Does white privilege exist in the US?

rturner76 · Dec 4, 2020

Sketcher said:
I see where you are coming from, and I understand that many drug dealers do so out of economic desperation. But I have a couple of hangups about what you proposed as worded:

1) Drug dealers often ruin people's lives. A relative of mine got involved with one, and eventually got on cocaine, and went off the rails with cocaine, did not take care of herself, and died, leaving a young son behind. Primarily, that is her fault, but remembering Genesis 3:14 and Mark 9:42, there has to be some penalty on the dealer for that. It needn't be death, but having a direct hand in ruining a life like that needs to be punished.

2) How many dealers act fraudulently or unscrupulously? If you take a fraudulent or unscrupulous person who was a drug dealer and vocationally retrain that person to be a shopkeeper, then you still have a fraudulent or unscrupulous shopkeeper. Many of us do not want to do business with fraudulent or unscrupulous shopkeepers, so there would have to be more than just vocational training for these offenders, and I don't know that the state can provide that.

I can't really argue with what you are saying here. Dealing drugs is immoral and giving someone a vocation does not remove the person's immorality. Also you are correct in that the government really can't teach morality effectively.

There is another wrinkle to sending dealers and addicts to prison, especially juvenile detention centers. Some people will go to prison for a relatively small drug business as a young man or a juvenile. For many, the only option to avoid being preyed upon by other gang members or predators, in general, is to join up with the gang themselves. They need the protection to get through their time locked up without being victimized and once your in, there's no getting out.

This does not excuse gang members from their crimes but it causes a situation where a novice criminal goes to jail or prison, and they come out of lock-up with a Bachelor's in criminal behavior, learning better ways to scam, ways to better avoid law enforcement, and a new network of criminals to associate with.

When I think about what I have actually seen be effective for many but not all young offenders it has been when the offender is offered boot camp instead of prison or juvie. I have seen boot camps turn around a lot more men than prison. they learn discipline, often a trade, and the biggest thing is they learn how to be subordinate and respect the chain of command. Most go to prison with obviously no respect for authority and that is, in my opinion, the biggest obstacle to rehabilitation. I know it's not feasible to send all offenders to boot camps but it's something I would like to see used more often for kids that show some potential.

There is no magic bullet for poverty and crime but the truth is, fathers staying home and raising their children with a wife would do more to curtail poverty and crime than any social program or law enforcement. Men and women have no commitment to the family unit like they did in the old days. It was like even if mom and dad couldn't stand each other, you stayed together for the kids. Nowadays father's are being reduced to disposable sperm doners

BNR32FAN · Dec 4, 2020

SilverBear said:
and that is what the statistics were - evidence

Well it wouldn’t be hard to prove. Take a stroll thru 5th ward in Houston Tx at 2am then take a stroll thru any trailer park in Houston at 2am and see how far you get. You could also count how many gunshots you hear at night in each location. I’ve lived in both areas. When I walked to and from school in 5th ward I paid close attention to every glass bottle in the ditch and along side of the road or anything that I could use as a weapon to defend myself because defending myself became all to common when I lived there. My first day of school two kids got in a fight and one of them pulled a razor knife box cutter out. The last day I attended school there a guy put a knife to my throat in the restroom and I never went back. And that was only junior high. I highly doubt I would’ve survived high school. So perhaps you were fortunate enough to never witness what really takes place in the hood or the mentality of a large percentage of blacks who live there. If you jack somebody up or kill someone that means your cool, your tough. Getting good grades, going to college, getting a job, that’s for suckas. Making money illegally is what earns you respect. Pimpin, hustling, stealing, gangbangin, and dealing, these are the preferred methods of making a living in the hood for many blacks. Maybe not the majority but pretty close to it. And the honest people who live there know they have to be prepared to defend themselves at all times. You always gotta be lookin over your shoulder. I never once experienced that any other place in my life except in the hood. I’ve never seen a trailer park that I was too scared to walk outside at night. I’ve also never seen a hood that I would dare to walk through at night.

BNR32FAN · Dec 4, 2020

Here’s a clear example of how predominant racism is in America today. 12% of the American population is black 62% is white and yet we elected a black president twice. Whites out number blacks 5/1 and yet Americans still elected a black president not just once but twice. If racism against blacks was so predominant in America as so many people claim then Obama clearly wouldn’t have been elected twice.

bèlla · Dec 4, 2020

98cwitr said:
What we can say is that crime, single mother homes, and education levels ALL play a detrimental part in overcoming poverty, and ALL of those things are based on personal and individual choices, and have literally nothing to do with the color of someone's skin.

I have no issue with anyone's choices. But don't blame me for the consequences of your decision. It's not my responsibility to fix your mess. We need to own our junk.

The quotes really drove home your point.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

According to The Millionaire Next Door, the most important decision you'll make (other than God), is your companion. So choose wisely.

BNR32FAN · Dec 4, 2020

98cwitr said:
Documented is one thing, assumed and presumed is quite another. If it's documented, show us the documentation. The data and statistics is as it is only because we are classifying people by race, but as discussed it does not do the argument or premise any justice by doing so. If we had ways of classifying culture, that'd be more telling, but we don't. What we can say is that crime, single mother homes, and education levels ALL play a detrimental part in overcoming poverty, and ALL of those things are based on personal and individual choices, and have literally nothing to do with the color of someone's skin.

Three ways to ensure you don't live poor forever:

1. Don't have babies out of wedlock
2. Graduate high school
3. Don't commit felonies

Not to suggest a person following the above wouldn't be poor during acute points in life, but following the above means a person can bounce back more quickly. To achieve these things, parents must model the above to their children. That said, there are certain cultures who reject all 3, and those cultures transcend racial groups.

Correlation does not equal causation.

I really don’t see what single mother homes has to do with this issue. I think this aspect is irrelevant.

98cwitr · Dec 4, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
I really don’t see what single mother homes has to do with this issue. I think this aspect is irrelevant.

It's quite clear

Robert Samuelson: Single Parenthood And Poverty, The Undeniable Connection

Poverty and Single Mothers in the New York Times | National Review

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...b0121a-2942-11e8-b79d-f3d931db7f68_story.html

I came from a single parent home, and knew that when I was ready to start a family I need to be very careful who I decided to procreate with (ie: marry). Divorce would not be an option, so I needed to be pragmatic and intentional. Children need to be raised by two loving parents. We must be very choosy who we form that union with.

GreatLakes4Ever · Dec 4, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
Here’s a clear example of how predominant racism is in America today. 12% of the American population is black 62% is white and yet we elected a black president twice. Whites out number blacks 5/1 and yet Americans still elected a black president not just once but twice. If racism against blacks was so predominant in America as so many people claim then Obama clearly wouldn’t have been elected twice.

Based on those statistics we should have had at least 7 Black presidents in our history. Not just Obama. Even if I tip the scale in your favor and we only count from the Civil War on we still should have had about 5.

98cwitr · Dec 4, 2020

bèlla said:
I have no issue with anyone's choices. But don't blame me for the consequences of your decision. It's not my responsibility to fix your mess. We need to own our junk.

The quotes really drove home your point.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

View attachment 290018

According to The Millionaire Next Door, the most important decision you'll make (other than God), is your companion. So choose wisely.

View attachment 290019

Very true, but we also cannot be silent on the issue (we're not being and that's good!) because bad parents having bad children is BAD for society as a whole.

BNR32FAN · Dec 4, 2020

98cwitr said:
It's quite clear

Robert Samuelson: Single Parenthood And Poverty, The Undeniable Connection

Poverty and Single Mothers in the New York Times | National Review

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...b0121a-2942-11e8-b79d-f3d931db7f68_story.html

I came from a single parent home, and knew that when I was ready to start a family I need to be very careful who I decided to procreate with (ie: marry). Divorce would not be an option, so I needed to be pragmatic and intentional. Children need to be raised by two loving parents. We must be very choosy who we form that union with.

I don’t disagree that having both parents can be beneficial but it can also be just as counterproductive if one or both of the parents are a bad influence. I think a single parent who is a positive influence is better than a married couple with one parent being a bad influence.

BNR32FAN · Dec 4, 2020

GreatLakes4Ever said:
Based on those statistics we should have had at least 7 Black presidents in our history. Not just Obama. Even if I tip the scale in your favor and we only count from the Civil War on we still should have had about 5.

I didn’t said that racism was never predominant in America. I said racism is not predominant in America today.

GreatLakes4Ever · Dec 4, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
I didn’t said that racism was never predominant in America. I said racism is not predominant in America today.

The only one non-white president in 232 years and he faced a whole movement claiming he was born in Kenya. And that wasn’t even a decade ago.

Lord Give Me A Sign · Dec 4, 2020

Jipsah said:
So the conclusion must be that the gummint is randonly arresting and imprisoning Black makes, yes? Hmmmm...
So is the solution to arrest more whites or fewer Blacks?

What if they aren't? What if it's it's simply that Black makes commit >30% of the crimes? We can quibble about the precise numbers, but Blacks commit arrestable crimes at many times the rate of whites. The rate of Black on Black crimes alone make that fact frightenly clear. Blaming it on "racist judges" is a fig leaf, and in fact is saying in essence "Blacks aren't bad, whites are bad!" and is just as racist as blaming all crime on Blacks.

As the shrinks say, the fiorst step in recovery is admitting the problem. There's a big problem in the Black community, and at center it's cultural. There is no coherent structure there any more. The Black family is shot (whites are heading that way as well, but let's peel one tater at a time) religion has lost most of its influence, and the popular culture applauds and encourages bad behavior. The results are readily apparent. The general response - chant "White Supremacy", "Institutional Racism", "White Privilege", ad infinitum. "Blacks aren't bad, whites are bad!" Two edged sword, promoting racial division while insuring nothing is done to actual causes. Just denounce the Bad Guy du jour.

I don't think so. There are a great many places where people live in comparative poverty and where crimes of violence are rare. I do, however, believe that drug laws should be done away with as incentives for criminal activity.

In other words, the culture promotes, or at least tolerates, criminal activitu. Now we're approaching the nub of the thing.

I reject "class" as a factor, since in the US "class" is a simply a matter of who has money. The problem as I see it is culture. It isn't about race, pitting one set of phenotypes against another. It isn't about "class", which is an especially meaningless term in the US (I am biracial (white/Asian) old Christian man, relatively affluent, college-educated, and living in a poor part of the rural South. What "class" am I?) It is, as I see it, about culture. Having a foot in two different cultures makes we aware of that sort of thing, and it all seems entirely obvious to me.

What's to be done? First, admit the bloody problem! Black people are slaughtering each other in the streets, and it isn't the fault of whites or Asians or Latinos or any other convenient scapegoat. Black children are going to school and leaving them uneducated, not because of racism, but because the prevailing culture amongst Blacks places no value in education, and there's no family structure to provide discipline. I can run on and on, but I reckon you've gotten the drift by now.

Of course, this is where the Correct response is to denounce me as a racist White (and/or Asian) Supremacist, to blame Institutional Racism for all the ills facing the Black community on Old White Christian Men, and insuring that nothing at all is done that might help Black kids in the US to stand a fighting chance prospering in this country.

I do agree that culture is one of the biggest issues. Rap music has been weaponized against those who listen to it. It glorifies all the wrong things

I dont believe in racial superiority. I believe what the bible says, that we are all created in the image of God. But i do my best to put myself in the shoes of a child who is born into both poverty and the culture. Of course as they grow older, they are responsible for the decisions they make. But who am i to judge? If i was born into those circumstances, whose to say i wouldnt have joined a gang or ended up in jail?

Self rightousness blocks people from seeing this, its a hindrance. Its a natural tendency to say "I would have made the right decisions and stayed away from all the negativity." But none of us know that, and only God can give someone the gifts to thrive in such circumstances. We arent self made, we are made by God and given unique gifts before we entered our mothers womb

So instead of being prideful about it, i choose to put myself in the shoes of a child growing up in a very negative culture and poverty. That leads me to have deep sympathy and compassion for the people who i have spoken about

Ana the Ist · Dec 4, 2020

rturner76 said:
I guess the "problem" is that in a system like that, it can be more difficult for people of color to be considered for those upper management positions. Not necessarily because of a desire to slap people down but because like I say, the comfort with and relatability of people who share the same background. It's not really a problem the government can fix beyond just enforcing existing civil rights laws which are often difficult to prosecute.

It's not fair is the "problem" but I do understand that life is anything but fair.

Life isn't fair...

Let's say that you're describing the way things are and honestly, I'm not sure that's true. You're right, life isn't fair.

Let's imagine a solution where we force companies, schools, etc., to put people in those upper level positions because we believe they should be there....well then we're just being unfair to someone else, aren't we?

Someone who would have gotten that position otherwise. It doesn't matter what race or sex or gender they are.

The difference is that right now ....you suspect that it's an unfair system, that people are probably being discriminated against by race. If we change it....we'll know that it's an unfair system where people are discriminated against by race.

BNR32FAN · Dec 4, 2020

GreatLakes4Ever said:
The only one non-white president in 232 years and he faced a whole movement claiming he was born in Kenya. And that wasn’t even a decade ago.

Every president suffers scrutiny. Look at Trump, if a meteor fell out of the sky & injured a baby kitten they’d blame Trump for it and 232 presidents is irrelevant because, now pay close attention here, I NEVER SAID THAT RACISM WAS NEVER PREDOMINANT IN AMERICA. I said racism is not predominant in America TODAY.

98cwitr · Dec 4, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
I don’t disagree that having both parents can be beneficial but it can also be just as counterproductive if one or both of the parents are a bad influence. I think a single parent who is a positive influence is better than a married couple with one parent being a bad influence.

That's as nuanced as every individual case. I can agree though, as mentioned earlier in the thread: It is better to have a poor, single mom who pours herself into ensuring her child's success and teaches them moral values rather than having two rich alcoholic parents that beat their child and care nothing for their education or well being.

Bottomline, statistically, having two parents in the home is by FAR a better metric for a child's success, not to mention the financial benefits and having extra support as a parent/spouse. My wife and I are raising two young children, and neither of us can imagine having to do this on our own, or having our children being raised by hired strangers. The point of this thread though is that this nuclear family setup has nothing to do with "whiteness" and everything to do with common sense. It has nothing to do with race, but a lot to do with culture. What is troubling to me is that many of my male peers still take the stance of raising children is "woman's work" and are not involved at the level that is required for proper fatherhood (in my opinion) to foster successful children; this again transcends race. Dads need to be active with their children, teaching and instructing, as God intended.

Proverbs 23:24
The father of a righteous child has great joy; a man who fathers a wise son rejoices in him.

Ephesians 6:4
Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.

Hebrews 12:7
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father?

Without fathers:

Job 24:9
The fatherless child is snatched from the breast; the infant of the poor is seized for a debt.

Ana the Ist · Dec 5, 2020

GreatLakes4Ever said:
Based on those statistics we should have had at least 7 Black presidents in our history.

What kind of nonsense statistics are you talking about?

disciple Clint · Dec 5, 2020

SilverBear said:
rising out of poverty is exceptional uncommon for anyone regardless or race.

So what evidence do you have of this victim mentality actually keeping people in poverty? Only 4 of whites are able to escape poverty...do they have the victim mentality you are going on about?

Do you think that self defeating attitudes are limited to minorities?

SilverBear · Dec 5, 2020

98cwitr said:
That's as nuanced as every individual case. I can agree though, as mentioned earlier in the thread: It is better to have a poor, single mom who pours herself into ensuring her child's success and teaches them moral values rather than having two rich alcoholic parents that beat their child and care nothing for their education or well being.

Bottomline, statistically, having two parents in the home is by FAR a better metric for a child's success, not to mention the financial benefits and having extra support as a parent/spouse. My wife and I are raising two young children, and neither of us can imagine having to do this on our own, or having our children being raised by hired strangers. The point of this thread though is that this nuclear family setup has nothing to do with "whiteness" and everything to do with common sense. It has nothing to do with race, but a lot to do with culture. What is troubling to me is that many of my male peers still take the stance of raising children is "woman's work" and are not involved at the level that is required for proper fatherhood (in my opinion) to foster successful children; this again transcends race. Dads need to be active with their children, teaching and instructing, as God intended.

common sense says that extended families would be far superior to nuclear families

Research supports this to some extent. But research also shows that the difference between kids raised in two parent families and single parent families disappears when economics are controlled for. SO its really about financial security rather than number of parents.

Cooper, M., Pugh, A.J. Families Across the Income Spectrum: A Decade in Review 2020 Journal of Marriage and Family
Browne, A.P., Battle, J.Black Family Structure and Educational Outcomes: the Role of Household Structure and Intersectionality 2018 Journal of African American Studies
Amato P et al Single-parent households and children’s educational achievement: A state-level analysis 2015 Journal of Social Science Research

KCfromNC · Dec 5, 2020

98cwitr said:
Documented is one thing, assumed and presumed is quite another. If it's documented, show us the documentation.

Glad you asked - but I already posted an example of such in post 56.

For some reason various posts seem to be ignoring it. Or blaming the victim.

rturner76 · Dec 6, 2020

Ana the Ist said:
Life isn't fair...

Let's say that you're describing the way things are and honestly, I'm not sure that's true. You're right, life isn't fair.

Let's imagine a solution where we force companies, schools, etc., to put people in those upper level positions because we believe they should be there....well then we're just being unfair to someone else, aren't we?

Someone who would have gotten that position otherwise. It doesn't matter what race or sex or gender they are.

The difference is that right now ....you suspect that it's an unfair system, that people are probably being discriminated against by race. If we change it....we'll know that it's an unfair system where people are discriminated against by race.

You are correct sir, that's why I say life is unfair. Affirmative action is as harmful as it is helpful. Companies that practice it will always have resentful employees and there will always be a cloud hanging over the ones who benefit from it.

I'm not advocating a government solution to the "unfairness" of upper management and CEOs in large companies being mostly white. The constitution does not guarantee "fairness" as a right, Equal is not the same as fair. What I do advocate for is that people in the high up positions that control a large number of people's employment just be aware of their tendency to hire or promote people who are more like them, challenge themselves to really seek the most qualified person based on merit, and recognize the benefits of a diverse workforce. Diverse being of different races, ages, genders, and so on.

There is something to be said for hiring people who you can relate to. You may likely have a better idea of how to communicate with them and manage them. There is also something to be said for hiring a diverse workforce who can meet the needs of a more diverse clientele or managers who can relate to a larger number of different kinds of people in the rank and file.

Change hearts and minds instead of laws.

Does white privilege exist in the US?

Does white privilege exist in the US?

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