You can make up what you like Link. I just think you have not got a clue what word of faith is all about.
What am I making up?
Who is disagreeing that there is one God? Don't insinuate that anyone is please, we all believe in one God.
Let's review our conversation. I listed as a 'word of fluff' teaching the idea that God lost rights to the earth at the fall, and had to go through a man to access the earth. You referred to a verse about Satan being the 'god of this world.' I showed you where Paul that though there be THAT ARE CALLED gods, we know that there is but one God. If the world treats Satan like a 'god', that doesn't mean he has power over the earth like God does. My point is very valid in context.
I did my thesis on Irenaeus (that is the correct spelling of his name by the way), and have read Against Heresies in Greek and in English. Not sure why you are mentioning him in this context - I don't believe in Gnosticism, do you?
No, I mentioned him just to make the point that the verse you chose could be translated differently, based on the interpretation of a Greek speaker less than 2 centuries removed from the language in the passage. I gave a little background so you or the readers would know who he was.
You have to reach back 1800 years to find one person who believes that, and as you know so much about Irenaeus, you presumably know that he was a universalist who believed that everyone would be saved. He also believed if what the church said contradicted Scripture, you should go with the church. He also told people that Judas was a Gnostic, and many of his ideas about Gnosticism were fallacies.
I mentioned Irenaeus to show that the verse you suggested was ambiguous. I did not say that I agreed with everything Irenaeus said or did. All I know of his writings were what I read in Eusebius many years ago. I know that Origen wrote on universalism. Where did Irenaeus write on this topic?
Irenaeus interpertation of the 'god of this world' passage is not inconsistent with the following passage, btw.
Romans 9:22 "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"
So your case is built on the ideas of someone who lived 1800 years ago and had a whole host of strange ideas. Ah well, each to their own. I prefer to use the Bible personally.
You say my case is built on it? I quoted scripture that shows that there is one God. If the god of Ekron is Beelzebub, that doesn't mean Beelzebub is a real god.
You mean that when the devil inspires someone to rape someone, God is behind it. Is that what you mean? That the devil is God's employee?
James says every man is tempted when he is drawn away
of his own lusts and enticed. He cannot say he is tempted of God. James doesn't blame it on the devil. Satan can influence and tempt, but men chose to sin.
It was your point. Not mine.
You are fluffing about and getting your knickers in a twist about people saying that Adam made a cow move when you believe that God is sending the devil off to rape and kill and destroy and steal.
I find your comment here to be dishonest. I did not say that God sent the devil off the rape people. That was your point. God does sometimes use even evil people or spirits to accomplish His will. I did not say that God is behind every sin like this.
You have a messed up picture of God. God is a good God, He is our Father. He is the Father of lights and only good gifts come from Him!
The verse says that every good and perfect gift comes from God. It does not say that the only gifts that come from God are 'good'. Certainly not every thing that God has given is 'good' from a carnal perspective of what is good. Peter wrote to Christians who suffered according to the will of God. All things work together for good to them that love God who are called according to His purpose. But the carnal man does not consider suffering to be 'good.'
Does God only give the stuff that seems 'good' to us: wealth, health, riches, etc.?
Lamentations 3:38
37Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?
38Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
The KJV uses 'evil.' Other translations say things like 'ill' or calamity. the idea is not moral evil. In the Isaiah verse, 'evil' is contrasted with 'peace'. There are plenty of verses about God bringing such things on the disobedient.
Maybe you don't have a problem with that concept, but I know a lot of 'Rhema' people do. Based on one of the Kenneth Hagin booklets, he had a problem with this idea, too. He argued that since ONE of the Hebrew words COULD mean 'allow' instead of 'cause' that God just allowed this bad stuff to happen. But he didn't bother to lead us through a Bible study of all the verses on the issue. (I don't know if this was his view on his life, but it was when he wrote the booklet or when it was written from his sermon.)
Here, we see an example of God 'mediately' bringing disaster on the wicked, but sending someone who would kill people.
Ezekiel 26
7 "For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you. 9 He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons. 10 His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the warhorses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through.
(NIV)
That is why after the devil attacked and stole from Job, God restored the fortunes of Job. That is what God is like. Job wasn't part of the New Testament as you can tell from the order your Bible is in.
He still had a redeemer, and he suffered calamity.
Why don't you quote verses in context? The context of this verse, 1 Peter 4.19 starts in verse 12 where Peter is talking about the persecution of the church. He tells people that it is great to be persecuted for being a Christian - but not for being sinful and selfish.
I assume some familiarity with contexts of scripture. We both know the context of the passage. My point is showing that God can use suffering to accomplish His will, not just the 'good' stuff from a human perspective.
Just because we know the truth that we are redeemed from sin, sickness and poverty doesn't mean we ignore the truth that there is persecution in this world for those who love the Lord and follow Him.
There are other forms of suffering that Christians may have to endure. Paul listed a few others besides persecution in his list in Romans 8.
Romans 8
35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
(NIV)
The verse is Exodus 4.11 in case you didn't know. I have considered it. God is not saying "I make people blind".
Certain translators certainly take that angle.
Come on - Jesus didn't go around blinding people. He healed the blind.
Jesus went around doing good and healing all those who were oppressed of the Devil.
We also read of Israel's enemies,
II Kings 6:18
And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.
He told us if we believe in Him we can do the works He did.
Amen.
I don't know why you doubt that God is good and that He sent His Son to redeem you from sin, sickness and poverty. Why is that?
God is good. And all things work together for good to them that love Him and are called according to His purposes. That may involve some suffering. God also executes judgment on the wicked.
God being good doesn't mean that God wants everyone to wear a lot of gold and diamond bling and drive a Ferrari either.
As for the idea of God making believers sick, consider this passage:
29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30For this cause many are
weak and sickly among you, and many
sleep.
31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not
be judged.
32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should
not be condemned with the world.
33Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
34And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.
My reference to gossip is about the paucity of your references and links to what you are claiming. How can I address what you are saying some people are saying when it is just your word. You could claim you once watched a faith teacher torture kittens, but without proof.
Then why didn't you just say, "Amen, I don't believe that word of fluff" instead of acting like you wanted to defend my list.
Here is another teaching that was quite common in WOF circles in the 1990's-- that believers should not pray for something more than once. (Forget the parable of the unjust judge.) Have you ever heard anyone say that you shouldn't pray 'Thy will be done'-- a phrase in the Lord's prayer?
I bet you a can of coke the videos you watched were second-hand, i.e. someone else had cut and pasted them.
I didn't know WOFers gambled. I'd prefer a can of juice. I try to stay away from the acids in Coke.
I teach my people to enjoy where they are as they are renewing their mind and moving into prosperity and health as promised by 3 John 2.
Just out of curiosity, have you ever taught on that passage I quoted earlier, that godliness with contentment is great gain, and that they who want to be rich fall into a snare and a trap and many, seeking to be rich, have departed from the faith, having pierced themselves through with many griefs?
Good call. So how much money do you think is wrong then? Where is your cut off?
It wouldn't be right to put a dollar (or pound) figure on something like this. Considering people can actually live on a dollar a day in some countries, it wouldn't make sense to even try to do such a thing. We are all to be good stewards. What we do know from the Bible is that Christians are to learn to be content with what they have and that they are not to desire to be rich in worldly goods.
And our teaching should not encourage people to be greedy. If someone's teaching causes other people to desire to be rich, and attracts men with greedy hearts, there is a problem.
Or enjoy life. It's in the verses you quoted just after you stopped quoting. I wonder why that was. You should read the whole counsel of God!
I don't know what verse you are referring to. But of course we are to enjoy God's blessings with thanksgiving.
Pedantry! Where did the computer come from? Growing on a tree in your garden was it?
I'm a grad student, so it came from state funds or a donation.
If the faith people are preaching it, I know about it. You are clearly getting some really fringe stuff and seizing on it. As I said before, that is just ridiculous. It shows you are trying to reject the movement, but cannot refute its core principles: we are redeemed, we are righteous, we are more than conquerors, our words have power.
I know some people who come out of rhema who are balanced. I've also knew one guy fresh out who just quoted Kenneth Hagin all the time as the authority for just about everything he said, but he grew out of that. But there is a lot of these fringe teachings coming out of very famous WOF guys all the time, like the creation examples I mentioned. Do you think Christian should just ignore these things?
There is also the problem of the underlying implication that Christians should desire to be rich, a thread that runs through several preachers methods. I don't consider that to be a peripherial issue.
And the doctrine of the atonement and the finished work on the cross is a very core issue of the Christian faith.
Like the stuff Irenaeus preached about God, like his view of Adam and Eve. Did you know he preached that Christ was an old man when he was nailed to the cross? That is off the wall not grounded in the Word, wouldn't you say.
Like I said, I don't endorse everything Irenaeus taught. I had heard of this. At least the tradition he repeated here does not go against scripture, like teaching people to desire to be rich does. The Bible doesn't say how old Christ was at His death. He started traveling around preaching at about 30 years old. We know that. The thirty-three and a half figure presumably comes from assuming the fewest number of years possible based on the feasts mentioned in the Gospels.
If Herod died at 4 BC, and the temple really were destroyed right at 70 AD, the thirty-three and a half figure may be hard to arrive at, especially since Herod decreed that children two years old and under were to die. Assuming Christ was two at that decree, and the other numbers are right, that would put his age at at least 37. But we don't know that the temple was destroyed right at 70 AD.
Like I said, you have third or probably fourth or fifth hand information about a WoF preacher and you thought rather than engage with Scriptures you would quote something about a cow. Good for you!
Why don't you ask me and wait for a response instead of starting with your 'probably's. I heard these things on videos of sermons.
And why would you launch a debate to defend WOF over my post. Why not just agree with me and move on. I suspect you are a bit defensive about the topic.
If a cessationist says there are Charismatics who believe crazy things, and lists some teachings that contradict scripture, I wouldn't try to defend their teachings.
Just don't expect anyone to be swayed into your the devil does what God wants idea because of it.
The devil has limits on what He is allowed to do. The Bible does not teach that God lost His rights to the earth at the fall.
Ah yes, the power of the tongue. I'm not to curse my brother..or my enemy for that matter, but to call out the gold in his life. Anyone can find dirt in a gold mine. 
