Dr. Dino, a look at an article...

[seebs]

Today at 08:55 PM mjiracek said this in Post #77

ok let me throw this at you...
if every human on earth had blonde hair...then one generation of the hair gene was copied wrong somebody would get brown hair?

That depends, and I don't think hair color is a good example, because it varies so much, and isn't just a single-gene thing.

It's not a "generation". Just *one creature*. So, for instance, what might happen would be that one person would be born with slightly darker hair... if that person had a lot of kids, there might be a few people with darker hair. No big effect. Now, if everyone decides that "dark hair looks really sexy", you could see, over HUNDREDS of generations, a gradual trend towards brown hair.

To give a simpler example, consider bacteria in a petri dish. You have millions of them reproducing constantly. If you raise the temperature, a few of them will turn out to have mutations that make them more able to survive at higher temperatures, and they will compete better, and over time, the colony will get much better at surviving in higher temperatures.

An example we've seen in the wild is that there's now some bacteria which can digest certain plastics. They're digesting a chemical which NEVER EXISTED BEFORE. What happened? Some bacterium somewhere copied the DNA for building an enzyme wrong, and the resulting enzyme was useful; it survived and multiplied, and now that mutated DNA is becoming more widespread. Just a simple error in a protein; about at the level of writing AABA instead of AAAA, or maybe turning AABA into AACA.

If you want to see the same principles in more controlled circumstances, genetic algorithms are your best bet. Random bits flipped, and you end up with something which looks like a "design", but a very odd design.

 

[seebs]

Today at 09:01 PM CoHehir said this in Post #80

Ok. . .pick random letters, you get band names eventually.
I hope this isn't too out of left field. . .where did you get the letters, and why are they necessarily understood?

ðξњℓ◦ζ

There are some characters. They have a form, they are 'proteins.' But they are not understood. So, monkeys typing on a keyboard may write Shakespeare's works, but they need a keyboard with characters that make sense to each other first.

That's why evolution assumes a single functioning life form as a starting point. If you want to get into how you get that first cell, that's abiogenesis, which is a separate field. Evolution talks about what happens once you have at least one life form. In our world, we have strong evidence that there was only one root life form which led to the life we see today. We don't know what may or may not have formed on other worlds.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Today at 02:39 AM mjiracek said this in Post #71

way to go cohehir. yeah why would it be hard to live on a planet that obviously had recent rains? wouldnt the ground be arable enough for that?

We are not talking about a little spell of rain. We are talking about a year long flood that supposedly rearranged all the worlds geology depositing thousands of feet of sediments all over the world.  Top soil takes time to develop and there would be none and many plants won't survive a year in water.   Here's an experiment for you. Run some water over a patch of ground for 40 days and nights and then soak it for a year,  then throw down as wide a variety of seeds as you want that have been soaking in water for a year.  See what grows. I think not much will grow. 

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[mjiracek]

so lets a fish mates and the baby has a nub...that nub is the beggining of a leg...the nub is useless for the fish and therefore would be eliminated in the next generation right? or would would nature allow a useless part hoping that someday it becomes useful through more really small changes over long periods of time

 

[seebs]

Today at 08:59 PM mjiracek said this in Post #79

or is it like this...if a car factory was putting cars together and lets say one in every million times it stamped a part wrong or in your words copied the info wrong that eventually it would lead to a better car part?

Ahh, you *are* getting close to genetic algorithms. One way that you can make a design is to set up a rule-based system for describing parts, and come up with a set of rules for "aerodynamic profiles". Try each profile in a wind tunnel, then take the most successful ones, modify them at random, test them again, and occasionally exchange bits of design information between them; you eventually end up with a much better profile. You can do this for nearly anything. One guy has "bred" chips which can reliably distinguish between the words "yes" and "no". No one has any idea how they work, and we don't think any human engineer could build a part to solve that problem on as few components as the genetic algorithm did it at.

One early example of this was breeding chips to emit a signal at a certain frequency. The winning device had parts that weren't even electrically connected to other parts, but which provided resonance. Any human engineer would have used a clock; the chip that evolved doesn't, and we don't know for sure *how* it works.

 

[seebs]

http://biology.kenyon.edu/slonc/bio3/AI/GEN_ALGO/gen_algo.html

A good page to review to get a bit of information about "genetic algorithms".

 

[seebs]

Today at 09:06 PM mjiracek said this in Post #84

so lets a fish mates and the baby has a nub...that nub is the beggining of a leg...the nub is useless for the fish and therefore would be eliminated in the next generation right? or would would nature allow a useless part hoping that someday it becomes useful through more really small changes over long periods of time

Why not have a useless part? Unless it's causing problems, it's likely to stick around as long as the parent organism is still at least tolerably successful.

You're assuming more awareness and goal-oriented behavior than evolution involves. Parts aren't "eliminated" for being useless; rather, if organisms that have a part regularly fail in cases where organisms without it succeed, the ones that lack the part have more children.

 

[mjiracek]

We are not talking about a little spell of rain. We are talking about a year long flood that supposedly rearranged all the worlds geology depositing thousands of feet of sediments all over the world. Top soil takes time to develop and there would be none and many plants won't survive a year in water. Here's an experiment for you. Run some water over a patch of ground for 40 days and nights and then soak it for a year, then throw down as wide a variety of seeds as you want that have been soaking in water for a year. See what grows. I think not much will grow.


ok thats nice. but in genesis noah did not get offthe ark until vegetation was alrerady growing. and seeds can stay for a remarkably long amount of time. they can travel through the bowels of animals digestion process and still take root. also noah had a huge boat here and it is believed that over half was for storage of food so i would not worry tomuch about them being able to wait it out

 

[CoHehir]

B = plastic-eating gene previously unrecognized to have ability
C = normal-eating gene

AAACCCCAA + AAACBBCAA
=
AAACBBCAA

Complete AAACCCCAA's die off, or become low in number because of inability to digest all the snickers wrappers alongside the road in Iowa.

AAACBBCAA still carries the normal-eating gene

The ability may have lain dormant until it was under 'natural selection' to dominate its population.

Similarly, the human races of the earth have traits that suddenly 'appear,' but have only been dormant until unlocked by a lack of a more dominant gene.

 

[mjiracek]

"Parts aren't "eliminated" for being useless;"

sure they are short haired dogs in the artic are useless just like fish with nubs in the ocean are useless and both are a hinderance to the respective animal

 

[Arikay]

Your right, we are talking about enough rain to destroy the ark.

Of course, the flood is also supposed to have turned a lot of vegitation into Oil and coal. So, how did the vegitation turn into oil and coal AND survive, at the same time?

So, can you tell me how Noah got the Blue whale onto the ark?

Today at 07:11 PM mjiracek said this in Post #88

We are not talking about a little spell of rain. We are talking about a year long flood that supposedly rearranged all the worlds geology depositing thousands of feet of sediments all over the world. Top soil takes time to develop and there would be none and many plants won't survive a year in water. Here's an experiment for you. Run some water over a patch of ground for 40 days and nights and then soak it for a year, then throw down as wide a variety of seeds as you want that have been soaking in water for a year. See what grows. I think not much will grow.


ok thats nice. but in genesis noah did not get offthe ark until vegetation was alrerady growing. and seeds can stay for a remarkably long amount of time. they can travel through the bowels of animals digestion process and still take root. also noah had a huge boat here and it is believed that over half was for storage of food so i would not worry tomuch about them being able to wait it out

 

[mjiracek]

Today at 09:07 PM seebs said this in Post #85



Ahh, you *are* getting close to genetic algorithms. One way that you can make a design is to set up a rule-based system for describing parts, and come up with a set of rules for "aerodynamic profiles". Try each profile in a wind tunnel, then take the most successful ones, modify them at random, test them again, and occasionally exchange bits of design information between them; you eventually end up with a much better profile. You can do this for nearly anything. One guy has "bred" chips which can reliably distinguish between the words "yes" and "no". No one has any idea how they work, and we don't think any human engineer could build a part to solve that problem on as few components as the genetic algorithm did it at.

One early example of this was breeding chips to emit a signal at a certain frequency. The winning device had parts that weren't even electrically connected to other parts, but which provided resonance. Any human engineer would have used a clock; the chip that evolved doesn't, and we don't know for sure *how* it works.

so the guy who bred these chips. he had to initially put that info in there in the first place right? and then he chose which ones to use again based off results. also those algorithims are off a 'rule based system' . who made the rules?

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Today at 10:16 PM mjiracek said this in Post #90

sure they are short haired dogs in the artic are useless just like fish with nubs in the ocean are useless and both are a hinderance to the respective animal

Environment plays a big role in determining whether something is "useful" or "harmful" or just plain neutral.

For example, a short-haired dog may not do so well in the Arctic, but would probably have little trouble surviving in a warmer climate. Likewise, a dog adapted to cold-weather climates may very suffer heat stroke in a too-hot climate.

 

[mjiracek]

sure i can tell you how he got hte whale onto the ark. he did not...the bible says "of the fowl of their kind,and of the cattle of their kind, of every creeping thing on earth after his kind." no fish there

i did not say the plants survived i said the seeds did. so the vegitation could have turned into fossil fuels while the seeds remained.

and read the bible on how the ark was built...it was huge and solid not a rowboat.

 

[CoHehir]

Today at 09:06 PM Frumious Bandersnatch said this in Post #83


Here's an experiment for you. Run some water over a patch of ground for 40 days and nights and then soak it for a year,  then throw down as wide a variety of seeds as you want that have been soaking in water for a year.  See what grows. I think not much will grow. 

The Frumious Bandersnatch

Ever hear of Arizona? Yeah, it's been in a drought for about 7 years. The lakes are at about 8% capacity, which means there's many square miles of previously soaked land next to the lake. This February and March there was a break in the drought. I've yet to see anything so amazingly green grow in a matter of weeks.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Today at 10:06 PM mjiracek said this in Post #84

so lets a fish mates and the baby has a nub...that nub is the beggining of a leg...the nub is useless for the fish and therefore would be eliminated in the next generation right? or would would nature allow a useless part hoping that someday it becomes useful through more really small changes over long periods of time

Try to guess what this is: http://www.animecritic.com/_temp/mudskipper.jpg

edit: Oops, I guess it would be pretty obvious from the file name. Anyway, it's a mudskipper, a type of fish with pectoral fins specially adapted to allow the fish to walk on land and even climb trees. The pectoral fins aren't full legs, but still give the fish an advantage over its water-only cousins.

 

[mjiracek]

well i have to go to a meeting for a bit but ill pick this up later

 

[CoHehir]

Good discussion, even if you think we are all whacked out fools. I appreciate your willingness to at least listen, and I hope the best for you this evening.

I believe in God, and so I say God bless, and mean it. Don't be offended.

 

[Arikay]

Are you sure you arent leaving something out?

God says:

Gen 7:22__ All in whose nostrils [was] the breath of life, of all that [was] in the dry [land], died.
__
Gen 7:23__ And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained [alive], and they that [were] with him in the ark.

First of all, the blue whale breaths air, so it died

Second god says every living substance was destroyed. And tht only Noah and the ark remained.

So, either god lied, or the Blue whale was on the ark.

This should be interesting, can you show me how the flood was able to crush plants into coal, yet not harm the seeds?

Today at 07:24 PM mjiracek said this in Post #94

sure i can tell you how he got hte whale onto the ark. he did not...the bible says "of the fowl of their kind,and of the cattle of their kind, of every creeping thing on earth after his kind." no fish there

i did not say the plants survived i said the seeds did. so the vegitation could have turned into fossil fuels while the seeds remained.

and read the bible on how the ark was built...it was huge and solid not a rowboat.

 

[seebs]

Today at 09:19 PM mjiracek said this in Post #92

so the guy who bred these chips. he had to initially put that info in there in the first place right? and then he chose which ones to use again based off results. also those algorithims are off a 'rule based system' . who made the rules?

No. The information put into them was random arrays of bits. Everything past that was random mutations.

As to the "rules", the "rules" for these chips are like physics and chemistry for us; nothing near the level at which we're studying the system.

Evolution is in no way inconsistent with God creating the universe and establishing physics. Evolution just says that all of the evidence suggests that life forms change and adapt from generation to generation, and that everything we see is consistent with a single life form a while back gradually adapting, splitting into different species, and adapting further for a couple billion years. There's a lot of evidence suggesting that's what happened.

The "new information" thing is a very poor argument. If you mutate and select, you end up with more information. Selection doesn't require any conscious effort; any enviroment will "select" for creatures which are well-adapted to it.

This is separate from the question of how the first cell formed; that's abiogenesis, and a much different field.