Drinking alcohol

[lyonguard]

A good point was brought up in another post - drinking wine. My husband and I also enjoy a glass of wine every now and then. We only drink it at home because it could cause others to stumble and ruin our witness to the lost.

Once, Kenneth Hagin said that drinking was a geographical sin. Here in the US, it is considered sinful to drink alcohol, but in other countries, coffee is sinful.

Other friends of mine believe alcohol of any kind is sinful. I believe that getting drunk is wrong but that having one drink, which is my limit, is not a sin.

My question is two-fold. First, how do you feel about drinking overall, and second, if you believe it is ok, do you believe it covers all alcohol or just wine?

 

[georgie2319]

A good point was brought up in another post - drinking wine. My husband and I also enjoy a glass of wine every now and then. We only drink it at home because it could cause others to stumble and ruin our witness to the lost.

Once, Kenneth Hagin said that drinking was a geographical sin. Here in the US, it is considered sinful to drink alcohol, but in other countries, coffee is sinful.

Other friends of mine believe alcohol of any kind is sinful. I believe that getting drunk is wrong but that having one drink, which is my limit, is not a sin.

My question is two-fold. First, how do you feel about drinking overall, and second, if you believe it is ok, do you believe it covers all alcohol or just wine?

Hi i think having one is ok. If you are drinking to the point that it is wrecking your body then i believe it is a sin as i dont think we are to be destroying the body that we are lending from god while we are living on the earth. But to drink in moderation and for the right reason not just to drink ur problems away. then its ok.

 

[pdudgeon]

I'm with you. I prefer wine and drink at home only when i know i won't be going out.
I do so for medicinal purposes as i have a medically proven chronic allergic condition that my (now former) doctor refused to treat or recognize, prefering instead to believe that i might be requesting medication for meth addiction.

the wine, combined with medications that i now get OTC as needed, helps me to break the cough cycle which makes life more bearable for those around me. At least i don't sound or look like i'm on the verge of dying all the time.

 

[iafic]

Well, my 2 cents...I won't touch any alcohol! None whatsoever at any time. I feel that it is a very touchy subject as far as witnessing. We do represent Christ. And I am asked all the time whether I drink or not, I always said, no, never have, never will. My witness is more important to me than a drinking enjoyment. BUT this is something that fits in with how I minister, how God has led my life to be my biggest witness.

As far as if it's a sin to drink wine...heavens no...the Bible talks about wine being good for the stomach. I don't look down on or even think twice of Christians having a drink. it's great that the above posters concider their witness and drink at home...I see nothing wrong with it outside of home...it's simply your personal conviction on it.

a pastor I know grew up on a vineyard. he grew up, never drunk, but having wine with every evening meal. he had been drinking wine from their yard since he was a kid. He grew to learn wine and appreciate it. But when he became pastor, he felt, although NOT A SIN, it was best that he be a more pleasing example of God to his church members, and will not have another glass of wine again!

I think everyone needs to seek God on their own about it, and also measure for what motive they want the drink. MOST people do have a problem with alcohol. they don't see it that way, but I know it to be true. many cannot go without it.

 

[lyonguard]

The verses my friends always brought up to support their view were in proverbs about not having strong drink and that it wasn't for kings. I never knew how to respond to that. Does anyone have any insight on that?

 

[Diatheke]

A good point was brought up in another post - drinking wine. My husband and I also enjoy a glass of wine every now and then. We only drink it at home because it could cause others to stumble and ruin our witness to the lost.

Once, Kenneth Hagin said that drinking was a geographical sin. Here in the US, it is considered sinful to drink alcohol, but in other countries, coffee is sinful.

Other friends of mine believe alcohol of any kind is sinful. I believe that getting drunk is wrong but that having one drink, which is my limit, is not a sin.

My question is two-fold. First, how do you feel about drinking overall, and second, if you believe it is ok, do you believe it covers all alcohol or just wine?

I would like to be able to reference your source and the context but I am unable to find it.

As a graduate of the bible college Rev. Kenneth Hagin founded I can tell you the teaching is to completely abstain from alcohol at all times no matter the circumstance - one instructor even told us if we felt we must drink alcohol go ahead but please turn in any Rhema credentials first and please don't tell anyone you were ever associated with Rhema.

Another instructor taught in great lenghts regarding how the wine of Biblical times was not what we consider wine today - very little alcohol content.
Basically they went to great lenghts to take away all arguements for drinking any alcoholic beverage including wine.

Also as a student you sign a contract stating you will not drink any alchoholic beverage.

In regards to your question I discourage any Christian from drinking wine - there may be no harm for some that can consume in extreme moderation - but what is the substantial benefit?

Please understand I am not judging you but you asked my opinion - if you attended my church I could not condone even moderate wine drinking but I would not be so legalistic about it as to drive you away either.

 

[iafic]

The verses my friends always brought up to support their view were in proverbs about not having strong drink and that it wasn't for kings. I never knew how to respond to that. Does anyone have any insight on that?

I think it says "strong " drink meaning the hard liquor. (?) and "not fit for kings" was that the rulers and kings, those in authority, should always be sober, always be fully keen on thinking and senses at any given time.

that's what I always saw it to mean.

 

[Diatheke]

These are not from my class notes but along the same lines regarding the wine of Biblical times.


Norman Geisler, former Dean of Liberty Center for Christian Scholarship, Liberty University, has written: "Many wine drinking Christians today mistakenly assume that what the New Testament meant by wine is identical to wine used today. This, however, is false. In fact, today’s wine is by Biblical definition strong drink, and hence forbidden by the Bible. What the Bible frequently meant by wine was basically purified water," purified by adding some alcoholic wine. The Holman Bible dictionary says, wine was also used as a medicine and disinfectant.

All alcoholic beverages used in our culture fall under the biblical classification of STRONG DRINK and are therefore forbidden. The least ratio of water to wine mixture used in Bible times was 3 parts water to 1 wine. That produced a sub-alcoholic drink that was 2.5% to 2.75% alcohol. Normally, the ratio was even higher, up to 20 to 1. Their is NO BIBLICAL SUPPORT FOR CHRISTIANS DRINKING THE ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES OF OUR DAY! What early believers drank was sub-alcoholic by today’s standards. Pastors and deacons were cautioned to steer around even the sub-alcoholic stuff (I Timothy 3:3 & 8).

 

[lyonguard]

I would like to be able to reference your source and the context but I am unable to find it.

As a graduate of the bible college Rev. Kenneth Hagin founded I can tell you the teaching is to completely abstain from alcohol at all times no matter the circumstance - one instructor even told us if we felt we must drink alcohol go ahead but please turn in any Rhema credentials first and please don't tell anyone you were ever associated with Rhema.

Another instructor taught in great lenghts regarding how the wine of Biblical times was not what we consider wine today - very little alcohol content.
Basically they went to great lenghts to take away all arguements for drinking any alcoholic beverage including wine.

Also as a student you sign a contract stating you will not drink any alchoholic beverage.

In regards to your question I discourage any Christian from drinking wine - there may be no harm for some that can consume in extreme moderation - but what is the substantial benefit?

Please understand I am not judging you but you asked my opinion - if you attended my church I could not condone even moderate wine drinking but I would not be so legalistic about it as to drive you away either.

Regarding Kenneth Hagin, I understand why they would require no alcohol for those who attend Rhema (I did not attend). I will also admit that I could be mistaken because it was a very long time ago that I heard this. Plus, he may have changed his position after I heard it. However, it is one of those things I would bet money on that I heard. I just wouldn't bet a lot because I was raised Baptist and betting was considered a sin!

 

[PastorMike]

My persoanl preference is that Christians should not drink wine or any other alcaholic beverage... they may have drank wine in bible times but look at their choices...

1. the could drink water, which wasn't so readily available and was often stagnant...
2. they could drink milk which turned sour in the heat
3. they could drink fruit of the vine which fermented in the heat to become wine...

Now look at our choices...
1. fresh sources of water, if not from the tap then bottled...
2. tea, coffee and all the herbal stuff...
3. we can have fruit juice from any tree we desire...
4. we can have Coca Cola and all the carbonated stuff...

and the list goes on... We really don't need to be drinking alcahol because there are so many other choices available to us...

Mike.

 

[PastorJoey]

O.K. I am only answering this because I was asked my opinion and that is what it is.

50 times the Word of God says not to drink alcohol.

1 Time it says it will kill you

1 time says drink it if your sick

1 time says drink it if your dying

So you figure it out.

 

[God_Owned]

We do represent Christ.

Christ made and drank wine.

As far as if it's a sin to drink wine...heavens no...the Bible talks about wine being good for the stomach. I don't look down on or even think twice of Christians having a drink. it's great that the above posters concider their witness and drink at home...I see nothing wrong with it outside of home...it's simply your personal conviction on it.

Good points!

As a graduate of the bible college Rev. Kenneth Hagin founded I can tell you the teaching is to completely abstain from alcohol at all times no matter the circumstance - one instructor even told us if we felt we must drink alcohol go ahead but please turn in any Rhema credentials first and please don't tell anyone you were ever associated with Rhema.

I guess Jesus couldn't go to Rhema.

Another instructor taught in great lenghts regarding how the wine of Biblical times was not what we consider wine today - very little alcohol content. Basically they went to great lenghts to take away all arguements for drinking any alcoholic beverage including wine.

This is how the Baptists explain away Jesus drinking, as if they need to be His public apologist. Wine then is the same as win now.

Also as a student you sign a contract stating you will not drink any alchoholic beverage.

Did they have to sign a contract not to brake any of the ten commandments. Hmmm!

In regards to your question I discourage any Christian from drinking wine - there may be no harm for some that can consume in extreme moderation - but what is the substantial benefit?

Jesus recommended it for the stomach.

Much of the new data supports the basic premise discussed in my past commentaries: Moderate consumption of wine and other alcoholic beverages is associated with a longer and healthier life than that of abstainers (an observation supported by a great mass of published evidence). While at least half of the benefits associated with wine consumption appear to be derived from the alcohol itself (conversely, alcohol, when abused, is the only component of wine that adversely affects health), there are other components of wine that contribute to the same benefits, but they are more complex and variable, and less precisely defined.

Alcohol's health benefits chiefly favor the cardiovascular system, and are dramatically reflected in reduced risks of atherosclerotic heart attacks, ischemic strokes and limb amputations due to compromised blood supply. Scientific views on the healthful effects of wine's other compounds are not as unanimous, however, but are under increased scrutiny. We are just beginning to peel back the layers of understanding.

Most intriguing are the poly-phenolic flavonoids, which can be referred to as antioxidants, according to their most attractive function. Found in grapes, chiefly the skins, their concentrations tend to be higher in red wines (when skins are included in fermentation) than white (when skins are culled). Their functions in the vine are only partially known, antifungal for one.

These antioxidants are less available in other alcoholic beverages. Among the best known, and most biologically active, are resveratrol, quercetin and the catechins.
The antioxidants with which we are concerned are a class of phytochemicals, compounds of vegetable origin. They are not exclusive to grapes, although grapes are richly endowed with them. They are also found in allium vegetables (onions, leeks, garlic, shallots), broccoli, spinach, blueberries, strawberries, tea and chocolate.
For some time, there was doubt about whether antioxidants could be absorbed when ingested as foods and whether they were biologically potent. The most current research has erased any doubt that the antioxidants remain vital when consumed this way. They appear to be even more active than the more renowned antioxidant vitamins A, C and E.

At or near the top of the list of causes of death and disability (some the product of human instigation, others not) are diseases of the heart and blood vessels, cancer and degenerative disorders. While the cause and aggravation of these ills may be multiple and varied, free radicals and the process of oxidation also figure heavily into the formula.

Free radicals (not a political term!) are highly reactive compounds produced normally as the body uses oxygen. Factors such as smoking, radiation and certain chemicals enhance their production, thus straining, and sometimes over-whelming, the body's natural, enzyme-mediated antioxidant defense system. For this reason, there is much interest in supplementing the anti-oxidants derived from food and drink.

Some of mankind's most insidious diseases are suspected of being able to be relieved to some degree by antioxidants, among them heart attack, stroke, other complications of blood-vessel disease, cancer, Alzheimer's disease and other dementias and degenerative disorders, immune dysfunction, cataract and macular degeneration. Aging itself may be retarded by antioxidants. Precise formulas for the relief of these conditions are not yet known. There is reason to believe that antioxidants may not always be entirely benign.
Recent studies of the cardio-vascular system report reduction of the risk of heart attack in the elderly by a diet high in vitamin A (but not vitamins C or E), reduction in the risk of ischemic stroke associated with the antioxidants found in fruits and vegetables (but no benefit from vitamins A, C or E), and improved coronary artery function apparently due to vitamin C.
The antioxidants in wine and grape juice favorably modulate the blood clotting that climaxes heart attacks and strokes; they help further by relaxing blood vessels and inhibiting the oxidation of LDL (the "bad") cholesterol to its dangerous form. Similar, but less-established, benefits may result from the antioxidant flavonoids found in tea and chocolate, virtually identical to those of wine.

Second in importance to their cardiovascular benefits are wine's antioxidant actions against cancer. As a consequence of its antibacterial effects and the scavenging of destructive superoxides to reduce tissue injury, these compounds may prevent cancers of the stomach and other organs.

The antioxidant quercetin has been noted to inhibit the growth of cancer and leukemia cells, and to potentiate anti-cancer chemotherapy. One report has resveratrol initiating a process one might term cancer-cell suicide, but another suggests that antioxidant vitamins may do the opposite, resulting in larger brain tumors in mice. (No harm comes to cancer-free mice of this strain.)
While the above mentioned data is solid, the demonstrated or suspected benefits of the antioxidants discussed below are still preliminary.

• Improved brain and muscle function also has been associated with moderate wine consumption and with inclusion of blueberries, strawberries and spinach in one's diet. One of the most compelling studies compared sets of aging twins. The co-twin of each pair who consumed an average of one to two drinks a day scored higher intellectually than their counterparts who drank significantly more or less.
• A number of very nasty bacteria and viruses are inactivated by wine and by grapes (but, surprisingly, in some cases not by alcohol).
• One report suggests that antioxidants may help prevent toxemia in pregnancy.
• Long noted, but unexplained, has been a disparity between the number of alcohol calories ingested and weight gain. A peek into the mystery may be offered by the recent observation that catechin polyphenols (flavonoid antioxidants, as found in wine and green tea), stimulate the "burning" of body fat.

An ascetic teetotaler might be inclined to ask, why not eat just fruits and veggies, and shun alcohol?
Fear not, there are reasons enough to quaff. Alcohol, in moderation, contributes at least half of wine's cardiovascular benefits, and likely provides numerous other health benefits, and little, if any, risk. In fact, it may even enhance the desired actions of the antioxidants in the enriching form of wine, which is a package that can't be beat.
Contributing Editor Dr. Harvey E. Finkel is a clinical professor of medicine at Boston University Medical Center and chairman of the Committee on Health of the Society of Wine Educators.

Please understand I am not judging you but you asked my opinion - if you attended my church I could not condone even moderate wine drinking but I would not be so legalistic about it as to drive you away either.

So I guess Jesus could come but wouldn't be asked to minister?

Norman Geisler, former Dean of Liberty Center for Christian Scholarship, Liberty University, has written: "Many wine drinking Christians today mistakenly assume that what the New Testament meant by wine is identical to wine used today. This, however, is false. In fact, today’s wine is by Biblical definition strong drink, and hence forbidden by the Bible. What the Bible frequently meant by wine was basically purified water," purified by adding some alcoholic wine. The Holman Bible dictionary says, wine was also used as a medicine and disinfectant.

All alcoholic beverages used in our culture fall under the biblical classification of STRONG DRINK and are therefore forbidden. The least ratio of water to wine mixture used in Bible times was 3 parts water to 1 wine. That produced a sub-alcoholic drink that was 2.5% to 2.75% alcohol. Normally, the ratio was even higher, up to 20 to 1. Their is NO BIBLICAL SUPPORT FOR CHRISTIANS DRINKING THE ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES OF OUR DAY! What early believers drank was sub-alcoholic by today’s standards. Pastors and deacons were cautioned to steer around even the sub-alcoholic stuff (I Timothy 3:3 & 8).

This is absurd and is pretty much what I've heard the Baptists teach.

 

[PastorJoey]

The few "instances" where wine was drank and seemingly condoned dont match up to the many "commands" not to drink it or even look at it when it begins to ferment.

My only logical conclusion is that the wine Jesus drank was the ancient light wine or fresh off the vine.

Based upon my studies in the Word, the commands not to drink it far out weighs the few instances where it is seemingly allowed. And there really is no evidence that the wine Jesus drank was fermented, but there are many scriptures that would suggest it wasnt.

I have no personal problem for a person to drink a glass of wine if they can do it in faith and good conscience. Really I dont care what a person does at all in their personal life. It is none of my business. Neither do I preach against it as if on a mission.

Proverbs 31:4 KJV
(4) It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:

When we drink wine we are telling the devil that we dont believe we are Kings.

Revelation 1:5-6 KJV
(5) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
(6) And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Diatheke]

Christ made and drank wine.



Good points!



I guess Jesus couldn't go to Rhema.




This is how the Baptists explain away Jesus drinking, as if they need to be His public apologist. Wine then is the same as win now.



Did they have to sign a contract not to brake any of the ten commandments. Hmmm!



Jesus recommended it for the stomach.

Much of the new data supports the basic premise discussed in my past commentaries: Moderate consumption of wine and other alcoholic beverages is associated with a longer and healthier life than that of abstainers (an observation supported by a great mass of published evidence). While at least half of the benefits associated with wine consumption appear to be derived from the alcohol itself (conversely, alcohol, when abused, is the only component of wine that adversely affects health), there are other components of wine that contribute to the same benefits, but they are more complex and variable, and less precisely defined.

Alcohol's health benefits chiefly favor the cardiovascular system, and are dramatically reflected in reduced risks of atherosclerotic heart attacks, ischemic strokes and limb amputations due to compromised blood supply. Scientific views on the healthful effects of wine's other compounds are not as unanimous, however, but are under increased scrutiny. We are just beginning to peel back the layers of understanding.

Most intriguing are the poly-phenolic flavonoids, which can be referred to as antioxidants, according to their most attractive function. Found in grapes, chiefly the skins, their concentrations tend to be higher in red wines (when skins are included in fermentation) than white (when skins are culled). Their functions in the vine are only partially known, antifungal for one.

These antioxidants are less available in other alcoholic beverages. Among the best known, and most biologically active, are resveratrol, quercetin and the catechins.
The antioxidants with which we are concerned are a class of phytochemicals, compounds of vegetable origin. They are not exclusive to grapes, although grapes are richly endowed with them. They are also found in allium vegetables (onions, leeks, garlic, shallots), broccoli, spinach, blueberries, strawberries, tea and chocolate.
For some time, there was doubt about whether antioxidants could be absorbed when ingested as foods and whether they were biologically potent. The most current research has erased any doubt that the antioxidants remain vital when consumed this way. They appear to be even more active than the more renowned antioxidant vitamins A, C and E.

At or near the top of the list of causes of death and disability (some the product of human instigation, others not) are diseases of the heart and blood vessels, cancer and degenerative disorders. While the cause and aggravation of these ills may be multiple and varied, free radicals and the process of oxidation also figure heavily into the formula.

Free radicals (not a political term!) are highly reactive compounds produced normally as the body uses oxygen. Factors such as smoking, radiation and certain chemicals enhance their production, thus straining, and sometimes over-whelming, the body's natural, enzyme-mediated antioxidant defense system. For this reason, there is much interest in supplementing the anti-oxidants derived from food and drink.

Some of mankind's most insidious diseases are suspected of being able to be relieved to some degree by antioxidants, among them heart attack, stroke, other complications of blood-vessel disease, cancer, Alzheimer's disease and other dementias and degenerative disorders, immune dysfunction, cataract and macular degeneration. Aging itself may be retarded by antioxidants. Precise formulas for the relief of these conditions are not yet known. There is reason to believe that antioxidants may not always be entirely benign.
Recent studies of the cardio-vascular system report reduction of the risk of heart attack in the elderly by a diet high in vitamin A (but not vitamins C or E), reduction in the risk of ischemic stroke associated with the antioxidants found in fruits and vegetables (but no benefit from vitamins A, C or E), and improved coronary artery function apparently due to vitamin C.
The antioxidants in wine and grape juice favorably modulate the blood clotting that climaxes heart attacks and strokes; they help further by relaxing blood vessels and inhibiting the oxidation of LDL (the "bad") cholesterol to its dangerous form. Similar, but less-established, benefits may result from the antioxidant flavonoids found in tea and chocolate, virtually identical to those of wine.

Second in importance to their cardiovascular benefits are wine's antioxidant actions against cancer. As a consequence of its antibacterial effects and the scavenging of destructive superoxides to reduce tissue injury, these compounds may prevent cancers of the stomach and other organs.

The antioxidant quercetin has been noted to inhibit the growth of cancer and leukemia cells, and to potentiate anti-cancer chemotherapy. One report has resveratrol initiating a process one might term cancer-cell suicide, but another suggests that antioxidant vitamins may do the opposite, resulting in larger brain tumors in mice. (No harm comes to cancer-free mice of this strain.)
While the above mentioned data is solid, the demonstrated or suspected benefits of the antioxidants discussed below are still preliminary.

• Improved brain and muscle function also has been associated with moderate wine consumption and with inclusion of blueberries, strawberries and spinach in one's diet. One of the most compelling studies compared sets of aging twins. The co-twin of each pair who consumed an average of one to two drinks a day scored higher intellectually than their counterparts who drank significantly more or less.
• A number of very nasty bacteria and viruses are inactivated by wine and by grapes (but, surprisingly, in some cases not by alcohol).
• One report suggests that antioxidants may help prevent toxemia in pregnancy.
• Long noted, but unexplained, has been a disparity between the number of alcohol calories ingested and weight gain. A peek into the mystery may be offered by the recent observation that catechin polyphenols (flavonoid antioxidants, as found in wine and green tea), stimulate the "burning" of body fat.

An ascetic teetotaler might be inclined to ask, why not eat just fruits and veggies, and shun alcohol?
Fear not, there are reasons enough to quaff. Alcohol, in moderation, contributes at least half of wine's cardiovascular benefits, and likely provides numerous other health benefits, and little, if any, risk. In fact, it may even enhance the desired actions of the antioxidants in the enriching form of wine, which is a package that can't be beat.
Contributing Editor Dr. Harvey E. Finkel is a clinical professor of medicine at Boston University Medical Center and chairman of the Committee on Health of the Society of Wine Educators.




So I guess Jesus could come but wouldn't be asked to minister?



This is absurd and is pretty much what I've heard the Baptists teach.

I was asked my opinion and I gave it and I stand by it - you have the right to consider it absurd if you want.

I only threw the Rhema information in due to the original post could have led people to believe Rev. Hagin condoned wine drinking and I felt I needed to comment.

For every person that has been helped medically by wine, there are countless ones who have been destroyed from it - like I said I'm not being legalistic towards you personally but in good conscience I could never condone drinking for Christians.

One one hand the Bible says strong drink will kill you on the other hand the Bible gives examples of wine drinking so I guess the question is "What is strong drink?"
IMHO the wine we have today is strong drink and I can't condone it.

If Christians don't drink wine - what do they lose?
Nothing or next to nothing?
If we do drink wine and it makes others stumble since it their mind we condone it - what do they stand to lose?
Everything.

I see very little upside to drinking and a huge downside.

 

[Tcelt12]

alcohol is by far the deadliest drug being abused in our country today.being a former drunkard,it has always mystified me as to why people choose to indulge in 'one or two only'.i am not saying it is sinful to do that,but whats the point?the wine paul prescribed for the stomach obviously wasn't the stuff we consume today.
i loved the initial 'tipsy,relaxed'feeling of one or two,but that amount just softened my will up to begin to consume more.the danger is,the more you consume,the more your judgement is impaired,right?
and no,it's not worth your witness.about six months ago my wife and i began to flirt with wine again.'just a bottle to share at home'..a person from our church came down the aisle and saw the wine in our shopping cart.we were both embarrassed.but we took it home and drank it.and guess what i had the urge to do after that first bottle?same thing i used to do 9 years and more ago.head out to the nightclub,see some live music,and PARTY.just being honest.
In reality,i kind of hate alcohol.it's done alot of damage in my life(at one point i almost killed someone),and i've seen it lead a friend or two to their deaths.i'm not trying to judge or condemn anyone,but alcohol is a dangerous,mind altering drug.why mess with it? please forgive if i have offended anyone.

 

[If Not For Grace]

geographical sin

So you mean I can go to a part of Africa where being fat is a sign of wealth not gorging and it won't be a sin -- I wonder what God does if there is an earthquake and geographic location change. That means I better read up and go where my lifestyle is ....you get the idea--

What a bunch of horsefeathers...

Drinking alcohol is not a sin, but the risk of getting drunk (which is a sin) is there. Just like when using fire we must be careful what we start for we are responsible for it, and alcoholism runs rampant in the US.

 

[PastorJoey]

alcohol is by far the deadliest drug being abused in our country today.being a former drunkard,it has always mystified me as to why people choose to indulge in 'one or two only'.i am not saying it is sinful to do that,but whats the point?the wine paul prescribed for the stomach obviously wasn't the stuff we consume today.
i loved the initial 'tipsy,relaxed'feeling of one or two,but that amount just softened my will up to begin to consume more.the danger is,the more you consume,the more your judgement is impaired,right?
and no,it's not worth your witness.about six months ago my wife and i began to flirt with wine again.'just a bottle to share at home'..a person from our church came down the aisle and saw the wine in our shopping cart.we were both embarrassed.but we took it home and drank it.and guess what i had the urge to do after that first bottle?same thing i used to do 9 years and more ago.head out to the nightclub,see some live music,and PARTY.just being honest.
In reality,i kind of hate alcohol.it's done alot of damage in my life(at one point i almost killed someone),and i've seen it lead a friend or two to their deaths.i'm not trying to judge or condemn anyone,but alcohol is a dangerous,mind altering drug.why mess with it? please forgive if i have offended anyone.

Great post and very true Celt. One lady I met said that she drank one glass of wine just to relax. And after that one glass of wine there was no mistake about it, she was relaxed alright.

 

[God_Owned]

I was asked my opinion and I gave it and I stand by it - you have the right to consider it absurd if you want.

I only threw the Rhema information in due to the original post could have led people to believe Rev. Hagin condoned wine drinking and I felt I needed to comment.

I'm not upset with you. We can disagree and still be in fellowship.

For every person that has been helped medically by wine, there are countless ones who have been destroyed from it - like I said I'm not being legalistic towards you personally but in good conscience I could never condone drinking for Christians.

Wine is not the issue,anymore than food is the issue. It is what we choose to do with it. When we abuse food or wine, it is harmful.

One one hand the Bible says strong drink will kill you on the other hand the Bible gives examples of wine drinking so I guess the question is "What is strong drink?"
IMHO the wine we have today is strong drink and I can't condone it.

This is still nonsense, but believe what you choose.

If Christians don't drink wine - what do they lose?
Nothing or next to nothing?

Not true and you've been given mucho evidence to the contrary. I guess you didn't read it.

If we do drink wine and it makes others stumble since it their mind we condone it - what do they stand to lose?
Everything.

You stand to lose everything if you are a glutton too.

I see very little upside to drinking and a huge downside.

You ignore the evidence. I wonder why Jesus chose making wine to be his first miracle? Do you think he knew what hw was doing?

 

[Diatheke]

Even if Christians feel they are legally free to drink wine by doing so are we gaining so much benefit that is worth the possibility of corrupting someone else and possibly leading them into sin?


1 Corinthians


23All things are legitimate [permissible--and we are free to do anything we please], but not all things are helpful (expedient, profitable, and wholesome). All things are legitimate, but not all things are constructive [to character] and edifying [to spiritual life].
24Let no one then seek his own good and advantage and profit, but [rather] each one of the other [let him seek the welfare of his neighbor].
25[As to meat offered to idols] eat anything that is sold in the meat market without raising any question or investigating on the grounds of conscientious scruples,
26For the [whole] earth is the Lord's and everything that is in it.(M)
27In case one of the unbelievers invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is served to you without examining into its source because of conscientious scruples.
28But if someone tells you, This has been offered in sacrifice to an idol, do not eat it, out of consideration for the person who informed you, and for conscience's sake--
29I mean for the sake of his conscience, not yours, [do not eat it]. For why should another man's scruples apply to me and my liberty of action be determined by his conscience?
30If I partake [of my food] with thankfulness, why am I accused and spoken evil of because of that for which I give thanks?
31So then, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you may do, do all for the honor and glory of God. 32Do not let yourselves be [hindrances by giving] an offense to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God [[e]do not lead others into sin by your mode of life];


I remember many years ago there was a small country club and my friends and I would go on Sunday's to eat. (we were not Christians - far from it) and every Sunday a particular denomination would come in from church and sit near us and drink wine.
I can tell you as non-Christian it made us view them as hypoctrites and helped us justify our own drinking habits.
So were they legally allowed to drink wine? Maybe....
did they lead a group of young men including myself to believe Christians were a bunch of Bible thumping hypocrites that drank just like we did - Definitely!

 

[God_Owned]

alcohol is by far the deadliest drug being abused in our country today.being a former drunkard,it has always mystified me as to why people choose to indulge in 'one or two only'.i am not saying it is sinful to do that,but whats the point?the wine paul prescribed for the stomach obviously wasn't the stuff we consume today.

Some people will go to any extent to turn wine back into water. Wine in the Bible is the same wine we drink today. Jesus wasn't making grape juice for the wedding feast. This is not consistent with Jewish custom. Obesity is a greater problem than alcohol, its just sneaker.

i loved the initial 'tipsy,relaxed'feeling of one or two,but that amount just softened my will up to begin to consume more.the danger is,the more you consume,the more your judgement is impaired,right?
and no,it's not worth your witness.about six months ago my wife and i began to flirt with wine again.'just a bottle to share at home'..a person from our church came down the aisle and saw the wine in our shopping cart.we were both embarrassed.but we took it home and drank it.and guess what i had the urge to do after that first bottle?same thing i used to do 9 years and more

Do you think Jesus lost His witness when he drank wine and offered it at communion?

ago.head out to the nightclub,see some live music,and PARTY.just being honest.
In reality,i kind of hate alcohol.it's done alot of damage in my life(at one point i almost killed someone),and i've seen it lead a friend or two to their deaths.i'm not trying to judge or condemn anyone,but alcohol is a dangerous,mind altering drug.why mess with it? please forgive if i have offended anyone.

I don't go to night clubs and haven't even had wine in so long I can't remember, but I don't deny what the Bible actually says about it or the medical evidence of it health benefits.

Alcohol, drugs, food and a number of other substance can be abused if one is self-destructive.