don't Boycott Israel because israel isn't a war criminal.

[ebia]

I go along with this as long as you don't have a problem with boycotts against the population of Gaza for the blatant "war-crimes" committed by Hamas? Do you think it's ethical to use boycotts against the residents of Gaza to encourage Hamas to take human rights more seriously?

If Hamas is a legitimate government concerned with the welfare of its own people - then that is essentially what Israel has tried to do and failed.
If Hamas is what Israel claims - a terrorist organisation that doesn't give a ... Then no.

 

[Danny777]

If Hamas is a legitimate government concerned with the welfare of its own people - then that is essentially what Israel has tried to do and failed.
If Hamas is what Israel claims - a terrorist organisation that doesn't give a ... Then no.

Do you think Hamas is a legitimate government? Is Hamas guilty of "war-crimes"?

The usual double standards on this issue on display here - accusing Israel of "war-crimes" and suggesting it's population should be punished for this with boycotts whilst either ignoring or excusing "war-crimes" committed by Hamas...

 

[Oafman]

I go along with this as long as you don't have a problem with boycotts against the population of Gaza for the blatant "war-crimes" committed by Hamas?

Do you think it's ethical to use boycotts against the residents of Gaza to encourage Hamas to take human rights more seriously?

What exactly are you going to boycott?

Are you aware that, as part of the blockade, Israel blocks exports from Gaza?

Economically, Gazans have nothing. 80% of them rely on foreign aid. With no ability to export, they have no opportunity to change this situation. This is why many of them turn to armed resistance.

 

[Danny777]

What exactly are you going to boycott?

Are you aware that, as part of the blockade, Israel blocks exports from Gaza?

Economically, Gazans have nothing. 80% of them rely on foreign aid. With no ability to export, they have no opportunity to change this situation. This is why many of them turn to armed resistance.

I've seen goods from Gaza on display in markets although I agree they have very little to export.

Gaza could be very different - a massive amount of foreign aid is pumped into this area. The vast majority is squandered by Hamas who use it for weaponry, the construction of tunnels and most of all to make themselves multi-millionaires and live a life of obscene luxury. If they we able to able to finance the construction of a tunnel network to attack Israeli's, you might think they would build some bomb shelters for their population instead of encouraging/forcing themselves to stand underneath the rockets in a suicide mission.

As usual, most are blaming the wrong side. Israel is far from perfect in this situation but the primary culprits are Hamas - it's bewildering how most people refuse to see the glaringly obvious. Hamas do not want a "two-state" solution - they don't want any solution...until this changes, this is an impossible situation and many innocent people will continue to lose their lives.

Another side issue: I notice there are no complaints or protests in the streets of London about the constant flow of rockets that are fired into Israel (1000's this year already) - we are only talking about this because Israel is finally taking action. Why doesn't the church take to the streets are protest against Hamas treatment of it's own people (including the persecuted Christian community) and the open desire to murder any Jews or Christian's. Instead the church will protest against Israel in dealing with an impossible enemy - again, double standards....

Where are the protests against Hamas? - The Truth of Judgment Day

 

[ebia]

Do you think Hamas is a legitimate government?

No.

Is Hamas guilty of "war-crimes"?

I'm not sure that is the right term.

The usual double standards on this issue on display here - accusing Israel of "war-crimes" and suggesting it's population should be punished for this with boycotts whilst either ignoring or excusing "war-crimes" committed by Hamas...

Yes, I expect a democratic government to be held to a higher standard than terrorists. And I expect to hold a population that elected that government in a functioning democracy and functioning culture to account in a way that I don't expect for a population that is denied the freedom and resources to develop a well functioning government or hold it to account.


Since Israel effectively blockades the Palestinian Territories to an extent well beyond what any blockade of Israel is likely to do, and has done for a long time, to argue against blockading Israel is the real double standard.

 

[Oafman]

I've seen goods from Gaza on display in markets although I agree they have very little to export.

Gaza could be very different - a massive amount of foreign aid is pumped into this area. The vast majority is squandered by Hamas who use it for weaponry, the construction of tunnels and most of all to make themselves multi-millionaires and live a life of obscene luxury. If they we able to able to finance the construction of a tunnel network to attack Israeli's, you might think they would build some bomb shelters for their population instead of encouraging/forcing themselves to stand underneath the rockets in a suicide mission.

As usual, most are blaming the wrong side. Israel is far from perfect in this situation but the primary culprits are Hamas - it's bewildering how most people refuse to see the glaringly obvious. Hamas do not want a "two-state" solution - they don't want any solution...until this changes, this is an impossible situation and many innocent people will continue to lose their lives.

Another side issue: I notice there are no complaints or protests in the streets of London about the constant flow of rockets that are fired into Israel (1000's this year already) - we are only talking about this because Israel is finally taking action. Why doesn't the church take to the streets are protest against Hamas treatment of it's own people (including the persecuted Christian community) and the open desire to murder any Jews or Christian's. Instead the church will protest against Israel in dealing with an impossible enemy - again, double standards....

Where are the protests against Hamas? - The Truth of Judgment Day

Western aid to Gaza does not take the form of cheques to Hamas. It goes to the relief agencies (mostly UN) working there.

In fact, this is a popular misconception about overseas aid in general - that it is cash to corrupt governments. This is almost always not the case - the development sector works very hard to ensure their help gets to the people who need it most.

Of course, you can find examples of money that ended up in the wrong hands, but nothing is perfect.

As for protests against Hamas, most of us would agree that they are a very distasteful organisation, in many ways. But what they don't have are the resources for industrialised killing. Israel is well resourced in this department, as we can see in the news right now. If Hamas were blockading Israel, and killing people on a similar scale to what we're seeing in Gaza, then I would certainly boycott/protest against them.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Do you think Hamas is a legitimate government? Is Hamas guilty of "war-crimes"?

The usual double standards on this issue on display here - accusing Israel of "war-crimes" and suggesting it's population should be punished for this with boycotts whilst either ignoring or excusing "war-crimes" committed by Hamas...

The topic of this thread is Israel and its actions. Not Hamas and their actions.

This black and white thinking of you people is extremely juvenile.

Just because one is of the opinion that Israel committed war-crimes, does not in any way shape or form mean that they side with Hamas by definition and approve of everything Hamas does by definition.

In fact, it's perfectly possible to do as I do:
Say that BOTH Israel and Hamas are guilty of war crimes and that BOTH sides are barbaric and "the bad guys".

 

[Danny777]

Western aid to Gaza does not take the form of cheques to Hamas. It goes to the relief agencies (mostly UN) working there.

In fact, this is a popular misconception about overseas aid in general - that it is cash to corrupt governments. This is almost always not the case - the development sector works very hard to ensure their help gets to the people who need it most.

Of course, you can find examples of money that ended up in the wrong hands, but nothing is perfect.

As for protests against Hamas, most of us would agree that they are a very distasteful organisation, in many ways. But what they don't have are the resources for industrialised killing. Israel is well resourced in this department, as we can see in the news right now. If Hamas were blockading Israel, and killing people on a similar scale to what we're seeing in Gaza, then I would certainly boycott/protest against them.

So, where does Hamas get its funding then? It manages to fund the extensive building of tunnels and the purchase of 1000's of rockets and other weapons. More than 1200 leaders of Hamas are now dollar millionaires with one of the leaders (Mashal) amassing a fortune of $2.6 billion (reported by Jordanian media) whilst they do nothing to protect their own citizens.

Yes, Israel possesses the wealth and firepower for "industrialised" killing. Given this, they are capable are far more destruction than they have committed and I can't imagine any other nation exercising more restraint. Even Western nations have a far worse track record in killing civilians in battles when their own interests are threatened.

What nation wouldn't blockade it's own borders when it is obvious that weaponry is being smuggled through? Even with the blockade, Hamas managed to smuggles 1000's of rockets into its territory...I'm sure if they showed the same determination to smuggle much needed food and medical supplies they would manage it!

 

[Danny777]

No. I'm not sure that is the right term. Yes, I expect a democratic government to be held to a higher standard than terrorists. And I expect to hold a population that elected that government in a functioning democracy and functioning culture to account in a way that I don't expect for a population that is denied the freedom and resources to develop a well functioning government or hold it to account.


Since Israel effectively blockades the Palestinian Territories to an extent well beyond what any blockade of Israel is likely to do, and has done for a long time, to argue against blockading Israel is the real double standard.

Tell me, what should Israel do about the continuous rocket fire? (1000's of rockets have being launched against Israel so far this year - hundreds before 8th July). Maybe they have over reacted, but rather than state what they shouldn't do, can you help with a solution?

 

[ebia]

Tell me, what should Israel do about the continuous rocket fire? (1000's of rockets have being launched against Israel so far this year - hundreds before 8th July). Maybe they have over reacted, but rather than state what they shouldn't do, can you help with a solution?

Far more people have been killed in car accidents in Israel in that time. Should they send the tanks and missiles in to destroy the European and Japanese car factories?

 

[Oafman]

So, where does Hamas get its funding then? It manages to fund the extensive building of tunnels and the purchase of 1000's of rockets and other weapons.

From the Arab world. Though I'm skeptical of some of those numbers.

Yes, Israel possesses the wealth and firepower for "industrialised" killing. Given this, they are capable are far more destruction than they have committed and I can't imagine any other nation exercising more restraint. Even Western nations have a far worse track record in killing civilians in battles when their own interests are threatened.

I disagree. With modern weapons, accuracy is far more achievable than it used to be. Even in Iraq and Afghanistan, the proportion of combatant casualties to civilian casualties were much higher than we're seeing in Gaza, and these were also battles fought amongst the people, for the most part. You'll rarely hear me defending western actions in those countries, but decisions were regularly taken not to shoot back at the enemy when they were in heavily populated areas.

And remember, this is not just in houses where Hamas have encouraged civilians to remain. Schools and hospitals - often UN administered - are being hit with alarming regularity. It's heartbreaking to see the footage.

What nation wouldn't blockade it's own borders when it is obvious that weaponry is being smuggled through? Even with the blockade, Hamas managed to smuggles 1000's of rockets into its territory...I'm sure if they showed the same determination to smuggle much needed food and medical supplies they would manage it!

It's their neighbour's borders they're blockading, not their own. And the comparison between smuggling rockets and food does not stand up. Just think about how many tonnes of food and medical supplies are required by 1.7m people. You can't hope to get that through tunnels. And then there's things like construction materials (of which they need a lot, considering the level of destruction of buildings), which cannot be smuggled in.

Hamas' rocket fire is unjustifiable, indiscriminate as it is. But blockading a country of 1.7m people is equally unjustifiable. A plague on both their houses.

 

[Danny777]

From the Arab world. Though I'm skeptical of some of those numbers.


I disagree. With modern weapons, accuracy is far more achievable than it used to be. Even in Iraq and Afghanistan, the proportion of combatant casualties to civilian casualties were much higher than we're seeing in Gaza, and these were also battles fought amongst the people, for the most part. You'll rarely hear me defending western actions in those countries, but decisions were regularly taken not to shoot back at the enemy when they were in heavily populated areas.

And remember, this is not just in houses where Hamas have encouraged civilians to remain. Schools and hospitals - often UN administered - are being hit with alarming regularity. It's heartbreaking to see the footage.


It's their neighbour's borders they're blockading, not their own. And the comparison between smuggling rockets and food does not stand up. Just think about how many tonnes of food and medical supplies are required by 1.7m people. You can't hope to get that through tunnels. And then there's things like construction materials (of which they need a lot, considering the level of destruction of buildings), which cannot be smuggled in.

Hamas' rocket fire is unjustifiable, indiscriminate as it is. But blockading a country of 1.7m people is equally unjustifiable. A plague on both their houses.

I agree it's heart breaking. It's also very hard to know what to believe from the media - I am also skeptical of the high number of civilian casualties from the Gaza strip as we are relying on the Hamas run health ministry.

I think this conflict is a new challenge for any nation. Most civilian populations run away from incoming rockets (the Israeli's run to the shelters). Many civilian's of Gaza are encouraged (sometimes forced) to run towards to the site of an incoming rocket. How do you suggest Israel deals with this? Should they simply allow the Hamas fired rockets to keep coming?! This seems to be the only way the media will lose interest in this conflict...

One thing I can't understand is why thousands of "Pro-Palestinians" took to the streets of London this weekend in protest against Israel. Where are they when tens of thousands of fellow Muslims are being massacred in Syria or Iraq or Nigeria or anywhere else? Why is it they only seem to care when Israel is the perceived aggressor but there is total silence when far more are killed by other Muslims? I suspect neither of us will know the answer to this...it's just strange...!

 

[Oafman]

I agree it's heart breaking. It's also very hard to know what to believe from the media - I am also skeptical of the high number of civilian casualties from the Gaza strip as we are relying on the Hamas run health ministry.

I ignore any numbers coming from Hamas. Stick to UN figures.

I think this conflict is a new challenge for any nation. Most civilian populations run away from incoming rockets (the Israeli's run to the shelters). Many civilian's of Gaza are encouraged (sometimes forced) to run towards to the site of an incoming rocket. How do you suggest Israel deals with this? Should they simply allow the Hamas fired rockets to keep coming?! This seems to be the only way the media will lose interest in this conflict...

It would be intolerable to have rockets raining down on your towns, but my sympathy for Israel in this regard is limited.

The big problem is that Hamas are in power. They were elected, though it would be a stretch to claim that they hold a democratic mandate today. But they do enjoy widespread support in Gaza. I'm convinced that this support is a product of the blockade. Desperate people are much more inclined to support extremist organisations - we've seen that throughout history. If Fatah were in charge of Gaza, I think we would have a chance of peace. If Gazans had a realistic hope of gaining self-determination through less violent means, I'm sure that most of them would grasp the opportunity. Israel needs to give them that hope, by provisionally agreeing that the blockade could be lifted as part of a peace deal. The longer they fail to do that, the more Gazans will feel that violence is their only option, and will continue to support Hamas.

One thing I can't understand is why thousands of "Pro-Palestinians" took to the streets of London this weekend in protest against Israel. Where are they when tens of thousands of fellow Muslims are being massacred in Syria or Iraq or Nigeria or anywhere else? Why is it they only seem to care when Israel is the perceived aggressor but there is total silence when far more are killed by other Muslims? I suspect neither of us will know the answer to this...it's just strange...!

A good question, though I do have an answer of sorts. It's because "it's worse when Jews do it". I really think it's that simple.

Assad has slaughtered tens of thousands of Muslims. The horrors committed by ISIS are well documented, and you're right, very few protests take place. But when far fewer Muslims are killed by Jewish hands, there is uproar. I guess the fact that Palestine is a more two-sided affair (most of the world denounces Assad and ISIS) also plays a part, but there's clearly double standards based on religion.

 

[Robban]

I agree it's heart breaking. It's also very hard to know what to believe from the media - I am also skeptical of the high number of civilian casualties from the Gaza strip as we are relying on the Hamas run health ministry.

I think this conflict is a new challenge for any nation. Most civilian populations run away from incoming rockets (the Israeli's run to the shelters). Many civilian's of Gaza are encouraged (sometimes forced) to run towards to the site of an incoming rocket. How do you suggest Israel deals with this? Should they simply allow the Hamas fired rockets to keep coming?! This seems to be the only way the media will lose interest in this conflict...

One thing I can't understand is why thousands of "Pro-Palestinians" took to the streets of London this weekend in protest against Israel. Where are they when tens of thousands of fellow Muslims are being massacred in Syria or Iraq or Nigeria or anywhere else? Why is it they only seem to care when Israel is the perceived aggressor but there is total silence when far more are killed by other Muslims? I suspect neither of us will know the answer to this...it's just strange...!

I,m probably alone on this, that,s ok, it is just a mild wondering in my mind from time to time.

Declaring the state of Israel, was it wrong, premature, did anyone think it would work

Something which comes back to my thoughts often is the disagreement between Abraham and Lot.

Abraham instructed his Shepards to make sure the livestock did not graze on the neighbours pastures, to respect boundaries.

Lot told his Shepards to let them graze where they wanted.

When confronted by Abraham about this, Lot replied, "Why not, the land has been promised to us, so what difference does it make, it,s ours"

Abraham said, "No, it has been promised to us, true, but not yet."

Abraham not wanting to waste Words, gave Lot first choice,
and they parted Company

This is way out for everyone I would suspect, yet it has been my guideline for Life.

 

[Danny777]

I ignore any numbers coming from Hamas. Stick to UN figures.


It would be intolerable to have rockets raining down on your towns, but my sympathy for Israel in this regard is limited.

The big problem is that Hamas are in power. They were elected, though it would be a stretch to claim that they hold a democratic mandate today. But they do enjoy widespread support in Gaza. I'm convinced that this support is a product of the blockade. Desperate people are much more inclined to support extremist organisations - we've seen that throughout history. If Fatah were in charge of Gaza, I think we would have a chance of peace. If Gazans had a realistic hope of gaining self-determination through less violent means, I'm sure that most of them would grasp the opportunity. Israel needs to give them that hope, by provisionally agreeing that the blockade could be lifted as part of a peace deal. The longer they fail to do that, the more Gazans will feel that violence is their only option, and will continue to support Hamas.


A good question, though I do have an answer of sorts. It's because "it's worse when Jews do it". I really think it's that simple.

Assad has slaughtered tens of thousands of Muslims. The horrors committed by ISIS are well documented, and you're right, very few protests take place. But when far fewer Muslims are killed by Jewish hands, there is uproar. I guess the fact that Palestine is a more two-sided affair (most of the world denounces Assad and ISIS) also plays a part, but there's clearly double standards based on religion.

What do you mean when you use the term, "blockade"?

Food and medical supplies pass through Gaza borders on a daily basis - I'm not aware of any starvation/health epidemics due to a lack of supplies. I'm also not aware of other conflict between two countries where there is a completely open border between the two - this would be unrealistic...

This blockade does not seem to be very successful - Hamas still manage to "import" tons and tons of material for the tunnels and tens of thousands of rockets. As I've said before, the "blockade" cannot be that tight and I'm sure that if Hamas wanted to smuggle extra provisions for it's population, they would find a way!

 

[Oafman]

What do you mean when you use the term, "blockade"?

Food and medical supplies pass through Gaza borders on a daily basis - I'm not aware of any starvation/health epidemics due to a lack of supplies. I'm also not aware of other conflict between two countries where there is a completely open border between the two - this would be unrealistic...

This blockade does not seem to be very successful - Hamas still manage to "import" tons and tons of material for the tunnels and tens of thousands of rockets. As I've said before, the "blockade" cannot be that tight and I'm sure that if Hamas wanted to smuggle extra provisions for it's population, they would find a way!

It's not just the Gaza-Israel border. Egypt imposes similar restrictions on their border, and the Israeli navy ensures nothing gets in or out by sea.

Gazan businesses cannot trade with the world. Imports and exports are not allowed - though some aid agencies are, as you point out, able to get in relief supplies. Which are required, because 80% of the population depend on them.

Israel will not allow Gaza to have an airport. Gazans are not free to travel to the rest of the world.

It is, by any reasonable definition, an open-air prison camp. And it's all that some younger Gazans have ever known. It's no wonder they elected an extremist government.

 

[Danny777]

It's not just the Gaza-Israel border. Egypt imposes similar restrictions on their border, and the Israeli navy ensures nothing gets in or out by sea.

Gazan businesses cannot trade with the world. Imports and exports are not allowed - though some aid agencies are, as you point out, able to get in relief supplies. Which are required, because 80% of the population depend on them.

Israel will not allow Gaza to have an airport. Gazans are not free to travel to the rest of the world.

It is, by any reasonable definition, an open-air prison camp. And it's all that some younger Gazans have ever known. It's no wonder they elected an extremist government.

I can understand why Israel won't let Gaza have an airport!

If Israel were to "open up" the borders, surely this would be a suicide mission - the situation with rockets etc is bad enough with a blockade?

Remember Hamas do not want a "two-state" solution - the only solution from their perspective is the extermination of the Jewish State. How is it possible live peacefully side by side with this?

 

[DerelictJunction]

Things like the Geneva Conventions are not "impossible standards".

What violations of the Geneva Conventions has the Israeli army perpetrated?

Stop with that "black or white" thinking already. There's a lot of gray in the world. Especially in the Israeli - Palestinian conflict. Being blind to Israeli war crimes and attrocities is not going to help anyone.

What atrocities have the Israeli troops perpetrated?

 

[Hentenza]

No amount of actions by your enemy is a good enough excuse to tell Human Rights to take a hike.

Look, I am not excuses the discrimination against Palestinians inside of Israel any more that I am excusing the discrimination against Hispanics in the US. However, I fault Hamas considerably more for their penchant of using the bodies of Palestinians as propaganda and as human shields.

 

[Hentenza]

Given the wall built around them and the blockade Hamas and Isreal have been at war all this time.

Sure but don't forget that Egypt is part of the blockade of Gaza also. The hostilities between these groups goes back quite a long time, even before the British mandate.

The war escalated at precisely the time Hamas formed a unity government with Fata after Isreal purposefully scuttled american brokered peace talks by increasing the number of settlements. I'm not gullible enough to think that Isreal isn't simply reacting to the formation of the unity government rather than the uptick in mainly impotent rocket attacks.

Israel increased the number of settlements because 1. it is their land and they should be able to use it, 2. Hamas did not negotiate in good faith. Personally I do not believe that the government of Gaza (new and old) will ever negotiate in good faith with Israel. Heck, they don't even recognize Israel as a sovereign country.