Be completely honest with yourself, is there something, about God that you do not want to find out truthfully because of fear?

[trophy33]

We all are born into sin, but to be punished for sin we must “commit a sin.” A child does not commit sin.

To what age?

 

[Diamond72]

I see it as more probable that their body goes back to the ground and their spirit back to God.

God knits us together in the womb. They will be in the resurrection. We see people with no arms and no legs that never fully united with their body. Yet they will have arms and legs in the resurrection. None of us will have a physical body in Heaven. Our body returns to the ground and Pauls says sleeps.

 

[Diamond72]

To what age?

Somewhere between 8 and 12. When I had an operation when I was around 8 I was falling in the bottomless pit. Now I know that the bottomless pit is a volcano.

 

[BurningBush84]

We all are born into sin, but to be punished for sin we must “commit a sin.” A child does not commit sin. The requirements to be forgiven of sin a child does not posses! A child cannot be under the law of sin because to sin is the transgression of the law. A child cannot transgress the law. So the law does not apply, and where there is no law, there is no transgression, Romans 4:15.

A 17 year old is considered a child. 17 year old's sin like crazy

 

[biblelesson]

I understand the sentiment of wanting to think that children aren't sinners. But the truth is that each and every single one of us entered into this world a sinner, we were conceived and born with this broken, wounded humanity.

Matthew 18:3 does not say that children are sinless, it says that we must be converted and become as children. Compare that with what Jesus says in John chapter 3 about being born again. Yes, we are to become as children, by new birth. To such as these belongs the kingdom because the kingdom isn't for the wise, the powerful, the elite--but for the simplest, the lowliest, the most vulnerable. Jesus also says, "The tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom ahead of you" (Matthew 21:31).

Why? Because the little children, the tax collectors, the prostitutes, the sinners, the lepers, the outcasts--the least and the outcast--were experiencing the breaking-in of God's kingdom through Jesus Christ in their midst; meanwhile the religious elites, the powerful, the wealthy were snubbing their nose at Jesus.

In Jesus God's kingdom is revealed, as He said to His accusers in Luke's Gospel, "The kingdom does not come with observation ... but rather the kingdom is in the midst of you" (Luke 17:21). How was the kingdom in the midst of hostile religious leaders? In the very Person and work of Jesus Himself.

So it is, that God came into our midst, God became man; and by Him and through Him is peace and reconciliation with God by His perfect life, death, and resurrection. So that all who trust in Him shall never be put to shame; but rather by the grace of God we are born anew as new people in the Messiah, with a new life from God with God in the Messiah. And this gift, this grace, is for all men, for all sinners. For infants and the old, for the weak and the infirm, for the tax collector, the prostitute, the sinner, the weak and the unwanted. For Jew and Gentile, slave and free, male and female.

So I understand the sentiment, but it is a monumental failure at understanding Scripture and is terrible theology.

Children aren't sinless and therefore get a free ride to heavenly bliss. Instead, God is good and gracious to us sinners, that's what the Gospel is all about. It is by His own grace and kindness, not by human purity or goodness, that He brings us into union and communion with Himself through Jesus. And this He does purely out of His own goodness toward us.

-CryptoLutheran

You said “So that all who trust in Him shall never be put to shame; but rather by the grace of God we are born anew as new people in the Messiah, with a new life from God with God in the Messiah.”

I’m pointing out the above verse to show a contradiction. Little babies, toddlers, and children who cannot understand as adults do cannot trust in God. They don’t understand what trusting in God means. You have shown where the scripture says all who trust in Him shall never be put to shame. So now, what about the little baby who cannot put his/her trust in Him? If your analogy is true, then you would have to say a baby is put to shame, and can never be saved because they don’t have the capability of putting their trust in Jesus!

So either a baby who can’t talk, can’t feed themselves, can confess Christ and be saved, or they cannot. From your analysis, if that baby can’t confess Christ, they cannot be saved. So then from your analogy, all babies are damed!

 

[BurningBush84]

You said “So that all who trust in Him shall never be put to shame; but rather by the grace of God we are born anew as new people in the Messiah, with a new life from God with God in the Messiah.”

I’m pointing out the above verse to show a contradiction. Little babies, toddlers, and children who cannot understand as adults do cannot trust in God. They don’t understand what trusting in God means. You have shown where the scripture says all who trust in Him shall never be put to shame. So now, what about the little baby who cannot put his/her trust in Him? If your analogy is true, then you would have to say a baby is put to shame, and can never be saved because they don’t have the capability of putting their trust in Jesus!

So either a baby who can’t talk, can’t feed themselves, can confess Christ and be saved, or they cannot. From your analysis, if that baby can’t confess Christ, they cannot be saved. So then from your analogy, all babies are damed!

That's where infant baptism comes into play. "......baptism that now saves you also" 1 Peter 3:21

 

[biblelesson]

That's where infant baptism comes into play. "......baptism that now saves you also" 1 Peter 3:21

A baby cannot confess whether baptized or not. We have to consciously confess our sins! How do a baby benefit from baptism if that baby can’t consciously confess sin?

 

[trophy33]

God knits us together in the womb. They will be in the resurrection. We see people with no arms and no legs that never fully united with their body. Yet they will have arms and legs in the resurrection. None of us will have a physical body in Heaven. Our body returns to the ground and Pauls says sleeps.

Who will be in resurrection? The cells without a personality or some adult person God will artificially create from those dead cells?

 

[BurningBush84]

A baby cannot confess whether baptized or not. We have to consciously confess our sins! How do a baby benefit from baptism if that baby can’t consciously confess sin?

God knows babies cant confess. Some Christians believe that the Holy Spirit creates saving faith in babies when they are baptized . They believe the "washing" in Titus 3:5 is referring to Baptism. They believe baptism is a sacrament or means of grace.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You said “So that all who trust in Him shall never be put to shame; but rather by the grace of God we are born anew as new people in the Messiah, with a new life from God with God in the Messiah.”

I’m pointing out the above verse to show a contradiction. Little babies, toddlers, and children who cannot understand as adults do cannot trust in God.

That is your opinion, not a matter of fact or what Scripture teaches.

On the contrary, I believe there is sufficient information in Scripture to argue just the opposite: even infants can have faith in Christ. Faith in Christ is not a matter of intellect, knowledge, or human ability. Instead the Scriptures declare that faith comes from outside of ourselves as the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8), and the way God works, creates, and strengthens faith is by His word (Romans 10:17), and thus when an infant is baptized they have received the same "washing of water with the word" (Ephesians 5:26) which any other baptized person has received, and they are therefore born again by God, having received this new birth of "water and the Spirit" (John 3:3-5, Titus 3:5).

The baptized infant has faith in Christ. Because of the very power of God's word to create faith, for it is written that His word does not return to Him void, but accomplishes the very thing He has set it out to accomplish (Isaiah 55:11). When the infant is brought to the water, and the three-fold Name of God the Trinity is declared over them, they receive all the benefits which Baptism conveys; for Baptism is the power and work of God, not of men; it is a precious means of His grace.

So as the child grows in knowledge, grows and matures in their faith by discipleship, under the care of their parents and also of the Church, they will continually hear that same word preached to them. Their understanding, knowledge, and maturation in faith will grow--as it does for all of us. But the faith itself is God's gift, God's work, God's power and grace.

This is not a popular idea among modern Evangelicals, because it denies human works in the equation of salvation and teaches that we are saved entirely by grace alone through faith alone. But this is the teaching of Scripture, this is the very teaching upon which the Protestant Reformation itself rests.

They don’t understand what trusting in God means. You have shown where the scripture says all who trust in Him shall never be put to shame. So now, what about the little baby who cannot put his/her trust in Him? If your analogy is true, then you would have to say a baby is put to shame, and can never be saved because they don’t have the capability of putting their trust in Jesus!

See above. Of course infants can have faith, for it is God who gives faith. All who are Christ's have received faith from God, that is what makes them Christ's; but not all have the same measure of faith (Romans 12:3). That an infant lacks the reasoning faculties to comprehend theological propositions or even to comprehend language in the first several months at least is hardly an obstacle for God's power and grace. For St. John the Baptist himself jumped for joy for he was full of the Holy Spirit even within Elizabeth's womb (Luke 1:44).

Don't force God into your box simply because you are unable to understand His works and His ways. The Scriptures speak, and we listen and believe.

So either a baby who can’t talk, can’t feed themselves, can confess Christ and be saved, or they cannot. From your analysis, if that baby can’t confess Christ, they cannot be saved. So then from your analogy, all babies are damed!

Confession comes from faith, we grow in faith, and thus grow in our confession. That's why we sing our hymns, that's why we pray our prayers, that's why we confess our faith together in the Creed, that's why the Scriptures are read and we say, "Amen", that's why the sermon is preached and we listen and hear, it's why we come together to receive the body and blood of the Lord at His Table in, with, and under the bread and wine.

It is not my vocalization or articulation of a theological proposition that saves me. It is the finished and perfect work of Jesus Christ who suffered, died, and rose again that saves me. And the way God grants me the benefit of Christ's work is through the faith He gives me, and He gives me this faith by His word, the very Gospel itself is efficacious to make us believers.

We are not saved by our works, our efforts, our abilities, our strength--for the works of men are filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6), for it is written, "There is not one righteous, no, not even one" "There is no one who seeks after God" (Romans 3:10-12). Therefore here is the decree from the Law of our condemnation, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) and the precious Gospel of our salvation, "and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." (Romans 3:24).

So understand this: We are sinners saved by grace. Each and every one of us who have received God's gifts and calling by His gracious and loving invitation through the Gospel. We were born, not of our own will, but the will and grace of God, as heirs and children of God.

We do not put our faith in the works, will, or power of men--least of all ourselves--but rather in the grace and goodness of God in Jesus Christ our Lord.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

A baby cannot confess whether baptized or not. We have to consciously confess our sins! How do a baby benefit from baptism if that baby can’t consciously confess sin?

We as a congregation freely confess our sins before God, trusting in His word which says, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9) Because God has promised to work through the Office of the Keys to bind and loosen, to forgive sins (Matthew 16:19, John 20:22-23).

We are called to a life of repentance, repentance comes alongside faith, which is why St. Peter's call was "Repent and be baptized all of your in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, this is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call" (Acts 2:38-39), it is not a sequence of events, it is a two-fold call and invitation: repent and be baptized.

The call to repentance doesn't stop, we still sin, we still confess our sins (again, 1 John 1:9), for if we "say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8). Therefore confess your sins, not once, not twice, but all the time. Come boldly before the Throne of Grace (Hebrews 4:16), fall on your hands and knees before the God of all mercy who loves you, and who clothes you with the white-clean robes of Christ's righteousness, freely justifying you by His mercy. For He declares you forgiven, freely and fully pardoned, on Christ's account alone (Romans 5:18).

We raise our children in the Church, so they too will join us in confession, and they too hearing God's forgiveness in Absolution, are truly and certainly forgiven.

The Christian life doesn't stop the moment we formally convert or the first time we acknowledge our belief in the Christian religion. The Christian life is day-in and day-out, it is lived in each and every moment. It is a life given to us freely by God out of His love and kindness by His grace, through faith; it is a life lived bearing and carrying our own cross as disciples of Jesus in love and obedience for the good of our neighbor.

From our borning cry to our final breath, Jesus is Lord and Master over all of us.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[biblelesson]

God knows babies cant confess. Some Christians believe that the Holy Spirit creates saving faith in babies when they are baptized . They believe the "washing" in Titus 3:5 is referring to Baptism. They believe baptism is a sacrament or means of grace.

We can only go with what the Bible says. The Bible does not say the Holy Spirit creates saving grace. That’s taking away from salvation offered through Christ who shed His blood for an atonement for us, Romans 5:11 KJV. That’s the only saving Grace. Believe on Christ and be saved.

The Holy Spirit is given as a result of believing on Christ. We hear the word of truth, then we must believe, then and only then are we sealed with the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13 KJV. So this is the process to be brought into the family of God, through Jesus.

Titus 3:5 KJV, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;”

What Titus is saying is we are not saved by our work, but by God’s mercy Whose Son died and she’d His blood for us. It’s the blood that washes us clean, 1 John 1:7 KJV, that we be regenerated anew, and renewed by the Holy Spirit. But this process will never take place without “first” confessing Christ. Romans 10:10 KJV, with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

So with your analogy, where does that put babies?

 

[biblelesson]

We as a congregation freely confess our sins before God, trusting in His word which says, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9) Because God has promised to work through the Office of the Keys to bind and loosen, to forgive sins (Matthew 16:19, John 20:22-23).

We are called to a life of repentance, repentance comes alongside faith, which is why St. Peter's call was "Repent and be baptized all of your in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, this is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call" (Acts 2:38-39), it is not a sequence of events, it is a two-fold call and invitation: repent and be baptized.

The call to repentance doesn't stop, we still sin, we still confess our sins (again, 1 John 1:9), for if we "say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8). Therefore confess your sins, not once, not twice, but all the time. Come boldly before the Throne of Grace (Hebrews 4:16), fall on your hands and knees before the God of all mercy who loves you, and who clothes you with the white-clean robes of Christ's righteousness, freely justifying you by His mercy. For He declares you forgiven, freely and fully pardoned, on Christ's account alone (Romans 5:18).

We raise our children in the Church, so they too will join us in confession, and they too hearing God's forgiveness in Absolution, are truly and certainly forgiven.

The Christian life doesn't stop the moment we formally convert or the first time we acknowledge our belief in the Christian religion. The Christian life is day-in and day-out, it is lived in each and every moment. It is a life given to us freely by God out of His love and kindness by His grace, through faith; it is a life lived bearing and carrying our own cross as disciples of Jesus in love and obedience for the good of our neighbor.

From our borning cry to our final breath, Jesus is Lord and Master over all of us.

-CryptoLutheran

The question was about babies who die but was not baptized. Some say that baby will not receive salvation.

So what about that baby who cannot confess Jesus. Can they still be saved, that was the issue? Some say they have to be baptized, which is not scriptural.

 

[BurningBush84]

The question was about babies who die but was not baptized. Some say that baby will not receive salvation.

So what about that baby who cannot confess Jesus. Can they still be saved, that was the issue? Some say they have to be baptized, which is not scriptural.

Not scriptural ?? "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them". ..."Peter answered them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far away, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

"Then he and everyone in his household were immediately baptized." Acts 16:33

 

[ViaCrucis]

The question was about babies who die but was not baptized. Some say that baby will not receive salvation.

So what about that baby who cannot confess Jesus. Can they still be saved, that was the issue? Some say they have to be baptized, which is not scriptural.

And that's why I said we have to simply trust in God. Anyone who claims to know what happens to babies who die without faith in Christ is making things up. There are myriad things we don't know because God hasn't told us.

What happens to, for example, a Buddhist monk living isolated on a mountain in India in the first century, far removed from the events of the Gospel story, someone who simply never heard the Gospel and indeed would have been physically unable to. What about them?

Does God damn a person simply because of some cosmic lottery of being born in the wrong time and/or place? Scripture says that it is God's will that everyone be saved, and that Christ came and died for everyone.

So what about all these people of different circumstances who have not, or did not, or couldn't have heard the Gospel. Whether we are talking unbaptized infants or elderly Buddhist monks, what about them?

We don't know, so we shouldn't pretend like we know what happens. We know only what God has seen fit to tell us, we do not know what He has not told us. And so we have to simply trust in Him.

There will be none in heaven because they were worthy of it, not even an infant; but rather there will be a great multitude there because God is a good, faithful, just, and merciful God--the One who so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son.

God's goodness, not ours, is what brings us through Judgment to life.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Some say that baby will not receive salvation.

Something I didn't touch on in my last post:

Who says that?

Can you name a single church/denomination that actually says that?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BurningBush84]

" But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows". Luke 12:48

" No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

 

[ViaCrucis]

We all are born into sin, but to be punished for sin we must “commit a sin.” A child does not commit sin. The requirements to be forgiven of sin a child does not posses! A child cannot be under the law of sin because to sin is the transgression of the law. A child cannot transgress the law. So the law does not apply, and where there is no law, there is no transgression, Romans 4:15.

The Gospel declares that Christ died for all men. Our forgiveness was attained and won for us on the cross. Not by our doing anything. The only thing an infant needs to be in order to be forgiven is to be a sinner. Which they are.

Sinful acts arise from the fact that we are, ourselves, actually sinful.

Have you also not considered that, according to your theological opinion here, that deeply dire and disturbing moral implications? The implication of what you're saying is that the best way to ensure that our children will be in heaven is that they die before they are "old enough". That makes abortion and infanticide the most merciful thing anyone could ever do for their child.

And any counter-argument against that, such as that God says murder is wrong and therefore God will condemn those who murder infants doesn't really matter. Because if I knew that by allowing my child to grow up there was a chance they could go to hell, but if they died while young enough they were guaranteed a free ticket to paradise, then even if I were to somehow condemn myself to hell by my atrocious act of murdering a child at least that child would be with Jesus. Wouldn't a loving parent willingly throw away their chance of eternal happiness if it meant securing eternal security for their child?

I realize this is a deeply uncomfortable and disturbing topic. But this is the real and serious moral and theological consequences of what you are talking about.

Can you offer an argument to demonstrate that I'd be wrong here? How can you believe an infant is guaranteed heaven by virtue of their infancy and not have the moral implications I've mentioned above?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[biblelesson]

Not scriptural ?? "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them". ..."Peter answered them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far away, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

"Then he and everyone in his household were immediately baptized." Acts 16:33

There cannot be forgiveness without confession of sins. You know those scriptures. So, how can a baby confess sins?

 

[biblelesson]

The Gospel declares that Christ died for all men. Our forgiveness was attained and won for us on the cross. Not by our doing anything. The only thing an infant needs to be in order to be forgiven is to be a sinner. Which they are.

Sinful acts arise from the fact that we are, ourselves, actually sinful.

Have you also not considered that, according to your theological opinion here, that deeply dire and disturbing moral implications? The implication of what you're saying is that the best way to ensure that our children will be in heaven is that they die before they are "old enough". That makes abortion and infanticide the most merciful thing anyone could ever do for their child.

And any counter-argument against that, such as that God says murder is wrong and therefore God will condemn those who murder infants doesn't really matter. Because if I knew that by allowing my child to grow up there was a chance they could go to hell, but if they died while young enough they were guaranteed a free ticket to paradise, then even if I were to somehow condemn myself to hell by my atrocious act of murdering a child at least that child would be with Jesus. Wouldn't a loving parent willingly throw away their chance of eternal happiness if it meant securing eternal security for their child?

I realize this is a deeply uncomfortable and disturbing topic. But this is the real and serious moral and theological consequences of what you are talking about.

Can you offer an argument to demonstrate that I'd be wrong here? How can you believe an infant is guaranteed heaven by virtue of their infancy and not have the moral implications I've mentioned above?

-CryptoLutheran

Our understanding of salvation is based on the gospel message. I have provided those scriptures!

Sinners must confess! No one can be saved without confession, that’s scriptural.