don't Boycott Israel because israel isn't a war criminal.

don't boycott Israel because israel isn't a war criminal.

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ebia

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gattaca said:
don't boycott Israel because israel isn't a war criminal. https://mobile.twitter.com/jirisan99/status/493286855542992896/photo/1 why do people keep saying that israel is a war criminal because this just isn't true? people shouldn't boycott Israel because israel isn't a war criminal.
We don't usually describe a country as being a criminal. Israel's actions, however, clearly do border on war- crimes. Whether or not they meet the test is for an international court to determine. Either way, it's a disproportionately damaging response suffered by the people of Gaza, and if boycotts are what it takes to make Israel take human rights seriously then boycotts it should be. Israel has has no qualms about making the population of Gaza suffer.
 
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Sammy-San

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We don't usually describe a country as being a criminal. Israel's actions, however, clearly do border on war- crimes. Whether or not they meet the test is for an international court to determine. Either way, it's a disproportionately damaging response suffered by the people of Gaza, and if boycotts are what it takes to make Israel take human rights seriously then boycotts it should be. Israel has has no qualms about making the population of Gaza suffer.

I agree. the only reason israel is attacking gaza is because 3 kids died, but attacking gaza as a response to that makes zero sense. hundreds of civilians have died in the past few weeks, because of israel's attacks on Gaza.
 
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Zeek

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I agree. the only reason israel is attacking gaza is because 3 kids died, but attacking gaza as a response to that makes zero sense. hundreds of civilians have died in the past few weeks, because of israel's attacks on Gaza.

Don't be naive....Israel is attacking Gaza because Gaza have been lobbing rockets indescriminately into Israel and increasing their attempts to put constant terror into Israeli citizens with the hope they might kill some.

Israel didn't want this conflict, but it is just as well it went ahead (providential) as they have uncovered plans by Hamas to potentially murder thousands of Israeli citizens, men, women and children.
 
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Hentenza

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I agree. the only reason israel is attacking gaza is because 3 kids died, but attacking gaza as a response to that makes zero sense. hundreds of civilians have died in the past few weeks, because of israel's attacks on Gaza.

^_^^_^ No rockets or mortar continually fired at Israel, no suicide bombings, no acts of terrorism against Israel, no need for Israel to have the Iron dome, etc. etc., right?
 
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variant

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Don't be naive....Israel is attacking Gaza because Gaza have been lobbing rockets indescriminately into Israel and increasing their attempts to put constant terror into Israeli citizens with the hope they might kill some.

The sequence of real time events says otherwise.

Hamas started bombarding Israel in retaliation after hundreds of their members were jailed over the kidnapping thing.

^_^^_^ No rockets or mortar continually fired at Israel, no suicide bombings, no acts of terrorism against Israel, no need for Israel to have the Iron dome, etc. etc., right?

There was a fairly effective cease fire in place before Isreal arrested a huge number of people when searching for the kidnapped children.

You guys can pretend that Isreal didn't escalate this to war but it was plain as day.
 
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Hentenza

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The sequence of real time events says otherwise.

Hamas started bombarding Israel in retaliation after hundreds of their members were jailed over the kidnapping thing.



There was a fairly effective cease fire in place before Isreal arrested a huge number of people when searching for the kidnapped children.

You guys can pretend that Isreal didn't escalate this to war but it was plain as day.

Since operation cast lead in 2009, Hamas has continued its rocket and mortar attacks on Israel. In 2010 Hamas shot 150 rockets and 215 mortars into Israel In 2011, Hamas shot 680 rockets and mortars into Israel. In 2012, Hamas shot 2257 rockets and mortars into Israel. In 2013, there was a significant reduction as Hamas shot 53 rockets and 16 mortars into Israel. In 2014, prior to July when the ground operation began, Hamas had escalated the rocket and mortars attacks on Israel with 191 rocket and mortar attacks.

Why does Hamas has fired and continues to fire rockets at Israel? The killing of the three Israelites and the subsequent killing of the Palestinian boy served to intensify an already intense situation. However, the continued rocket and mortar attacks by the terrorist entity called Hamas is the primary issue that precipitated the ground operations by Israel.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Since operation cast lead in 2009, Hamas has continued its rocket and mortar attacks on Israel. In 2010 Hamas shot 150 rockets and 215 mortars into Israel In 2011, Hamas shot 680 rockets and mortars into Israel. In 2012, Hamas shot 2257 rockets and mortars into Israel. In 2013, there was a significant reduction as Hamas shot 53 rockets and 16 mortars into Israel. In 2014, prior to July when the ground operation began, Hamas had escalated the rocket and mortars attacks on Israel with 191 rocket and mortar attacks.

Why does Hamas has fired and continues to fire rockets at Israel? The killing of the three Israelites and the subsequent killing of the Palestinian boy served to intensify an already intense situation. However, the continued rocket and mortar attacks by the terrorist entity called Hamas is the primary issue that precipitated the ground operations by Israel.

No amount of actions by your enemy is a good enough excuse to tell Human Rights to take a hike.
 
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Zeek

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No amount of actions by your enemy is a good enough excuse to tell Human Rights to take a hike.

Many of Israels enemies play the Human Rights card, especially groups like the Palestine Solidarity Campaign (PSC) and the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions groups (BDS)...they all want to hold Israel to impossible standards, and insist they know better than the people who were elected to run the only democracy in the Middle East, how to do their job.

Most of the people who are constantly opposed to Israel, latch onto any nuance of wrong-doing and are prepared to believe every criticism against Israel without checking the facts or the source...they actively seek out ammunition from media reports that will confirm their bias and justify their position.

This is particularly noticeable on these Boards and it is regrettable that so many Christians in particular, actively work against Israel and by default side with her enemies, especially bolstering the Islamic propaganda initiative...hence the term useful idiots that has been bandied about.
 
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quatona

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Many of Israels enemies play the Human Rights card, especially groups like the Palestine Solidarity Campaign (PSC) and the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions groups (BDS)...they all want to hold Israel to impossible standards, and insist they know better than the people who were elected to run the only democracy in the Middle East, how to do their job.

Most of the people who are constantly opposed to Israel, latch onto any nuance of wrong-doing and are prepared to believe every criticism against Israel without checking the facts or the source...they actively seek out ammunition from media reports that will confirm their bias and justify their position.

This is particularly noticeable on these Boards and it is regrettable that so many Christians in particular, actively work against Israel and by default side with her enemies, especially bolstering the Islamic propaganda initiative...hence the term useful idiots that has been bandied about.
Now that you´ve got all those insinuations and preconceptions off your chest and had the opportunity to argue ad hominem and poison the well to your heart´s desire - how do you respond to those who aren´t Israel´s enemies yet point out violations of Human Rights committed by the Israel government?
 
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DogmaHunter

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Many of Israels enemies play the Human Rights card, especially groups like the Palestine Solidarity Campaign (PSC) and the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions groups (BDS)...they all want to hold Israel to impossible standards

Things like the Geneva Conventions are not "impossible standards".

, and insist they know better than the people who were elected to run the only democracy in the Middle East, how to do their job.

Elected officials of a democracy aren't capable of engaging in war crimes?
Btw, I have a bridge for sale. You interested?

Most of the people who are constantly opposed to Israel, latch onto any nuance of wrong-doing and are prepared to believe every criticism against Israel without checking the facts or the source...they actively seek out ammunition from media reports that will confirm their bias and justify their position.

Stop with that "black or white" thinking already. There's a lot of gray in the world. Especially in the Israeli - Palestinian conflict. Being blind to Israeli war crimes and attrocities is not going to help anyone.

This is particularly noticeable on these Boards and it is regrettable that so many Christians in particular, actively work against Israel and by default side with her enemies, especially bolstering the Islamic propaganda initiative...hence the term useful idiots that has been bandied about.

The only idiot thing here is you claiming that one either HAS to side with Israel for 100% or one HAS to side with Palestine for 100%.
Again with the black or white thinking...

Here are my thoughts: both sides engage in horribly immoral practices. As far as I am concerned, it's not at all clear to me which side I am supposed to be calling "the good guys".
 
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Zeek

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Now that you´ve got all those insinuations and preconceptions off your chest and had the opportunity to argue ad hominem and poison the well to your heart´s desire - how do you respond to those who aren´t Israel´s enemies yet point out violations of Human Rights committed by the Israel government?

I take each accusation on its own merit...generally that means I have to place the accusation within a time-frame and a context.

Take for example the rocket/mortar attack on the UN building....everyone who loathes Israel immediately used it to condemn Israel, and yet it is not clear precisely who was responsible. Just like the so-called massacre in Jenin years ago...hugely inflated figures were claimed, the damage was done in the media, everyone condemned Israel and yet the reality was different.
 
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Zeek

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Originally Posted by Zeek
Many of Israels enemies play the Human Rights card, especially groups like the Palestine Solidarity Campaign (PSC) and the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions groups (BDS)...they all want to hold Israel to impossible standards
Things like the Geneva Conventions are not "impossible standards".

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander....Hamas are commiting a double war crime firing from civilian areas into civilian areas...that is usually brushed quickly aside in everyones rush to focus on the dead Gazan civilians and the immense efforts Israel makes in avoiding these casualties is also made light of.

Here in the UK Jewish owned businesses are tagetted by the BDS and PSC...they try to put across a message about human rights, but their real motive is a call for the deconstruction of Israel...even their poster boy Norman Finkelstein called them out on their deceit.

Norman Finkelstein Slams BDS, One-State Solution and Palestinians 'Right of Return' - YouTube

, and insist they know better than the people who were elected to run the only democracy in the Middle East, how to do their job.

Elected officials of a democracy aren't capable of engaging in war crimes?
Btw, I have a bridge for sale. You interested?

There is far less chance of an elected and functioning democracy like Israel committing war crimes than some fascist Islamic nation...Israelis themselves will be the first to condemn their own government....but the vast majority of people so quick to tell Israel what to do are either far left anarchists and Marxist types or come from Islamic nations where freedom of speech and equality are merely a dream, and yet they want to put Israel to rights...I have faced off to them in the street on dozens of occasions and continue to do so on a weekly basis.

Most of the people who are constantly opposed to Israel, latch onto any nuance of wrong-doing and are prepared to believe every criticism against Israel without checking the facts or the source...they actively seek out ammunition from media reports that will confirm their bias and justify their position.

Stop with that "black or white" thinking already. There's a lot of gray in the world. Especially in the Israeli - Palestinian conflict. Being blind to Israeli war crimes and attrocities is not going to help anyone.

This is directly from personal experiece including time living in Israel ...repeating the mantra 'Israeli war crimes and attrocities' is not going to establish it as fact. I made it perfectly clear that I am talking of a certain hroup of people who NEVER give Israelis a chance and ALWAYS look for ways to condemn them....I was not saying that people should never criticise Israel and yes things are often difficult to call in some of the situations there.

This is particularly noticeable on these Boards and it is regrettable that so many Christians in particular, actively work against Israel and by default side with her enemies, especially bolstering the Islamic propaganda initiative...hence the term useful idiots that has been bandied about.

The only idiot thing here is you claiming that one either HAS to side with Israel for 100% or one HAS to side with Palestine for 100%.
Again with the black or white thinking...

I have never said anything of the sort, especially as I don't even acknowledge a 'Palestine'. Many well meaning people do the Islamists job for them by constantly condemning Israel, calling for boycotts and fighting a 'Jihad' in the media...they laugh at our Western gullibility.


Here are my thoughts: both sides engage in horribly immoral practices. As far as I am concerned, it's not at all clear to me which side I am supposed to be calling "the good guys".

Some of the Israeli actions are bad at times, some of the decisions that are made are contrary to what I consider moral etc...but the bottom line is that one group of people wants to eradicate the other and it is not the Israelis...they would gladly lay down their weapons, but they have wised up since WW11, and are never again going to be lambs to the slaughter...despite rulings from the UN, the International community, the International Law Courts, the US or anyone else.

Shalom.
 
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variant

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Since operation cast lead in 2009, Hamas has continued its rocket and mortar attacks on Israel. In 2010 Hamas shot 150 rockets and 215 mortars into Israel In 2011, Hamas shot 680 rockets and mortars into Israel. In 2012, Hamas shot 2257 rockets and mortars into Israel. In 2013, there was a significant reduction as Hamas shot 53 rockets and 16 mortars into Israel. In 2014, prior to July when the ground operation began, Hamas had escalated the rocket and mortars attacks on Israel with 191 rocket and mortar attacks.

Why does Hamas has fired and continues to fire rockets at Israel? The killing of the three Israelites and the subsequent killing of the Palestinian boy served to intensify an already intense situation. However, the continued rocket and mortar attacks by the terrorist entity called Hamas is the primary issue that precipitated the ground operations by Israel.

Given the wall built around them and the blockade Hamas and Isreal have been at war all this time.

The war escalated at precisely the time Hamas formed a unity government with Fata after Isreal purposefully scuttled american brokered peace talks by increasing the number of settlements. I'm not gullible enough to think that Isreal isn't simply reacting to the formation of the unity government rather than the uptick in mainly impotent rocket attacks.
 
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Danny777

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We don't usually describe a country as being a criminal. Israel's actions, however, clearly do border on war- crimes. Whether or not they meet the test is for an international court to determine. Either way, it's a disproportionately damaging response suffered by the people of Gaza, and if boycotts are what it takes to make Israel take human rights seriously then boycotts it should be. Israel has has no qualms about making the population of Gaza suffer.

I go along with this as long as you don't have a problem with boycotts against the population of Gaza for the blatant "war-crimes" committed by Hamas?

Do you think it's ethical to use boycotts against the residents of Gaza to encourage Hamas to take human rights more seriously?
 
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DogmaHunter

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Whats good for the goose is good for the gander....

No Zeek. 2 wrongs don't make a right.
I guess this also means that you acknowledge that Israel engages in war crimes? It even looks like you approve of it as well, is that correct?

Hamas are commiting a double war crime firing from civilian areas into civilian areas...

Which again is not an excuse to go ahead and commit war crimes Zeek.

that is usually brushed quickly aside in everyones rush to focus on the dead Gazan civilians and the immense efforts Israel makes in avoiding these casualties is also made light of.

I don't brush it aside. I think both are engaging in horrible practices. As I've said in the post you are replying to.

Here in the UK Jewish owned businesses are tagetted by the BDS and PSC...they try to put across a message about human rights, but their real motive is a call for the deconstruction of Israel...even their poster boy Norman Finkelstein called them out on their deceit.

Still not an excuse Zeek.

There is far less chance of an elected and functioning democracy like Israel committing war crimes than some fascist Islamic nation...Israelis themselves will be the first to condemn their own government....

Probabilities are not important when it is a fact that the improbable happened.

but the vast majority of people so quick to tell Israel what to do are either far left anarchists and Marxist types or come from Islamic nations where freedom of speech and equality are merely a dream, and yet they want to put Israel to rights...

Ow? So... Am I one of these "anarchists" or "marxist" types?

I have faced off to them in the street on dozens of occasions and continue to do so on a weekly basis.

You are such a hero.
Most of the people who are constantly opposed to Israel, latch onto any nuance of wrong-doing and are prepared to believe every criticism against Israel without checking the facts or the source...they actively seek out ammunition from media reports that will confirm their bias and justify their position.

Are you talking about me?


This is particularly noticeable on these Boards and it is regrettable that so many Christians in particular, actively work against Israel(1*) and by default side with her enemies(2*), especially bolstering the Islamic propaganda initiative...hence the term useful idiots that has been bandied about.

1* is showing your true colors. Clearly there is religious motivation behind your support for Israel. Off course, religious tribalism and conflicting mythology is casting a big shadow on the region there and heavily fuels the intensity of the conflict.

This means religion is clouding your judgement.

2* is simply false. I don't need to pick a side in this conflict. Like I said, I can't call any sides "the good guys".

I have never said anything of the sort, especially as I don't even acknowledge a 'Palestine'.

Wauw.

Many well meaning people do the Islamists job for them by constantly condemning Israel, calling for boycotts and fighting a 'Jihad' in the media...they laugh at our Western gullibility.

I love how you keep coming back to your religious motivation.

Some of the Israeli actions are bad at times, some of the decisions that are made are contrary to what I consider moral etc...but the bottom line is that one group of people wants to eradicate the other and it is not the Israelis...they would gladly lay down their weapons, but they have wised up since WW11, and are never again going to be lambs to the slaughter...despite rulings from the UN, the International community, the International Law Courts, the US or anyone else.

Exactly. "The good guys" are the ones that cooporate, work towards peace , abide to international conventions and do their best to comply to resolutions.

"The good guys" are not those that do whatever they, when they want, no matter what anyone else thinks. In fact, that sounds more like "anarchists".
 
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IMO, I say let these guys duke it out, because this isn't their last run at this, nor will it be the last.

No one outside these two groups is going to stop this from happening again, nor will all the animosity disappear to make it all stop in the future.

Not unlike an NHL hockey fight, were the linesman actually let the guys go at it, until it gets out of hand, let these guys do the same. When one doesn't think anyone is coming to your rescue, one tends to think a little longer about going into battle.
 
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