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Does the TRINITY doctrine CONCUR with John 17:3?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Aug 18, 2001.

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  1. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Friends,

    A post in the thread "Is John 17:3 true?" states that the Trinity doctrine FITS perfectly with John 17:3.

    I may not be as intelligent as anyone in this board but I can't see how te Trinity Doctrine is NOT contrary or opposite John 17:3.

    John 17:3 is Jesus speaking and identifying the Father as the only true God. In any language, this means to me that there is only one true God and that only one true God is the Father only (one God in one person).

    The Trinity Doctrine states that there is only one God in the person(s) of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (only one God in three persons).

    Can Trinitarians explain to me in a straightforward manner how they can believe John 17:3 to be true yet also believe that the Trinity Doctrine to be also true?

    Ed
     
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  2. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    Well, since Jesus is God and claims to be God, then since Jesus identifies the Father as God too, then there you have Jesus proving there is more than one "person" who is God.
     
  3. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Josephus,

    You wrote:


    You say Jesus is God. But Jesus did not say he is God. Neither do the Apostles say he is God. The truth is: Jesus says he is a man (John 8:40) and the Apostles say he is a man (Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5).

    Like the Pharisees, you falsely accuse Jesus of claiming to be God. What did Jesus say or do that convinced the Pharisees that he was making himself God? He broke the Sabbath and said God was his Father (John 5:1:cool: . In John 10:36, Jesus proves that the Pharisees thought he was blaspheming (claiming to be God or equal to God) when he said "I am the son of God." Thus, YOU have NOT provided any Biblical proof that Jesus ever claimed to be God.

    You say that "Jesus identifies the Father as God TOO" which to you means that Jesus is proving that there is more than 'one person' who is God.

    This is an intentional FALSEHOOD Josephus! Your statement is CONTRARY to what John 17:3 says. According to John 17:3, Jesus is saying: "...that they may know YOU (meaning the Father), the ONLY true GOD..." Jesus DID NOT say "the Father is God TOO!"

    So far, you have not provided any Biblical proof that the Trinity doctrine concurs with John 17:3.

    Thus, since John 17:3 is true because it is God's word and was spoken by Jesus himself who is the way, the TRUTH and the life, the Trinity doctrine is FALSE!

    Is there any othre explanation out there?

    Ed
     
  4. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic


    Jesus did too!
    John 8:58 "Before Abraham was, I AM." There is only one I AM - God.

    But I also believe Jesus was a man, just like you believe. Thefore scripture to prove Jesus was a man will only make me agree with you more and more on this point. But I believe in addition to his manhood that Jesus was and is God because Jesus and his disciples claimed that too (Phil 2:13). No one can be equal to God unless they are God himself - because scripture says there is no equal to God. Well if there is no equal to God, and Jesus is God's equal as Phil 2:13 says, well then either Paul was a liar or Jesus is simply God.



    Yes. The bible is a lie. That the only other explanation.
     
  5. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Josephus,



    Let's not get away from the topic my friend. I have heard this argument before and my concern is how can this "interpretation" concur with John 17:3? Jesus says " YOU (meaning the Father) are the true God. How can Jesus imply by saying "I AM" that he is also God? Are you saying that Jesus is a liar or a pretender? Are you suggesting tht your interpretation of what Jesus meant by saying "I AM" can make John 17:3 false?

    You wrote:


    I repeat. Let's not get away from the topic my friend. I have heard this argument before and my concern is how can this "interpretation" concur with John 17:3? Jesus says " YOU (meaning the Father) are the true God. How can Paul, Christ's disciple imply that Christ is also God? Are you saying that apostle Paul did not believe what Jesus told the Father? Are you suggesting that we must believe your interpretation of what apostle Paul meant rather than believe what Jesus clearly said in John 17:3?



    Are you suggesting that the Bible is a lie and the Catholic doctrine that Jesus is God is the truth? Please give me a categorical yes or no answer.

    Ed
     
  6. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    +21
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    Married
    US-Republican
    Here ya go Ed:

    First,a matrix of the trinity I will use belos:

    God=IAM (A+B+C)

    The Father=A
    The Son=B
    The Spirit=C

    17:1 These words spake Jesus , and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father[A], the hour is come; glorify thy Son , that thy[A] Son also may glorify thee[A]: 17:2 As thou[A] hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou[A] hast given him . 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee[A] the only true God[IAM (A+B+C)], and Jesus Christ , whom thou[A] hast sent.

    There you go
     
  7. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    *sigh*

    Let me state what you want to know ed,:


    I believe the Father is the only true God.

    I believe Jesus Christ is the only true God.

    I believe the Holy Spirit is the only true God.


    Of any of these points, you will get no argument from me. I totally agree.
     
  8. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    In regards to I AM:

    do I have to spell it out for you?

    "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: `I AM has sent me to you.'"

    Exodus 3:14


    "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

    John 8:58

    notice Jesus did not say "I WAS" as you or I would say. Instead, Jesus uses the definitive, totally recognizable claim of God: the "I AM" statement.

    I'm curious to wonder what you think Jesus is saying when he says "before Abraham was born, I am!" ?
     
  9. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    ZoneChaos/Josephus,

    As I said, I understand what you are telling me.What I want to know is if God = I AM (A + B + C) or if Jesus (the Son) is the only true God, how can the Father be also the only true God?

    Was Jesus pretending or telling a lie when he identified the Father as the only true God?

    I believe that Jesus was telling the truth that the Father is the only true God (John 17:3). Please convince me that your belief that Jesus is God does not make Jesus a liar.

    Ed
     
  10. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    I believe that the Father is the only true God too.

    I also believe that Jesus is the only true God too.

    Obviously if both of these statements are correct, we are talking about two different categories:

    Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit = Who

    God = What

    Who and What are do different things.

    Who is God, and what is God?
    With God, they can only be two different and distinct categories.

    Who is God? He reveals himself in three persons throughout scripture: the Creator, the Redeemer, the Spirit.

    What is God? one God.

    God is not one person, but he's one God. Scripture doesn't say God is one person, but Scripture resoundingly says that God is one God. Why would God see a need to explain himself as one God if no one questions what he is (how many Gods)? But if someone quesitons who God is (how many persons?), having God explain himself as one God (the "what") is helpful to see HOW God can BE Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit, just as scripture reveals each three to be that one and the same God!

    Think on that for a minute and then read on.



    Let me give you another something to think on. Is God love? If so, then how can God exist eternally - even before creation, if there is nothing for that love to be in existence for? It can only make sense to believe that God is indeed the God of love if God existed before creation as a relationship between distinct persons! It's the only way for love to exist! Without one loving and another being loved, there is no love!
     
  11. Navigator

    Navigator Pizzagator...

    337
    +1
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  12. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    +21
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    US-Republican
    Cool link Nav ;)
     
  13. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Josephus,

    you wrote:


    Your first statement is true because the Bible supports it as recorded in John 17:3 and it wasv Jesus himself who said it.

    Your belief that "Jesus is the only true God too" is false because you cannot present Biblical proof that Jesus said it, just as he identified the Father as the only true God in John 17:3.

    Besides, you haven't proven logically how the Father is the only true God and the SON is ALSO the only true God.

    Please try again.

    Ed
     
  14. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    +21
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    Married
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    This is what it boils down to everytime. Lets throw out faith and rely on ligic. If fiaht does not make since, lets toss it ans rely on science.

    Ahh, the logic and science of man.. where would we be without it.
     
  15. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    hey ZC, you online? do you have AIM?
     
  16. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Josephus,

    You wrote:


    Your two different categories are dependent on the thought that both the above statements are true. Thus, before you go any further Josephus, please explain to me how both statements can be true.

    You and I know that the Father is separate and distinct from the Son. Common sense dictates that if the Father is the only true God, then it is an impossiblity for the Son to be also the only true God.

    The only way both statements can be true is IF the Father is also the Son and the Son is also the Father. However, the Bible is clear that the Son is sparate and distinct fron the Father. The Bible further testifies that after everything is placed under the Son, the Son himself shall be subject to the Father.

    You wrote:


    Jesus says the Father is the only true God. Isn't this enough indication that the only one God is one person and that person is the Father only?

    Ed
     
  17. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    " Common sense dictates that if the Father is the only true God, then it is an impossiblity for the Son to be also the only true God. "

    That's common sense, not scripture.

    So how can they be? Well, the bible says we were created in the image of God. Are you your mind, or your body, or your spirit? If you say yes to more than one, I think you can get a pretty good understanding of HOW Jesus and the Father are both God.

    "Jesus says the Father is the only true God. Isn't this enough indication that the only one God is one person and that person is the Father only? "

    The bible doesn't say God is one person, just one God. Anything else or more is an addition to scripture.
     
  18. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Josephus,



    Then show me scripture which says that the Son is also the only true God.

    You wrote:


    How can Jesus and the Father are both God when Jesus says the Father is the only true God? Are you suggesting that Jesus was wrong in adding "only" to his statement? Are you suggesting that your understanding of what Jesus should be has more weight than the words of Christ himself?



    The Bible doesn't say God is three persons either, just one God. But Jesus identified the Father only as the only true God. Are you suggesting that Jesus is a liar?

    Ed
     
  19. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Then show me scripture which says that the Son is also the only true God."

    Sure..check John 1:1 ;)

    "Are you suggesting that Jesus was wrong in adding "only" to his statement"

    God the father is One God, as is Jesus one God as is the Holy spirit ONE GOD..That's what three IN ONE MEANS ED!

    "The Bible doesn't say God is three persons either, just one God. But Jesus identified the Father only as the only true God. Are you suggesting that Jesus is a liar?"

    Okay ed since you aren't getting it let me just break it down for you in simple english. Jesus said there is one God then said God the father is God then said he was God and that the Holy spirit is God..conclusion..there is ONE GOD. Its three IN ONE. Got it or do I have to do this again?
     
  20. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    LouisBooth,



    John 1:1 doesn't say Jesus is the only true God. That's only your imagination or personal interpretation of wht John 1":1 means. John 1:1 is not even referring to Jesus but to the WORD (spoken or expressed idea, plan or promise) of God.



    I know what you mean by "three in one" Louis. But that is not the question. Why do you evade the question? Because you don't have any answer for it. Right?



    You can do it a million times Louis and I still won't believe it because you haven't shown me that "Jesus said he is God." That "three in one God" thing is only a figfment of your imagination that contradicts John 17:3.

    Please show me how the Trinity doctrine concurs scripturally with what Joihn 17:3 is telling us. The Father is the ONLY (not three persons) true God. Now show me how your Trinity doctrine concurs with this.

    Ed
     
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