• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Does the TRINITY doctrine CONCUR with John 17:3?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Aug 18, 2001.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian
    Why is it that in all places where logos is used it means:

    "a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea"

    "the sayings of God"

    Yet in John it suddenly takes on this "new meaning" of physically being Jesus.

    This logos, or (plan, promise, idea) that God had is for the salvation of the world. It just so happens that Jesus is the ends and means by which this plan/promise was put into action.

    Is Jesus literally this logos? No, the logos is a figurative description of Jesus.

    When Mary concieved and Jesus was born, the plan that God had became real. Up to then it was a plan, not a physical thing. When someone thinks about something, whether it is a pencil, calling someone on the telephone, or getting up from a chair. It is only a thought until action is taken. Once that action is taken, the thought becomes real. Prior to that point, the thought can be changed many times but only the end result is real.

    Jesus became a part of the physical plan of God when he was born. Prior to that, God knew there would be a son and that the son would have to die. But was the son physically there, no.
     
  2. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    +21
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    The problem with that D, is that if you look at "the Word" in John 1:1 as nothing more than a "plan" or "idea", then "the Word was with God" makes no sense. This implies that what / whoever the Word is, is a thing or entity that can exist in the presence of God.
     
  3. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    Ed, also, if Jesus was begotten of God, that would mean He is of the Father - meaning he would share the same qualities and characteristics of his Father. He would in a sense have the "God" stuff in his entire makeup - but since there is only one God, then Jesus must be that only one God.
     
  4. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "John 1:1 doesn't say Jesus is the only true God. That's only your imagination or personal interpretation of wht John 1":1 means. John 1:1 is not even referring to Jesus but to the WORD (spoken or expressed idea, plan or promise) of God.
    "

    Wrong ed, it is speaking about Jesus. Just do the math. Let me help you out. First it says the word became flesh and dwelt among us, then it says John testifies about the word saying this, "He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me." Then in verses 17 and 18 it clearly calls Jesus God, but lets just go on...In verse 29 John sees Jesus and look what he says in verse 30..Surprise!! It is the EXACT SAME THING that he said about the word..why? Because Jesus is the logos. Don't be blinded to the truth Ed.

    "I know what you mean by "three in one" Louis. But that is not the question. Why do you evade the question? Because you don't have any answer for it. Right?"

    No ed, I answered your question. It was just an answer you don't like..sometimes we dont' always "like" the truth ed, but its still truth.


    "Please show me how the Trinity doctrine concurs scripturally with what Joihn 17:3 is telling us. The Father is the ONLY (not three persons) true God. Now show me how your Trinity doctrine concurs with this."

    I have many times Ed. You take a verse and look at it indepentantly, but that is NOT THE WAY IT IS MENT TO BE READ. The bible is a whole book and ment to be read that way. If you read it you clearly see that Jesus is God, God the father is God and The Holy Spirit is God hence..3 in one ;)
     
  5. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Josephus,

    You wrote:
    The speculation that "Jesus must be that only one God" is just that - speculation, and it does not do you any good. We can only be sanctified by the truth and the truth is the word of God - the Bible.

    God testified that Jesus is His son in whom He is well pleased. Jesus, the son, testified that the Father is the only true God (John 17:3). The Bible gives us no room for speculation. Either we believe the Bible or we don't.

    Ed
     
  6. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    ZoneChaos,

    You wrote:
    The "word", "plan" or "idea" was God's. Naturally, it was with God in the beginning. Who else would the "word", "plan" or "idea" be with except the one whose "word", "plan" or "idea" it is?

    Ed
     
  7. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    ed, the bible I use when delving in this subject is the Hebrew Old Testament, and Greek New Testatment. Anything else is just a translation.
     
  8. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "God testified that Jesus is His son in whom He is well pleased. Jesus, the son, testified that the Father is the only true God (John 17:3). The Bible gives us no room for speculation. Either we believe the Bible or we don't."

    Ahh..you're getting it ed!! This coupled with other statements such as the father and I are one and everything the father has is mine should tell you that Jesus is saying he is seperate from God but yet idential in diety..ie I am God...you're halfway there ed take the last step to the truth.

    "Who else would the "word", "plan" or "idea" be with except the one whose "word", "plan" or "idea" it is?"

    So the plan is God also..the plan was Christ..he was with God in the beginning and is God..ya got that right ed ;)
     
  9. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    LouisBooth,

    Again you are speculating Louis. "I and the Father are one" doesn't say Jesus and the Father are one God. They are simply one which could mean anything from "one caring for the sheep" or "one in judgment."

    Also, Jesus' statement that "everything the Father has is mine" doesn't tell me that "Jesus is saying he is separate from God but yet identical in deity...ie, "I am God." This is pure speculation or conclusion based on distorted interpretation to make the verse fit your false belief that Jesus is God.

    The plan is NOT a "HE" Louis. The plan is NOT Christ. Let's say you plan to build a house. And let's say you plan to name that house "Louis." That plan was with you since the time the plan was conceived in your mind, but "Louis" was not yet in existence. The only time "louis" appears is after the house has been built.

    Got it my friend?

    Ed
     
  10. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "Again you are speculating Louis. "I and the Father are one" doesn't say Jesus and the Father are one God. "

    :lol: yes it does ed, what to you think "one" means :lol: You're just ignoring the plain words now.

    "This is pure speculation or conclusion based on distorted interpretation to make the verse fit your false belief that Jesus is God."

    Ed, then you just don't get the assurtion made by Christ. he says EVERYTHING that God has (power, omni-whatever..everything) is his..that makes him God, ed. Just think about it.


    "The plan is NOT a "HE" Louis. The plan is NOT Christ. "

    Yes it is Ed. Should we go through John chapter one and I can show you SEVERAL places where John clearly says Jesus is God. Its up to you ed, do you really want to know the truth?


    "That plan was with you since the time the plan was conceived in your mind, but "Louis" was not yet in existence. "

    :lol: but the plan is NOT me. It clearly says the word WAS God.

    "And let's say you plan to name that house "Louis"

    :lol: so Jesus is named God then huh? Thanks for proving my point for me ed. :lol:

    "The only time "louis" appears is after the house has been built."

    Wrong ed, it says he is WITH God in the beginning. Not on God's mind, not waiting to be with God, BUT WITH GOD. I think you're just ignoring the plain words here ed.
     
  11. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    LouisBooth,

    Okay, let's test your idea that John 17:3 is not meant to be read independently. Let's compare John 17:3 with John 10:30 and show us how these two verses can both be true.

    John 17:3 says the Father is the only true God. "And this is eternal life, that they may know YOU (referring to the Father in verses 1), the only true God, and Jesus Christ whoim YOU have se This is true.

    John 10:30 simply says, "I and the Father are one." This verse does not say that Jesus and the Father are both God. The verse is silent about that. Hence, as it is, the verse is also true because it does not contradict John 17:3.

    However, once the verse is interpreted to mean that Jesus and the Father are both God, then the meaning of the verse is distorted and no longer true.

    That's when false teachers also distort the true meaning of John 17:3 to make it mesh or align with their distorted meaning of John 10:30.

    And this method of distortion is true in all verses that fanatics use to defend the Trinity doctrine.

    They distort the meaning of these verses, then distort the true meaning of John 17:3 to make it align with their distorted meaning of verses like John 1:1; John 1:14; John 8:58; John 20:28; Col. 9:5; etc).

    Other verses like Zech. 12:10; Isaiah 9:6; Heb. 1:8; John 1:18 are mistranslated to provide support for the Trinity and the true meaning of John 17:3 is distorted to satisfy their misguided belkief that Jesus is God.

    Ed
     
  12. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    ed, the bible I use when delving in this subject is the Hebrew Old Testament, and Greek New Testatment. Anything else is just a translation.
     
  13. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Josephus,

    You wrote:
    You must be reading from the Hebrew Bible which is also a translation from the original Hebrew manuscripts. The Revised Standard Version RSV, Today's English Version TEV, The Living Bible TLBand the Moffat translations of Zechariah 12:10 are ALL consistent in their use of the pronoun "HIM". Only the New International Version NIV and the King James Version KJV among the Bibles I have, use a mixture of the pronouns "ME" and "HIM".

    Just like you Josephus, all the translators of these BIBLES claim that they translated from the original Hebrew text. Yet they came up with contrasting translation of Zechariah 12:10.

    Thus, the question to ask is, which of these translations reflect the truth? And what is the truth? The truth as stated by Jesus is he is a man (John 8:40) with flesh and bones which a spirit doesn't have (Luke 24:39). Another truth as stated by Jesus is that the Father is the only true God (John 17:3) and God is Spirit (John 4:24) that doesn't have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39).

    Zechariah 12:10 is God speaking and saying that "they will look to the one who is pierced..."

    The Hebrew Bible, NIV and KJV translators would like people to believe that it is God Himself who is pierced by saying, "they will look to ME whom they pierced."

    Is this accurate? Wasn't Jesus, the man with flesh and bones, the one who said he is a man, the one whom they pierced? Can anyone pierce a spirit which is what God is? Can God who raised Jesus from the dead (Rom. 10:9) be the same Jesus whom they pierced and himself God raised from the dead?

    The other Bibles say that "they will look on "HIM" whom they pierced." Remember that it is God talking here. So God is saying that they will look on "HIM (referring to Jesus) whom they pierced."

    Isn't this the more accurate translation of Zechariah 12:10? God cannot be pierced because he is Spirit. Jesus can be pierced because he is flesh and bones.

    Ed
     
  14. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    *sigh*
    ed, aren't you bothering to read my posts?

    This is the bible I use: Notice that it is not a translation of any kind. It IS the original Hebrew. And while you're at it, please notice the "look on Me" and "mourn for Him" and notice the pronouns are totally different. Find me another Hebrew text with it different, and I will believe that this copy is flawed. If not, then I want you to conceede for now that Zech 12:10 says what it really says here.


    www.info2000.net/~ise/bible/text.jpg
     
  15. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
  16. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    and again:

    www.info2000.net/~ise/bible/text.jpg

    Ed, what do you think?

    I'm tryin' not to bible bash ya, but in love I ask you to at least CONSIDER the truth as it is layed out before you. God has a divine appointment for you , and if you wish, call me! Email me now [email protected] - I'd love to set up a chat time.
     
  17. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Josephus,

    You wrote:
    Aren't the RSv, TEV, TLB and MOFFAT recognized Bibles too? What truth are you saying is layed out before me?

    Wasn't Jesus saying the truth when he said that God is Spirit? Wasn't Jesus saying the truth when he said he is a man? Wasn't Jesus saying the truth when he said that the Father is the only true God? Wasn't Jesus saying the truth when he said a spirit (God is spirit, remember) doesn't have flesh and bones as he has?

    You say Jesus is God. If that is true, aren't you sying Jesus LIED when he said the Father is the only true God?

    Your version of Zechariah 12:10 cannot be true because if Jesus was God whom they pierced, then there would have been two Gods. One, the God whom they pierced and mourned for and wept over, and two, the God raised Jesus from the dead (Rom. 10:9). And the Bible does not support this false idea of two Gods. Moreover, Jesus would have been lying when he said that God is spirit (John 4:24) and therefore could not be pierced.

    At any rate, if you want to continue this conversation in a more private manner, my e-mail address is: [email protected]


    Ed
     
  18. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian
    Boy, there sure are a lot of threads concerning John 17:3.

    Josephus,

    I had asked over on the thread titled "Is John 17:3 True" if you were reading the actual Hebrew or the words below the Hebrew in the bible you have shown.

    I mean no disrespect. If you are reading the Hebrew, I applaude you. But on the other hand, if you are reading the words below the Hebrew, are you not reading someone's interpretation of what the Hebrew said.

    Just curious.
     
  19. Michael

    Michael Contributor Supporter

    +996
    Christian
    The relationship between God, Holy Spirit, Jesus and us, is crucially interwoven with this passage. John 17 is certainly one of the more crucial passages in the bible regarding the relationship between Jesus and God, as well as OUR relationship with them both.

    Jesus taught his whole life from a place of selflessness. He was not on an ego trip at all. He's constantly explaining that his power comes from God, and describes himself as a *MAN* doing the will of the Father.

    The trinity doctrine is not what Jesus himself taught, and John 17 clearly demonstrates this to be in error.

    Jesus prays to God as son to Father the night before he is to be put to death.

    Jesus was not God. He was not killed for suggesting he was God. He was killed for claiming to be the Messiah and Christ, but this is not the same as claiming to be God.

    I can't recall a single instance of Jesus refering to himself as God in the first person sense in all of the Gospels. I can think of numerous examples though where he openly states he is *SON* of God, and refers to God in the *THIRD* person.

    I think what Ed's been trying to show you is that Jesus didn't claim to be God. That was a church add-on hundreds of years later.
     
  20. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    +21
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    And who was the word when the Word became Flesh?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...