Dropping and Rolling on the Floor?

[Aldebaran]

Sorry! My response was meant for the person who claimed that holy spirit is often accompanied by a demon being exposed in order for someone present to cast it out. Your post I understood perfectly. Will be more careful in posting next time.

Ah, no problem!

 

[TheDag]

To be honest, I see no other way to dismiss it.

Faking? How can you fake becoming as white as a ghost and breaking out in sweat and the producing an unnatural male voice? Do the voodoo people fake what they do? Doesn't seem like it to me. But if you prefer to think it was faked that is your right to an opinion.

Identical?

Peter acted identical to the people in the King Kong film excerpt that he added the furiously rolling around on the ground?

Please show me where Peter became drenched in sweat, began suddenly trembling, dropped to the ground, started rolling on the floor, making garbled sounds, showed only the white of his eyes, and acted like those people in the King Kong film.

BTW
It isn't only one person. They began behaving that way in church. Go on the internet and you can see them doing the same things during their meetings. What would a psychiatrist say about that behavior? Better yet, what would Jesus say?

What would a psychiarist say? Well plenty of them would say all religion is evil and wrong so you can listen tto them if you like.

You have dismissed all situations based on this example. However when most people are "slain in the spirit" they simply go to the floor and are still just as Peter would have been in a trance. Ask in most churches if going into a trance is acceptable and they will say no! As I have been saying you are using one example and judging all by that one example without knowing what you are talking about for the majority of situations.

As for turning white, deep voice and breaking out in sweat then yes all that can be faked. I never said it was and it is dishonest of you to claim I did. I also did not claim that what Peter did was the same as what your aunt did. You need to spend more time reading and taking in what is said before forming your response. I think you saw one part and started deciding what you were going to put in your response that you didn't read what I wrote properly.

Interesting that you did not respond to the other part of the post. It was short and you decided to focus on one part of it. So do you claim reading the bible is bad because some people who are not christian read the bible? If not then you should not use the same argument to dismiss this. You need something with substance.

So your judgement is:

1. The voodoo-like comportment was really God's holy spirit exposing a demon

2. Inability to detect it as Holy Spirit exposing a demon is due to lack of discernment

3. Lack of discernment means that the person lacking it hasn't been delivered

3. Criticism of such behavior comes close to blasphemy against the holy spirit?

Very interesting conclusions!

once again in your eagerness to respond we see that you are not reading what is actually written. The poster specifically said it was a possibility but not a statement of fact as to what happened.

 

[TheDag]

Look at what you wrote dear friend.

i know what I wrote. You inability to comprehend what you were claiming is not my problem. You are the one who claimed that any praying in public was wrong and when I pointed out Jesus did you then came up with a disclaimer after the fact saying he can do what he wants. Well yes he could but if we read scripture then we see that is not the case. I also pointed out the disciples prayed in public and were not rebuked by Jesus yet apparently it is wrong for us to do so. Add to that the fact that in Matthew 26 jesus commands three of the disciples to pray which was in public and together. So not in private.

We can look at examples of prayer Jesus praised. "Have mercy on me a sinner". While in a parable Jesus gives it as an example of a good way to pray. Seems either your understanding is wrong or Jesus didn't know what he was talking about. i know which one I go with. As you read the passage about praying in private in context of the entire chapter you see it is clearly talking about motivations behind ones actions.
We are also told to pray without ceasing. Does that mean we can never ever leave our house? If so then once again then people like Paul & Peter and many others were all sinning by going and spreading the gospel. It would also make carrying out the great commission impossible.

Whatever denomination this happens in it is not, as far as i am concerned, the Holy Spirit at work. Look at Our Lords works and teachings and you will understand this.

Yet look at all the stuff you happily do as a believer that Jesus never did. Not everything in scripture is mentioned in the gospels. So are they wrong as well and worthy of the same condemnation? Or is that different because you have a pre-formed opinion which you are happy to have reinforced? See I once upon a time condemned all this kind of stuff as wrong as well.

 

[TheDag]

Where do the disciples pray in public?

matthew 26 is not in their room with a closed door as per the claim I was responding to demands it be. As such it is in public by their definition.

Edit: Sorry they did not pray on that occasion but were commanded by Jesus to pray. If it is wrong then Jesus sinned by encouraging the disciples to sin.

 

[Radrook]

What would a psychiarist say? Well plenty of them would say all religion is evil and wrong so you can listen tto them if you like.

You have dismissed all situations based on this example. However when most people are "slain in the spirit" they simply go to the floor and are still just as Peter would have been in a trance. Ask in most churches if going into a trance is acceptable and they will say no! As I have been saying you are using one example and judging all by that one example without knowing what you are talking about for the majority of situations.

As for turning white, deep voice and breaking out in sweat then yes all that can be faked. I never said it was and it is dishonest of you to claim I did. I also did not claim that what Peter did was the same as what your aunt did. You need to spend more time reading and taking in what is said before forming your response. I think you saw one part and started deciding what you were going to put in your response that you didn't read what I wrote properly.

Interesting that you did not respond to the other part of the post. It was short and you decided to focus on one part of it. So do you claim reading the bible is bad because some people who are not christian read the bible? If not then you should not use the same argument to dismiss this. You need something with substance.


once again in your eagerness to respond we see that you are not reading what is actually written. The poster specifically said it was a possibility but not a statement of fact as to what happened.

 

[prodromos]

matthew 26 is not in their room with a closed door as per the claim I was responding to demands it be. As such it is in public by their definition.

Edit: Sorry they did not pray on that occasion but were commanded by Jesus to pray. If it is wrong then Jesus sinned by encouraging the disciples to sin.

You are going to have to be more specific. I'm afraid I can't find what you are referring to in Matt 26.

 

[Radrook]

Why would God put people in trances over and over during church meetings? In Peter's case its purpose was to correct his erroneous self-righteous attitude towards the gentiles. In Paul's case he was being taught a crucial lesson in order for him to become an Apostle. In John's case he was receiving a vision of the end of the World. None of these include anyone dropping to the ground and rolling and uttering unintelligible noises. In any case, if I offended you I apologize. I guess we just see things differently.

 

[TheDag]

Why would God put people in trances over and over during church meetings? In Peter's case its purpose was to correct his erroneous self-righteous attitude towards the gentiles. In Paul's case he was being taught a crucial lesson in order for him to become an Apostle. In John's case he was receiving a vision of the end of the World. None of these include anyone dropping to the ground and rolling and uttering unintelligible noises. In any case, if I offended you I apologize. I guess we just see things differently.

The only real offensive thing is you insist that rolling and uttering unintelligible noises has to be part of it when I have clearly stated that is not the case. In other words you just don't want to listen.

 

[TheDag]

You are going to have to be more specific. I'm afraid I can't find what you are referring to in Matt 26.

Jesus instructing the disciples to pray is not clear enough? Oh well verse 41 then.

 

[Radrook]

The only real offensive thing is you insist that rolling and uttering unintelligible noises has to be part of it when I have clearly stated that is not the case. In other words you just don't want to listen.

I am listening but I just can't see the relevance of one to the other.
I'm referring to places and occurrences when it is part of it. You are referring to occurrences and places when it isn't. Obviously you feel that I included places and occasions where it never happens when I am clearly referring to places and occasions where and when it does.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

You can see in the below video how the speakers manipulate the crowd by raising their voices and jumping around. They know exactly how to whip the crowd into a frenzy. If this is the same thing that the OP is referring to, then there is no Biblical evidence or prescription for it.

 

[DamianWarS]

Pentecostals have a habit of explaining and validating the HS through unbridled experience which go beyond scripture and gets out of control. But at the core of pentecostalism is firmly support biblical doctrine and it should not be said that because there is abuse that it cannot be trusted.

I am a pentecostal but I firmly ground myself in scripture and don't allow experience to reveal things that are not biblical. Rolling on the ground or being slain in the spirit are not biblical manifestations of the HS but tongues and prophecy, in the sense of how the bible reveals them to be, are.

Being baptized in the spirit is being submissive to the HS and is not a license to loose control. Scripture tells us that the HS is in control and it's according to his will but this doesn't mean that any and all things can be called 'of the Spirit' but rather we too should be in control.

This comes down to how we measure what is of the spirit or not which then brings out does the HS still operate as in the apostolic age? I believe the HS operates today as is revealed in scripture and scripture does not tell us otherwise.

 

[prodromos]

Jesus instructing the disciples to pray is not clear enough? Oh well verse 41 then.

You've got to be kidding me?
Late at night, alone in a secluded place isn't remotely praying in public. If that is all you have then you don't have anything.

 

[TheDag]

You've got to be kidding me?
Late at night, alone in a secluded place isn't remotely praying in public. If that is all you have then you don't have anything.

You need to read before you respond. The person I was responding to made it very clear that you had to pray at home behind a closed door with nobody else present. This example does not fit their claim and they are therefore wrong. You need to remember I was responding to their claim. That is the context in which my posts must be read. Clearly this example does not meet the criteria set out by the other poster. Although it is still a public place as a public place is a place where basically anyone can go.

 

[TheDag]

I am listening but I just can't see the relevance of one to the other.
I'm referring to places and occurrences when it is part of it. You are referring to occurrences and places when it isn't. Obviously you feel that I included places and occasions where it never happens when I am clearly referring to places and occasions where and when it does.

You dismissed both based on the experience of one. You have condemned all based on the actions of some people.

 

[Radrook]

You dismissed both based on the experience of one. You have condemned all based on the actions of some people.

If I did that then I would be committing the fallacy of hasty generalization based on scanty and unrepresentative evidence. Please note that I clearly explained that as a member of the Pentecostal Church at one time as a child I had never observed any similar behavior in the two churches I attended. In fact, apart from my Aunt and her daughter, I have never seen any other Pentecostal claiming to be Jesus or any other biblical personage. However, in the two churches I attended I did see the rolling and making sounds and on the Internet and TV I still see these things happening.

Please note that I cannot say I agree with any rolling and making unintelligible sounds or of being struck dead by holy spirit as biblically justifiable because the scriptural support provided doesn't convince me that it is justified. So I guess we simply disagree on that point.

Peace!

 

[prodromos]

You need to read before you respond. The person I was responding to made it very clear that you had to pray at home behind a closed door with nobody else present.

I thought he posted that verse in reference to not making a public show of your prayer. I don't see anywhere where he claimed that prayer could only be you alone with God behind a locked door.

This example does not fit their claim and they are therefore wrong. You need to remember I was responding to their claim. That is the context in which my posts must be read. Clearly this example does not meet the criteria set out by the other poster. Although it is still a public place as a public place is a place where basically anyone can go.

From where I'm looking it seems that you have misunderstood his argument.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Do we understand the spirit of the law here? The point of not praying in public was regarding doing with the intention of being seen, and being seen as righteous. It is possible to pray in public without being a Pharisee. On top of that, church gathering are places where prayer, singing, and reading of scripture happen. How is that not public?

 

[TheDag]

I thought he posted that verse in reference to not making a public show of your prayer. I don't see anywhere where he claimed that prayer could only be you alone with God behind a locked door.

From where I'm looking it seems that you have misunderstood his argument.

guess thats the problem with just quoting a passage. The poster never gave any indication that I had misunderstood. Easily enough done if that was the case. Instead they continued to insist praying in public is wrong. Although you could say it has nothing to do with the behaviour as that verse is talking about prayer.

In any case still doesn't change the fact that Jesus prayed in public and I thought we were supposed to follow his example.

 

[prodromos]

guess thats the problem with just quoting a passage. The poster never gave any indication that I had misunderstood. Easily enough done if that was the case. Instead they continued to insist praying in public is wrong. Although you could say it has nothing to do with the behaviour as that verse is talking about prayer.

In any case still doesn't change the fact that Jesus prayed in public and I thought we were supposed to follow his example.

I think you still need to clearly define what you mean by "praying in public".