Be completely honest with yourself, is there something, about God that you do not want to find out truthfully because of fear?

ViaCrucis

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Our understanding of salvation is based on the gospel message. I have provided those scriptures!

Sinners must confess! No one can be saved without confession, that’s scriptural.

So a mute person can't be saved?

Also, how do you explain Ephesians 2:8-9? Confession is a work.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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biblelesson

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The Gospel declares that Christ died for all men. Our forgiveness was attained and won for us on the cross. Not by our doing anything. The only thing an infant needs to be in order to be forgiven is to be a sinner. Which they are.

Sinful acts arise from the fact that we are, ourselves, actually sinful.

Have you also not considered that, according to your theological opinion here, that deeply dire and disturbing moral implications? The implication of what you're saying is that the best way to ensure that our children will be in heaven is that they die before they are "old enough". That makes abortion and infanticide the most merciful thing anyone could ever do for their child.

And any counter-argument against that, such as that God says murder is wrong and therefore God will condemn those who murder infants doesn't really matter. Because if I knew that by allowing my child to grow up there was a chance they could go to hell, but if they died while young enough they were guaranteed a free ticket to paradise, then even if I were to somehow condemn myself to hell by my atrocious act of murdering a child at least that child would be with Jesus. Wouldn't a loving parent willingly throw away their chance of eternal happiness if it meant securing eternal security for their child?

I realize this is a deeply uncomfortable and disturbing topic. But this is the real and serious moral and theological consequences of what you are talking about.

Can you offer an argument to demonstrate that I'd be wrong here? How can you believe an infant is guaranteed heaven by virtue of their infancy and not have the moral implications I've mentioned above?

-CryptoLutheran
Confession is unto salvation. You must believe on Christ, and confess your sins, and “then” be baptized.
 
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biblelesson

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So a mute person can't be saved?

-CryptoLutheran
A mute person can confess. You have sign language for people who are mute. You have pictorial lessons, and many other ways to introduce Christ. All they need to do is nod their heads as a form of confession. Not so with a baby.
 
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BurningBush84

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There cannot be forgiveness without confession of sins. You know those scriptures. So, how can a baby confess sins?


There cannot be forgiveness without confession of sins. You know those scriptures. So, how can a baby confess sins?

Obviously a baby can't confess. Mark 16:16 doesn't mention confession.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Confession is unto salvation. You must believe on Christ, and confess your sins, and “then” be baptized.

The Bible doesn't say this. It says God saves us by His grace, through faith. It says we are to confess our sins, it says we are to be baptized. But it doesn't give this order you have presented.

You're creating a works-based system of salvation that is entirely contrary to the message of the Gospel as taught in Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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A mute person can confess. You have sign language for people who are mute. You have pictorial lessons, and many other ways to introduce Christ. All they need to do is nod their heads as a form of confession. Not so with a baby.

What if they can't nod, or what if they have learning a learning disability, or what if they are blind, or don't know sign language?

The point is that you can't make a person's work the thing that saves them, that's works-based salvation. You are placing salvation into human hands and saying it's up to them cross the right t's and dot the right i's--that salvation is something we attain by something we do.

We confess our sins, of course. But it isn't a work of confession that saves us. It is God who saves us by what Christ has done already by His life, death, and resurrection.

Go back and read through Romans 10 again. But read it slowly and carefully. It says if we believe in our heart and confess with our mouth we shall be saved,, but it does not say that confession is what saves us.

What does the Scripture say? Abraham had faith and it was credited to him as righteousness. Faith, not confessing the right things, is what makes us new people--because God gives faith, that is what being a new creation means, having faith. From faith comes confession, from faith comes confessing our sins; from faith comes confessing the truth of God's word, from faith comes the entire Christian life, good works, obedience, etc.

But it is not our works, it is not our obedience, it is not the things we do that save us; it is God alone who saves us by His grace alone, through faith alone, faith which He alone gives.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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biblelesson

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Obviously a baby can't confess. Mark 16:16 doesn't mention confession.
Ok, let’s see. You have a 2 month old baby. Now lets see you have a conversation with that baby about Christ so the baby can believe in Christ first before being baptized. Don’t forget to feed the baby its bottle though. So, if you did accomplish getting a 2 month old baby to tell you they believed, in the middle of feeding maybe, I guess that child can tell you they are ready to be baptized! Or are you deciding for the baby, and that’s not scriptural!
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Our understanding of salvation is based on the gospel message. I have provided those scriptures!

Sinners must confess! No one can be saved without confession, that’s scriptural.
Paul didn't make a confession before he was baptized. The Philippian jailor didn't make a credible confession before he was baptized. John the Baptist and Jeremiah were regenerated within the womb by the Holy Spirit. They didn't confess yet they were saved.

Just maybe, we are saved BEFORE we make confession. Regeneration allows us to confess. American evangelicals are so predictable....they always want to take human credit for their part in the salvation process.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Ok, let’s see. You have a 2 month old baby. Now lets see you have a conversation with that baby about Christ so the baby can believe in Christ first before being baptized. Don’t forget to feed the baby its bottle though. So, if you did accomplish getting a 2 month old baby to tell you they believed, in the middle of feeding maybe, I guess that child can tell you they are ready to be baptized! Or are you deciding for the baby, and that’s not scriptural!

God commanded the Jews to circumcise their male children. True or false?
Paul says that it is baptism that is our spiritual circumcision made without hands. True or false?

Before answering that second question, go and read Colossians chapter 2. And really think about your answer.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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biblelesson

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The Bible doesn't say this. It says God saves us by His grace, through faith. It says we are to confess our sins, it says we are to be baptized. But it doesn't give this order you have presented.

You're creating a works-based system of salvation that is entirely contrary to the message of the Gospel as taught in Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran
Yes it does absolutely

Romans 10:10 KJV says with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Proverbs 28:13 KJV, He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Romans 10:9 KJV, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1 John 1:9 KJV, If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
 
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biblelesson

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God commanded the Jews to circumcise their male children. True or false?
Paul says that it is baptism that is our spiritual circumcision made without hands. True or false?

Before answering that second question, go and read Colossians chapter 2. And really think about your answer.

-CryptoLutheran
The Jews were under a covenant, the law, that required the male child to be circumcised as a seal relating to the covenant God made with Abraham. That covenant would lead to Abraham’s seed, Christ, who would save the world of sin.

Once Christ comes (he came already) there would no more requirement to keep the law. Jeremiah 31:33 KJV speaks of this where God said, “but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.” This scripture foretells the spiritual circumcison.

The writing of the laws in the inward parts is by the Holy Spirit that we receive when we “believe” on Christ. Ephesians 1:13 KJV, “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

It’s no more of works, but of grace.
 
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BurningBush84

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Ok, let’s see. You have a 2 month old baby. Now lets see you have a conversation with that baby about Christ so the baby can believe in Christ first before being baptized. Don’t forget to feed the baby its bottle though. So, if you did accomplish getting a 2 month old baby to tell you they believed, in the middle of feeding maybe, I guess that child can tell you they are ready to be baptized! Or are you deciding for the baby, and that’s not scriptural!
"all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." Galatians 3:27

"be baptized and wash your sins away"
Acts 22:16

The Holy Spirit creates faith in the child =

"be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Romans 10:10 KJV says with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
You are saved not by the mouthing of words, but by Christ's laying hold, through the instrumentality of faith. The confession of the mouth tells what is in the heart. Saving faith is a gift that apprehends the Savior, who does the saving. God gives that apprehension to whom he will, by what means he will. He can bypass the intellect if he wants, as he did in the case of John the Baptist, who leaped for joy in the womb at the nearness of his Lord. But God ordinarily uses the preached Word to move the heart toward him all the life long.

God can grant faith to anyone he wants REGARDLESS OF AGE.

Saving faith does not depend on the ability of the brain or the ability to talk. A properly functioning brain or vocal cords helps us confirm that we have been given saving faith.

The standard requirement of a credible confession of faith for baptism and entrance into the visible church ends up excluding everyone who is not an adult of good health, mental ability, and rational development.
 
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biblelesson

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You are saved not by the mouthing of words, but by Christ's laying hold, through the instrumentality of faith. The confession of the mouth tells what is in the heart. Saving faith is a gift that apprehends the Savior, who does the saving. God gives that apprehension to whom he will, by what means he will. He can bypass the intellect if he wants, as he did in the case of John the Baptist, who leaped for joy in the womb at the nearness of his Lord. But God ordinarily uses the preached Word to move the heart toward him all the life long.

God can grant faith to anyone he wants REGARDLESS OF AGE.

Saving faith does not depend on the ability of the brain or the ability to talk. A properly functioning brain or vocal cords helps us confirm that we have been given saving faith.

The standard requirement of a credible confession of faith for baptism and entrance into the visible church ends up excluding everyone who is not an adult of good health, mental ability, and rational development.
There is a difference in mouthing the words Vs humbly confessing our sins and repenting. It still requires that we make that confession to God and in our hearts.
 
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biblelesson

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"all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." Galatians 3:27

"be baptized and wash your sins away"
Acts 22:16

The Holy Spirit creates faith in the child =

"be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38
The Holy Spirit is already in the child. That’s why the child’s does not need to be baptized for salvation.

No just think. If the Holy Spirit will go as far as securing a child’s salvation by creating faith in that child to justify baptizing babies, then that means the child already has the Holy Spirit’s presence. The Holy Spirit’s presence is an assurance of salvation. So if the child has this assurance already, why would there be a need to baptize him/her?

We don’t receive the Holy Spirit until we believe and then we receive the Holy Spirit when we are baptized, Acts 2:38 KJV. But what you’re saying is the child already has the Holy Spirit which gives the child faith. If the child already has the Holy Spirit, then there is no need to be baptized.

A child’s spirit is innocent. That’s why a child does not need to be baptized for salvation. If that child died he/she is automatically with Christ.

But you are saying that even though the child already has the Holy Spirit, that if they die without being baptized, that child will be damed forever. But how can that be if the Holy Spirit that is in us is the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead? Romans 8:11 KJV.
 
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Diamond7

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Who will be in resurrection? The cells without a personality or some adult person God will artificially create from those dead cells?
Everyone will be in the resurrection, some will inherit eternal life, and some eternal destruction. We return to the elements, but John Wesley believed the exact same elements that make us up will be resurrected. It could be that every atom that makes us up can contain all the information needed to reconstruct us. In quantum physics, a proton can store infinite information. There are vastly more atoms in our body than bits of information on the internet. It could be 700,000 times more. The bible talks about counting the stars in Heaven or counting the grains of sand on the beach of the ocean.
 
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Diamond7

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That’s why the child’s does not need to be baptized for salvation.
Child baptism is a dedication service where the church agrees together to raise the child to be a Christian. They child goes through a dedication service when they are old enough to decide if they want to join the church or not. In adult baptism that becomes they devote themselves to God.
 
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biblelesson

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Child baptism is a dedication service where the church agrees together to raise the child to be a Christian. They child goes through a dedication service when they are old enough to decide if they want to join the church or not. In adult baptism that becomes they devote themselves to God.
This sounds beautiful and I can’t comment on this process.

The earlier discussion was a baby and small children need to be baptized to escape eternal judgment if they were to die.
 
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trophy33

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Everyone will be in the resurrection, some will inherit eternal life, and some eternal destruction. We return to the elements, but John Wesley believed the exact same elements that make us up will be resurrected. It could be that every atom that makes us up can contain all the information needed to reconstruct us. In quantum physics, a proton can store infinite information. There are vastly more atoms in our body than bits of information on the internet. It could be 700,000 times more. The bible talks about counting the stars in Heaven or counting the grains of sand on the beach of the ocean.
We are talking about abortions. Thats the context of my question. You claimed they will be in resurrection.

My question is what is there to be resurrected, when the aborted baby does not have any personality yet. You claim the whole future personality of a person is in a single atom of the fetus?
 
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