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The references to wine being healthy keep coming up but as I've already posted; the same health advantages can be gotten by drinking grape juice - depending on your source the health advantages of grape juice are either...
1)nearly the same
2) exactly the same
3) better than wine
Scripture has been provided on both sides - evidence for drinking wine and evidence against drinking strong drink have both been presented.
So if the health issue is now a mute point - what is the profit in drinking or condoning wine drinking?
There is nothing to gain by drinking it that can't be gotten in a non-alcoholic way.
There is nothing to gain and no upside.
Even if you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Bible condones alcoholic wine drinking and it's your God given right and liberty - What's the upside?
It can't be health - we've already proven that so what's left?
I will never put my stamp of approval on consumption of alchohol - it benefits no one and has the potential to damage a lot of people.
If I condone wine drinking the best case scenario is somone takes my advice and gets a slight increase in their health (which they can get in a safer way) - the worst case scenario is they abuse alcohol and suffer a host of consequences.
No upside - huge downside - easy decision for me.
Well....... I grew up Roman Catholic..... every church dinner, every school party, every church dance ..... alcohol was served.
I also spent a lot of time living in Rome.... and we, even as kids, had wine with dinner every night. The high school I went to in Rome had a bar on campus!
My family was really tight with the parish priests here in CA... the priests came to dinner every holiday and at least once a month.. The monsignor had double scotch & sodas before dinner, wine with dinner and a nice Corvassier after dinner.... all accompanied by a nice stogie...! (Needless to say, I drove him home on many occasion )
Because it was so prevalent.... and because there were no evil connotations to alcohol... very few developed drinking problems in our circle of friends and family (well, except for that monsignor!!!!). IOW, it wasn't "forbidden fruit" so no one had to sneak to drink it..
that is, until........................
I left the RC and went to AOGWhat a hoot!
Anyone serving at the church had to sign a paper swearing that you would not have a drop of alcohol touch your lips.... (oh, but they had the fattest people in town at that church )
The first wedding my daughter and I went to at the AOG was so bland.... my daughter was about 11 yrs old then and she said "Mom, where's the dancing? Where's the champagne toast?"
If people were as concerned about other, more important things, the world would be a better place! In my never to be humble opinion!
If people were as concerned about other, more important things, the world would be a better place!
Good post.
Coffee is a sin though, isn't it
The references to wine being healthy keep coming up but as I've already posted; the same health advantages can be gotten by drinking grape juice - depending on your source the health advantages of grape juice are either...
Hi
Can I post a fellowship post?
Paul told Timothy to take a little wine because of his stomach illnesses because the alcohol acts to purify the dirty drinking water that Timothy had where he was living. If you go to an African country today and have a little wine you will save yourself stomach upsets from the dirty water. grape juice is actually the opposite, if you have only grape juice or have too much grape juice you will get a stomach illness. Did you know there is actually alcohol in your blood anyway, ethanol, to purify it from germs?
Hi
Can I post a fellowship post?
Paul told Timothy to take a little wine because of his stomach illnesses because the alcohol acts to purify the dirty drinking water that Timothy had where he was living. If you go to an African country today and have a little wine you will save yourself stomach upsets from the dirty water. grape juice is actually the opposite, if you have only grape juice or have too much grape juice you will get a stomach illness. Did you know there is actually alcohol in your blood anyway, ethanol, to purify it from germs?
Actually scripture says:I dont believe that the wine Jesus made by miracle was fermented. We dont have scripture and verse that states that it was or wasnt fermented.This is only my opinion based on what I believe the Word teaches concerning alcohol in general.
This is true... and the taste is directly affected by the fermentation process, or lack thereof. The aging process of the alcohol is what gives a good wine its character.I believe that these men were referring to the taste of the wine, not its alcoholic content. After all it was supernatural wine! There would be none like it on Earth.
Wine is and always has been judged by its taste.
Again, they were intoxicated from the first wine...If they were referring to the intoxication they experienced it was due to the anointing on the wine.
They were mabye experiencing the same sensations those on the day of Pentecost did when Peter said, "These are not drunk as ye suppose.....".
Actually, there are NO verses that forbid drinking in moderation, but many that forbid drunkenness... just as there are no scriptures that forbid eating, but many that forbid gluttony.... and no scriptures that forbid sex, but many that forbid adultery and fornication.Because of these reasonable possibilities I personally couldnt use this passage of scripture to justify my drinking of alcohol, escpecially with the 50 plus verses that directly forbid it.
The word there in verse 26 for "strong drink" is "shekar"-- literally "liquor". (I pasted it so that you can click on the words and see the lexicon/definitions yourself.)[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Deuteronomy 14 Read This Chapter[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:22 "You shall surely tithe all the produce from what you sow, which comes out of the field every year. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:23 "You shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God, at the place where * He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and your flock, so that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always *. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:24 "If the distance is so great for you that you are not able to bring the tithe, since the place where * the LORD your God chooses to set His name is too far away from you when the LORD your God blesses you, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:25 then you shall exchange it for money, and bind the money in your hand and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]14:26 "You may spend the money for whatever * your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever * your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household. [/FONT]
Actually the passage you are almost quoting here is to "work out (not walk out) your salvation with fear and trembling". The word "out" there is literally "outward". In other words, let the work of Christ that is in you come outward to the surface so that it is seen by those around. I address this only because so many have a mindset of just "working it out" on their own, instead of actually having the Word as the anchor working in their life.My opinion or anyone elses shouldnt hinder someone of a different opinion. We all must walk out our own salvation with fear & trembling.
After about page 4, the arguements here started going in circles with no one actually going into the scriptures a lot.
I wanted to bring up a couple of passages here that are extremely important to this debate and point out a couple of things. I used PastorJ's post, simply because it was the most convenient one for part of it.Actually scripture says:
7 Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim. 8 Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet." They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside10 and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."
Scripture is quite clear that the wine they were drinking was a wine that caused people to "have too much to drink". Other translations actually say when the guests are "drunk". The wine they drank before was alcoholic. The master of the feast compared the wine Jesus made to a "choice wine" that should have been served first while the people's palate could still appreciate it. Anyone who knows wine, fully understands this statement as the more one drinks the more difficult it is to taste the nuances of a fine wine.
This is true... and the taste is directly affected by the fermentation process, or lack thereof. The aging process of the alcohol is what gives a good wine its character.
Again, they were intoxicated from the first wine...
Go back to what the scriptures actually say happened and not a supposition based on personal feelings.Actually, there are NO verses that forbid drinking in moderation, but many that forbid drunkenness... just as there are no scriptures that forbid eating, but many that forbid gluttony.... and no scriptures that forbid sex, but many that forbid adultery and fornication.
Once again, please stick with what scripture actually teaches.
Now to give a different scripture here that just blows all of the arguements about scripture forbidding drinking alcohol out of the water completely.
The word there in verse 26 for "strong drink" is "shekar"-- literally "liquor". (I pasted it so that you can click on the words and see the lexicon/definitions yourself.)
The people of Israel were commanded by God to take their tithes and use it for specific things, one of which was buying "wine or strong drink" to eat and drink in the presence of God. Basically, the Israelites were to take their tithes and use them to celebrate the Feasts of Israel (Passover, Pentecost/Shavuot, Tabernacles, etc) in Jerusalem.
So.. if God says it is ok to use your tithes to buy liquor and celebrate and drink it in His presence, who are we to tell Him that what He says to do is a sin?
Actually the passage you are almost quoting here is to "work out (not walk out) your salvation with fear and trembling". The word "out" there is literally "outward". In other words, let the work of Christ that is in you come outward to the surface so that it is seen by those around. I address this only because so many have a mindset of just "working it out" on their own, instead of actually having the Word as the anchor working in their life.
I believe that the Old testament stated that those who could not bring their tithes to the city that God had designated could sell the tithe and get money and then buy strong drink or whatever their hearts desired.All alcoholic beverages used in our culture fall under the biblical classification of STRONG DRINK
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