal torture after death, yet it is a major focus in modern church teaching.

What say you?

In the Old Testament time, there is a place for all the dead to go. It is called Sheol. And there is a description of it in the Book of Job:

3:17 There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.
3:18 There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.
3:19 The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

 

[Exjunkman]

In the Old Testament time, there is a place for all the dead to go. It is called Sheol. And there is a description of it in the Book of Job:

3:17 There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.
3:18 There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.
3:19 The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

Yabut that place sounds kinda nice. Much better than boiling in oil and being salted with fire.
So... Before Christ people went to a nice place and after the savior, 90+ % of them are tortured forever.? Now I'm really confused.

 

[miamited]

hi ex,

Let me see if I can explain. Job is speaking of dying, not eternal destiny. God told the Patriarchs as they were ready to die that they would be gathered with their people. Salvation was not availabe to anyone until the sacrifice was made!

So yes, Job is correct that he expected, and the Scriptures do seem to claim, that when people die the first death they rest in their graves until the resurrection. This is what Martha, the sister of Lazarus, told Jesus. "Yes Lord, I know that he will live again at the resurrection of the righteous." But, this death that we experience when we leave this earth is not the final destiny. That comes at the end. It is explained fully in the last two chapters of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

So, don't confuse this death that you or I might die today or tomorrow with what Jesus called the 'second' death. Please don't misunderstand the Scriptures. If you die today you won't go to hell. You will rest in your grave until that day when God raises up all the dead. Those buried in the ground and those thrown into the sea, and then there will be judgment for all men in regards to whether or not they believed God. Those who believed and choose to serve Him will be given their reward of eternal life. They will be saved from God's wrath. Those who refused will be condemned and set away from His presence where Jesus explains there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth and the worm never dies.

God bless you.
IN Christ, Ted

 

[juvenissun]

Yabut that place sounds kinda nice. Much better than boiling in oil and being salted with fire.
So... Before Christ people went to a nice place and after the savior, 90+ % of them are tortured forever.? Now I'm really confused.

Yes, that is one of the major difference between Judaism and Christianity. But, in respond to the OP, the place called hell was indeed mentioned in the OT.

 

[mark kennedy]

hi ex,

Let me see if I can explain. Job is speaking of dying, not eternal destiny. God told the Patriarchs as they were ready to die that they would be gathered with their people. Salvation was not availabe to anyone until the sacrifice was made!

Why was Abraham prepared to do this?

By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” (Hebrews 11:17,18)​

So, don't confuse this death that you or I might die today or tomorrow with what Jesus called the 'second' death. Please don't misunderstand the Scriptures. If you die today you won't go to hell. You will rest in your grave until that day when God raises up all the dead. Those buried in the ground and those thrown into the sea, and then there will be judgment for all men in regards to whether or not they believed God. Those who believed and choose to serve Him will be given their reward of eternal life. They will be saved from God's wrath. Those who refused will be condemned and set away from His presence where Jesus explains there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth and the worm never dies.

God bless you.
IN Christ, Ted

Close, except for the part about soul sleep. When you die you body falls to the ground but your soul is either going to heaven or hell. In the resurrection you are raised bodily and either enter into the new heavens and the new earth or the lake of fire.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[miamited]

Why was Abraham prepared to do this?

By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” (Hebrews 11:17,18)
​

Close, except for the part about soul sleep. When you die you body falls to the ground but your soul is either going to heaven or hell. In the resurrection you are raised bodily and either enter into the new heavens and the new earth or the lake of fire.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Hi Mark,

Why was Abraham prepared to do this? Because God had asked him to and Abraham was faithful. That is why this very account is given in the book of Hebrews along with all the other 'signs' of faithfulness throughout the Patriarchs and the few other faithful in Israel.

As to your second claim. I disagree. In the final chapters of the Revelation of our Lord Jesus we are told that all the dead will be raised up and then those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life will be cast into the same pit where Satan has gone to be tormented day and night forever and ever. No one has been judged yet. The great judgment of God is still pending and it is following that great day of God's judgment that eternal destinies will be set.

This is why Jesus was able to say that the man who trusts in him will never die. The souls of those who pass through the first death that have established God's truth in their lives are the same souls that we read about under the altar of God in the Revelation. They are alive! The souls of everyone else are in hades, which is a holding place. The same place that Jesus went to preach and the same place that will give up all of its dead when God sounds the call to judgment. But Hades, also known as sheol, is not the final 'hell' that Jesus spoke of when he warned us that the one we are to fear is the one who can kill the body and then cast you into hell.

Friend, they are two different places and Job is speaking of the place that a soul goes after the first death. However, our disagreement is possibly just a matter of semantics. I find that Hades is the name given to the place where the unrighteous are between the first death and judgment and hell is the lake of fire that you mention. So, we obviously do agree that there are two different places that the unrighteous soul will find itself after the first death. I am firmly convicted that the old covenant shows the waiting place, hades, as not necessarily a terrible place and I think that this is just what Job was speaking of.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[gluadys]

In the Old Testament time, there is a place for all the dead to go. It is called Sheol. And there is a description of it in the Book of Job:

3:17 There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.
3:18 There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.
3:19 The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

Yabut that place sounds kinda nice. Much better than boiling in oil and being salted with fire.
So... Before Christ people went to a nice place and after the savior, 90+ % of them are tortured forever.? Now I'm really confused.

Right. Jesus' words are not about Sheol (which was translated into Greek as 'Hades'); Jesus used the term 'Gehenna' which referred to the Valley of Hinnom just outside Jerusalem and was the chief garbage dump of the city.

It had once been a place where the people of Jerusalem worshipped pagan gods, including child sacrifice, and was destroyed during the reform of King Josiah who made it a garbage dump instead.

Fires were always kept burning and fed with sulphur as well, both to consume the waste and to block the stench of the rotting material. And worms, of course, were a constant presence in rotting material just beyond reach of the flames.

So it is a good analogy of hell--but has nothing to do with Sheol/Hades which is simply a dwelling place of the dead.

Note as well that the bodies of criminals were normally tossed into Gehenna as well, denying them burial. And by ancient beliefs (pagan at least, I don't know about Judean), to be denied burial was to be denied entry into Sheol/Hades. Maybe this is why Jesus' depictions of Gehenna usually include the phrase "weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth"--very appropriate for those who cannot even find rest in death.

 

[Jase]

I had heard that the very early church fathers had no teaching or beliefs about hell.
I mean, think about it, there wasn't even one mention of it in all of the law or old testament.
I did some research and found that until Augustine, there wasn't any beliefs in a place if eternal torture after death, yet it is a major focus in modern church teaching.

What say you?

This is correct. There is no Hell in Judaism or the Old Testament. The current view so common among the Conservative Church is a later addition/interpretation. Probably had some influence from the Persians, and of course I'm sure Dante's Inferno and Milton's Paradise Lost help develop the imagery about it.

 

[Exjunkman]

This is correct. There is no Hell in Judaism or the Old Testament. The current view so common among the Conservative Church is a later addition/interpretation. Probably had some influence from the Persians, and of course I'm sure Dante's Inferno and Milton's Paradise Lost help develop the imagery about it.

I don't want to ruffle any feathers here. I was raised a Catholic and my nature is bent towards questioning everything. And this whole notion of a world where the vast majority of humans will be tortured for all of eternity while a small minority enjoys the bliss of heaven seems completely irrational. It makes sense in medeival times because fear and torture was a way of life, but when I consider the nature of the God of love, it makes no sense.

I just need help understanding.

BTW, I have heard probably 10,000 sermons from various denominations, so I know all of the standard responses. It just still doesn't jive with me.

 

[mark kennedy]

I don't want to ruffle any feathers here. I was raised a Catholic and my nature is bent towards questioning everything. And this whole notion of a world where the vast majority of humans will be tortured for all of eternity while a small minority enjoys the bliss of heaven seems completely irrational. It makes sense in medeival times because fear and torture was a way of life, but when I consider the nature of the God of love, it makes no sense.

I just need help understanding.

BTW, I have heard probably 10,000 sermons from various denominations, so I know all of the standard responses. It just still doesn't jive with me.

It's a tough doctrine, what is so bad about this condition called 'perdition' that it would warrant and eternity of suffering? I honestly have a hard time wrapping my mind around this one, don't get me wrong, I believe in final judgment and the fear of the Lord is the remedy (prevention might be a better word) but it is pretty hard to fathom.

The only way I know to deal with it is to trust God to render righteous judgment. I don't mean to dodge the question but it's cut and dried in the New Testament mostly because of the teachings of Jesus himself. Jesus showed us how to avoid hell, I think if you get focused on that, trust the one who judges righteously, final judgment can be taken into perspective.

I don't understand that condition, perdition I mean. No one but Jesus talks about it so I can only conclude that only God understands it. That's the best I can do with this subject, I realize that it's a tough one but that's how I deal with it.

But you offer forgiveness, that we might learn to fear you. (Psalm 130:4)​

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[juvenissun]

I don't want to ruffle any feathers here. I was raised a Catholic and my nature is bent towards questioning everything. And this whole notion of a world where the vast majority of humans will be tortured for all of eternity while a small minority enjoys the bliss of heaven seems completely irrational. It makes sense in medeival times because fear and torture was a way of life, but when I consider the nature of the God of love, it makes no sense.

I just need help understanding.

BTW, I have heard probably 10,000 sermons from various denominations, so I know all of the standard responses. It just still doesn't jive with me.

We are not talking about rational or irrational solution. We are talking about finding A solution (to the problem of human sin). And what we know (as you described it) is THE ONLY SOLUTION.

Any other solution you can imagine would be worse than this one. (you may try one and we can talk about it)

 

[Exjunkman]

One other wrench in the equasion is Romans 8:20

For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

It clearly says here that sin entered the world on purpose by HIM who caused it to happen. I really cannot belive the notion that God meant everything to be perfect forever and He goofed by craeting Lucifer who gummed up the works.
C'mon. We are talking about God Almighty. He knew fair well how it was all going to come down. You simply must admit the whole debaucle was a set up. You must.

You must agree that God wanted it this way.

So....Modern Christianity says God set up this system where a very small minority of humans would enjoy the bliss of heaven. Mostly because of the area of the world he grew up in and the specific time of history and perhaps the family he grew up in.
The rest will suffer in this life and the suffer for all of eternity in the agony of unending torture.

Is this the God of Love the bible speaks of?

 

[juvenissun]

One other wrench in the equasion is Romans 8:20

For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

It clearly says here that sin entered the world on purpose by HIM who caused it to happen. I really cannot belive the notion that God meant everything to be perfect forever and He goofed by craeting Lucifer who gummed up the works.
C'mon. We are talking about God Almighty. He knew fair well how it was all going to come down. You simply must admit the whole debaucle was a set up. You must.

You must agree that God wanted it this way.

So....Modern Christianity says God set up this system where a very small minority of humans would enjoy the bliss of heaven. Mostly because of the area of the world he grew up in and the specific time of history and perhaps the family he grew up in.
The rest will suffer in this life and the suffer for all of eternity in the agony of unending torture.

Is this the God of Love the bible speaks of?

God does not create a sinful Lucifer.
Angels who followed Lucifer are doing so on their own choice.
God does not make Adam sin.
God does not want anyone go to the hell.
People end up in the hell due to their own choice.

How could you make all these better according to you, assume you are the real loving one.

 

[Exjunkman]

God does not create a sinful Lucifer.
Angels who followed Lucifer are doing so on their own choice.
God does not make Adam sin.
God does not want anyone go to the hell.
People end up in the hell due to their own choice.

How could you make all these better according to you, assume you are the real loving one.

Hi he does not make anyone sin, but he certainly facilitated the possibility.
The fall of man was no surprise to God. He knew it would be this way before he made man.

 

[miamited]

Hi he does not make anyone sin, but he certainly facilitated the possibility.
The fall of man was no surprise to God. He knew it would be this way before he made man.

Hi,

Yes, He did. However, what the Spirit has shown me as I continue to read and study God's word and ask for His guidance and wisdom in understanding the things of God, is that God began the creation of this realm of existence knowing full well that the creature He would make to live in it would sin. But, God's ultimate goal was not Genesis 1 but
Revelation 21. Unfortunately, because of sin, the journey from Genesis 1 to Revelation 21 had to be made.

You see, friend, God's intention in creating mankind was to reach Revelation 21.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Exjunkman]

Hi,

Yes, He did. However, what the Spirit has shown me as I continue to read and study God's word and ask for His guidance and wisdom in understanding the things of God, is that God began the creation of this realm of existence knowing full well that the creature He would make to live in it would sin. But, God's ultimate goal was not Genesis 1 but
Revelation 21. Unfortunately, because of sin, the journey from Genesis 1 to Revelation 21 had to be made.

You see, friend, God's intention in creating mankind was to reach Revelation 21.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

And the hundreds of billions of souls suffering in agony for all of eternity........

......"tough luck, you made your bed now lie in it". This is the response I get from most Christians when asked. Either that or. "I just don't know what to tell you".