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Does the TRINITY doctrine CONCUR with John 17:3?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Aug 18, 2001.

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  1. Michael

    Michael Contributor Supporter

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    >>And who was the word when the Word became Flesh?

    The Holy Spirit. The breath of God. This same Spirit has been since before there was a universe, and will be long after this universe has fizzled away into oblivion.

    Jesus literally describes himself as a man, unified with God through the presense of the Holy Spirit. Without question, this is exactly what he was. He explains in John 17 that it is our duty as well to achieve this same unity with God. Should we honor his teachings?
     
  2. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Michael. this wasn't your question.. also.. that didn't answer my question.. that skirted around it. let me clarify.. for you so you answer too..

    After the Word became Flesh, who was the Word?

    According to you Miachel, the Holy Spirit became a man... hmm...
     
  3. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "However, once the verse is interpreted to mean that Jesus and the Father are both God, then the meaning of the verse is distorted and no longer true. "

    wrong ed...you said it best already..Jesus and God are one..ie one God and that is the one true God..that's the trinity..get it?

    Ed, do you know greek or hebrew..learn it then I'll maybe consider your opition on if something is mistranslated or not. Until then I view your opition on this as uneducated.
     
  4. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "The trinity doctrine is not what Jesus himself taught, and John 17 clearly demonstrates this to be in error."

    That is a false statement. Jesus DID teach the trinity if you acutally read what he said. John makes it clear in chapter 1 about his diety also.

    "I can't recall a single instance of Jesus refering to himself as God in the first person sense in all of the Gospels. "

    then you haven't read enough ;)

    How about that passage in Luke where he forgives sins?

    "I think what Ed's been trying to show you is that Jesus didn't claim to be God. That was a church add-on hundreds of years later. "

    Wrong again! Paul himself though Jesus was diety, as did the church at Jer. and that was less then 80 years after jesus asended! Jesus clearly claims to be God and the bible shows he is. If you don't see that then you are just ignoring the words on the page.
     
  5. lionsden101

    lionsden101 Guest

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    Jesus is 100% God is 100% Holy Spirit is 100% Jesus

    John 10:30
    I and the Father are one.

    John 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    -----------------------------------------------------------
    John 1:2-3
    He was in the beginning with God.
    All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

    Genesis 1:1
    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Isaiah 42:8
    "I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.

    Isaiah 48:11
    I will not yield my glory to another.

    John 1:14
    The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    John 17:1-5
    After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Isaiah 54:13
    All your sons will be taught by the LORD, and great will be your children's peace.

    John 6:42-46
    It is written in the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Act 20:28
    Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with his own blood.
    [God had blood.]
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Exodus 3:14
    God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: `I AM has sent me to you.'"

    John 8:56-58
    Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
    -Jesus
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    John 4:24
    God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
    ------------------------------------------------------------

    John 5:18
    For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

    Titus 2:13-14
    looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed NASB

    1 Timothy 3:13-16 NKJV
    14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
    God was manifested in the flesh,
    Justified in the Spirit,
    Seen by angels,
    Preached among the Gentiles,
    Believed on in the world,
    Received up in glory.

    Hebrews 1:8 NKJV
    But to the Son He says:
    "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
    A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    2 Corinthians 3:18
    And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit

    Romans 9:5
    of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen

    to be continued:
     
  6. Michael

    Michael Contributor Supporter

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    >>After the Word became Flesh, who was the Word?

    The Holy Spirit doesn't fit inside a single human being, but it can enlighten *ALL* human beings.

    >>According to you Miachel, the Holy Spirit became a man... hmm...

    No, according to me, a man became embued with the presense of the Holy Spirit.
     
  7. Michael

    Michael Contributor Supporter

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    Nowhere in his teachings does Jesus describe this "union with" God, as exclusive. In John 17 he makes it clear in fact what we can literally all become *ONE WITH* both Jesus and God.

    John 17:20

    Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
    I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
     
  8. Michael

    Michael Contributor Supporter

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    John 1:32

    And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
    And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
    And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
     
  9. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Fair enough, but that isn't what you said. Nor is it what we are talking about. Answer the question: After the Word became Flesh, who or what is the Flesh? John akes it apparent that it is Jesus Christ. And John makes it apparent that Jesus Christ was born as He is, and did not reach divinity over time. John says that the Word became Flesh. John says that the Word is God. John says that Jesus is the Word. Why you choose to ignore that is beyond me. Why you choose to rationalize John to fit your beleifs is beyond me.

    nd this does not even answer the question...

    The Word is who? John writes about the Wor das a person, and describes the Word as he and other writers describe God.

    So we have the Word=God. So, when God became Flesh... who was the person that God was / is? John says Jesus Christ.. who do you think it is?
     
  10. Michael

    Michael Contributor Supporter

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    >>Fair enough, but that isn't what you said. Nor is it what we are talking about. Answer the question: After the Word became Flesh, who or what is the Flesh?

    You seem to want me to say that the "Word" takes on the form of Jesus Christ. Does that make you happy? :) Where does that leave the Bible then, for surely it too cannot also be the "Word"? :(

    Sure the Word is made manifest through Jesus, but this is not the same as suggesting Jesus is God.

    >>John akes it apparent that it is Jesus Christ. And John makes it apparent that Jesus Christ was born as He is, and did not reach divinity over time. John says that the Word became Flesh. John says that the Word is God. John says that Jesus is the Word. Why you choose to ignore that is beyond me. Why you choose to rationalize John to fit your beleifs is beyond me.

    Now that's quite amusing actually. I've explained to you the relationship between God, Holy Spirit, and Jesus in great detail now, and I *AGREE* that Jesus was the living *WORD* of God, in that he lived and served God from dawn to dusk, and followed the presense of the Holy Spirit within him.

    You on the other hand have been clinging to the bible being the living "Word". Which is it? Is the Holy Spirit the Word, or is a book the Word?

    M>The Holy Spirit doesn't fit inside a single human being, but it can enlighten *ALL* human beings.

    >>nd this does not even answer the question...

    It does answer the question, you just don't want to *HEAR* the answer.

    >>The Word is who? John writes about the Wor das a person, and describes the Word as he and other writers describe God.

    John (the disciple) also uses the term "WE ARE OF GOD". The presense of the Holy Spirit within, is not an exclusive relationship. It can be in me, and it can be in you, and it can be in everyone simultaneously. This is the part you seem to fail to grasp.

    >>So we have the Word=God. So, when God became Flesh... who was the person that God was / is? John says Jesus Christ.. who do you think it is?

    As I have explained to you repeatedly, the Holy Spirit is the living Word of God. I'll bet I've said that now a hundred times in the past year.

    The Holy Spirit lives within each of us. We need only "hear" it, more accurately "experience" it.

    I have no problem with the concept of trinity in the end as I've said. I say this because the union of man to God is through the presense of the Holy Spirit, the living WORD of God. It can become manifest in each of our lives. The fact it is in you, does not prevent it from being in me. It *PERMIATES* reality.

    It is the exclusivity aspect of the trinity doctrine which I ultimately reject. It is the idea that no one else can achieve this union with God that goes directly against the teachings of Jesus himself.

    In the end, as I've said, the true "trinity" is God(1)->, breathing life into creation through the Holy Spirit(2)-> into each of Us(3). We are all part of that same "trinity". Union with God is our destiny and our duty. It is not limited exclusively to Jesus. That's *NOT* what he claimed in John 17.
     
  11. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

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    ed you wrote:

    Or you're forgetting the third option to explain Zech 12:10:

    that "they" are one and the same God.

    If "Me", and "Him" are one and the same God, then it quite easily explains the other objections you stated above: both Jesus and the Father are one and the same God. The one and only true God.
     
  12. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Only if you accept is a true.

    Two different uses of the word "word".

    Then why does John not say this? Why does John say the Word became Flesh?

    When have I ever said the Bible is the living word of God?

    The Bible is the Word of god, as in it is inspired by God. That is different than The Word that John talks about. The Word that John talks about is the on of God.

    Again I stress that you had better find a quote from me that staes that the Bible is the Living word of God.

    Hmm.. well John does not say this, nor any other passage in scripture.. where did you get this idea from?

    The Trinity does not, repeat, does not teach that the unity mentioned in John is not possible.

    Well, why there is a trinity there.. that is not the "Trinity of the Trinity Doctrine.
     
  13. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    And, oh yeah, Michael.. we are using John to suppor tit because it does. You have thrown in a topic form another htread in here. please don't. I foyu must, respond off topic in the other thread, not in here.
     
  14. Michael

    Michael Contributor Supporter

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    >>Only if you accept is a true.

    I fully accept that Jesus did the will of God, and lived in the presense of the Holy Spirit, and in this way was indeed unified with God. God->Holy Spirit->Jesus. I believe you'd have a hard time distinguishing the difference here between what came out of Jesus mouth, and what the Holy Spirit conveys. I can see no difference in fact.

    M>Where does that leave the Bible then, for surely it too cannot also be the "Word"?

    >>Two different uses of the word "word".

    Not really. I hear a lot of "fundies" refer to the bible as the "word" of God. It's certainly not the "WORD" that created physical reality, or the WORD the John refers to. The idea it's flawless therefor seems more than a little like bible worship to me.

    M>Sure the Word is made manifest through Jesus, but this is not the same as suggesting Jesus is God.

    >>Then why does John not say this? Why does John say the Word became Flesh?

    Why does John also call Jesus, God's SON? You seem to want to hear only one part of the message, and not the other! He does not come the conclusion that Jesus is God, only that the "Word" is Jesus through the presense of the Holy Spirit which decended upon Jesus at baptism.

    M>You on the other hand have been clinging to the bible being the living "Word". Which is it? Is the Holy Spirit the Word, or is a book the Word?

    >>When have I ever said the Bible is the living word of God?

    Why do you portray it as infallible? How is that not simply idol worship?

    >>The Bible is the Word of god, as in it is inspired by God. That is different than The Word that John talks about. The Word that John talks about is the on of God.

    It's one thing to put your faith in the living "WORD" of God, the Holy Spirit, but it's quite another to suggest a human created thing is "infallible".

    >>Again I stress that you had better find a quote from me that staes that the Bible is the Living word of God.

    More threats? Were you tired tonight or what? You have spent days of my time trying to convince me some human written book is somehow a flawless work havent' you, or was that someone else?

    M>Holy Spirit is the living Word of God.

    >>Hmm.. well John does not say this, nor any other passage in scripture.. where did you get this idea from?

    It what the LIVING WORD OF GOD tells me. Even the passage in question suggests the WORD existed before Jesus was born. What was it then?

    M>It is the idea that no one else can achieve this union with God that goes directly against the teachings of Jesus himself.

    >>The Trinity does not, repeat, does not teach that the unity mentioned in John is not possible.

    It does suggest that Jesus is somehow so different from us as to be on some unattainable pedestal. This is not what Jesus taught. He refered to himself as a man, and God as the source of all his strength and abilities. He also insisted that we too are capable of this union with God.

    M>In the end, as I've said, the true "trinity" is God(1)->, breathing life into creation through the Holy Spirit(2)-> into each of Us(3).

    >>Well, why there is a trinity there.. that is not the "Trinity of the Trinity Doctrine.

    No, it's definitely not the party line, but it's the only "trinity" I believe in.
     
  15. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Ahhh!!! That is what I said. we both agree! 2 different uses of the word "word".

    Yes, Christians refer to the Bible as the word. NO we do not mean it is the "Word" mentined in John. NO we do not worship the Bible! Get it through your head already. And even if you do not beleoive that they are like this.. I am. and you aretlaking to me. So if anything, when I say something, and you say back that I don't really mean what I say, you are calling me a liar. Is that what you are doing Michael? f not, then accept what I said above as what I said, and what I believe.

    Seems to you?!? Who are you that I should base my salvation on anything you say? You want to call it Bible worship.. fine do so, but you do so in error. I do think the Bible, in its original autograph of the authors, who were inspired by God, is without error of its original inspired citation from God. And, I do not worship the Bible. Those two statements may not make sense to youin your minds, but they are both true.

    Umm.. becasue He is God's (the Fasther) Son. Duh! I have answered this for you already many times.. why ask it again?

    But john did not say this.. John said the Word becamre Flesh. So I ask, why does John not say this? Why does John say the Word became Flesh? Why doesn't John write it as you wish he would have.. that The word, manifestewd it self, or that the word, slowly changed a man into a messiah?

    It isn't idol worship becasue I do not worshpi it. Now, answer my question. When have I ever said that the bible is the Loving Word of God. You said I did.. show ne. If you don't, I assume you madew a statement about me that isn't true.

    I do not claim thast it was only human ceated.. I also claim that God had a direct part in its creation.

    I have said as mush.. I did not say it was alive! You have made a false claim about me. And yes it was a threat.. if you accus eme of something, back it up.

    Like you don't already know what I am oing to answer.. hehe.

    The WORD is the God the Son.

    It and the Bile teaches that Jesus is different than us. HE is God, but the Biblke and the Trinity does ont teach that Jesus is unattainable, only that His Godhood is unattainable by us.

    Yes, we are able to achive union with GOd, but that union does not make us Devine. It does not make us equal to Jesus.

    So, sence that sin';t the Trinty we are discussing, why bring it up? To show that I am almost right, but not quite? Good luck.

    After you get aroud to answering the questions I asked earlier, without answering them with more questions, tell me what you think about this:

    First, the Bible says that whoever denies that Jesus has come in the flesh is of the spirit of the Antichrist (1 John 4:1-2).

    How does this relate to the Diety of Christ? JOhn wrote both John and I-III John. We can reasonably assume that he didn't contradict himself in thes writings.

    John wrote "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . .and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. . ."

    Obviously, from the context, John is not simply saying that you must believe that Jesus lived, you must believe that He is the Word made flesh. And since he already said that the Word was God, Jesus, therefore, is God in flesh.

    It seems to me you beleive the "Word" translated from the Greek, is logos. signifying the outward form of inward thought or reason, or the spoken word as illustrative of thought, wisdom and doctrine, and that in the very beginning, God’s purpose, wisdom or revelation was proclaimed through His Word. This Word was 'with God' in that it emanated from Him; it 'was God' in that it represented Him to mankind. . ." You sound like a Christiandelphinian.

    The problem with this reasoning is not that the definition, in itself, is incorrect. For it can be said that the Word was indeed the wisdom and emanation from God. But that is not all it is saying. It is saying that the Word WAS God. Jesus IS the Word. He isn’t simply a manifestation of some divine attribute or quality.

    Also, what about the context? John 1:2-3 "The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

    The Word is who created all things. Of course, it is naturally understood that this does not include God Himself. But all that is made, has been made by the Word that became flesh. And, the Word is revered to as a person, not a quality which you seem to have imposed onto the text.


    Also, if Jesus is not God in flesh, then why is He worshiped?

    This is especially important since Jesus said that you are to worship God only . Yet, Jesus receives worship and never rebukes anyone for it.

    If Jesus is not God, then why He not correct Thomas when He was called God by Thomas who said to Jesus in John 20:28, "My Lord and my God."

    You want a verse in scripture that calls Jesus God? Here you go:

    Hebrews 1:5-8 "For to which of the angels did He [God] ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him." And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire." But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom."

    Jesus is called God by God. If He is not God, then why does the Father call Him God? Is the Father wrong? Is the writer of Hebrews wrong?

    The SON of God is Jesus. The Father, who is God, is caling the Son woh is Jesus, God. Trippy, huh?

    Here are some things John represents Jesus as:

    giving eternal life (John 10:27);

    the bread of life (6:35,51 - an obvious allusion to the manna given by God out of heaven in 6:32-35);

    the way the truth and the life (14:6);

    the light of the world (8:12);

    being the 'I am" (8:5:cool: .

    sharing the glory of God before creation (17:5; note that God shares His glory with no one, Isaiah 42::cool: ;

    calling Jesus His own Father making Himself equal with God (John 5:1:cool: ;

    receiving the same honor that you give to the Father (John 5:23);

    knowing all things (21:17 - something only God can do).

    And in 18:5, in the Garden of Gethsemane when Jesus answers those who came to arrest Him with the statement, "I am", they fall back to ground.

    "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am' "

    It is clear to me that John considered Jesus, to be God in the Flesh.
     
  16. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

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    From 9/2:
    Still curious.
     
  17. Michael

    Michael Contributor Supporter

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    >>Yes, Christians refer to the Bible as the word. NO we do not mean it is the "Word" mentined in John. NO we do not worship the Bible! Get it through your head already.

    If you did not "worship" the bible, you would not have any trouble noting that it is *NOT* a flawless document, nor does it even come close to all being the will of God. The fact you can't do these things suggests to me that you are still bible worshipping. Books are not "perfect".

    >>And even if you do not beleoive that they are like this.. I am. and you aretlaking to me. So if anything, when I say something, and you say back that I don't really mean what I say, you are calling me a liar.

    No, but I'm noting there is a difference between what you are saying "I don't bible worship" and what you insist upon, "it's all infallible" are diametrically aposed to one another. If you believe this book to be flawless, then indeed you must accept that you are bible worshiping as well.

    >>Is that what you are doing Michael? f not, then accept what I said above as what I said, and what I believe.

    I hear what you are saying ZC, and I'm not trying to make you mad, but you are saying two things here which contradict one another. You hold the bible to be infallible, and yet claim this is not bible worship. I don't see how you rationalize that contradiction.

    M>The idea it's flawless therefor seems more than a little like bible worship to me.

    >>Seems to you?!? Who are you that I should base my salvation on anything you say?

    Just another guy with another opinion, just like you.

    >>You want to call it Bible worship.. fine do so, but you do so in error. I do think the Bible, in its original autograph of the authors, who were inspired by God, is without error of its original inspired citation from God. And, I do not worship the Bible. Those two statements may not make sense to youin your minds, but they are both true.

    These two sentences together make up what's called an oxymoron. It's like saying blue is red. You've elevated a book to the status of "perfection" and claim that's not bible worship.

    M>Why does John also call Jesus, God's SON?

    >>Umm.. becasue He is God's (the Fasther) Son. Duh! I have answered this for you already many times.. why ask it again?

    Try it this way then. Why will you not believe Jesus himself when he says we can all achieve this same union with God?

    M>He does not come the conclusion that Jesus is God, only that the "Word" is Jesus through the presense of the Holy Spirit which decended upon Jesus at baptism.

    >>But john did not say this.. John said the Word becamre Flesh. So I ask, why does John not say this?

    I can't ask him to find out. I can only look to Jesus for the best possible explanation on this subject. Fortunately he provides on in John 17. John was after all simply "interpreting" what Jesus was about after all, just like you and me.

    >>Why does John say the Word became Flesh? Why doesn't John write it as you wish he would have.. that The word, manifestewd it self, or that the word, slowly changed a man into a messiah?

    I don't know why. These are the metaphors he chose to use, and John also makes it abundantly clear that he believes Jesus to be the son of God, not God. I accept what John is saying, that the Holy Spirit was fully manifest in Jesus. I agree with him also that Jesus was the son of God, and not God. You seem to accept only *PART* of his message whereas I'm accepting the *WHOLE* thing.

    M>Why do you portray it as infallible? How is that not simply idol worship?

    >>It isn't idol worship becasue I do not worshpi it. Now, answer my question. When have I ever said that the bible is the Loving Word of God. You said I did.. show ne. If you don't, I assume you madew a statement about me that isn't true.

    I'm not going back through months of posts now looking for the best example I can find here. It's pretty clear to everyone that you'd rather believe that genocide is God's will rather than to entertain the idea that Joshua was just a liar.

    You *WILL NOT* give me a definition of what constitutes "divine inspiration" in any useful was which might allow us to test this theory of yours, and then you claim this is not artificially lifting a book up to the status of godhood. What can I say here? The bible is just a book is it not?

    M>It's one thing to put your faith in the living "WORD" of God, the Holy Spirit, but it's quite another to suggest a human created thing is "infallible".

    >>I do not claim thast it was only human ceated.. I also claim that God had a direct part in its creation.

    A direct part how? Through the presense of the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit insists to me that God is love. John agrees with me. Genocide is not a loving act. How do you explain this?

    M>More threats? Were you tired tonight or what? You have spent days of my time trying to convince me some human written book is somehow a flawless work havent' you, or was that someone else?

    >>I have said as mush.. I did not say it was alive! You have made a false claim about me. And yes it was a threat.. if you accus eme of something, back it up.

    You've called it the "word" of God. The WORD as defined by the Bible is the Holy Spirit which manifest this creation. The bible is man's word.

    M>Even the passage in question suggests the WORD existed before Jesus was born. What was it then?

    >>Like you don't already know what I am oing to answer.. hehe. The WORD is the God the Son.

    Well, I agree, and Jesus also seems to agree. He called the Holy Spirit the only begotten son of God in fact.

    M>It does suggest that Jesus is somehow so different from us as to be on some unattainable pedestal.

    >>It and the Bile teaches that Jesus is different than us.

    Sure, we are all unique.

    >>HE is God,

    Jesus *doesn't* say this however.

    >>but the Biblke and the Trinity does ont teach that Jesus is unattainable, only that His Godhood is unattainable by us.

    Jesus said that we could achieve this same union with God that he enjoys. To deny this is to deny his teachings. I won't do that. Whatever status you elevate Jesus to based on "union with" God, you must allow for all beings to achieve this state. That is what Jesus said.

    M>This is not what Jesus taught. He refered to himself as a man, and God as the source of all his strength and abilities. He also insisted that we too are capable of this union with God.

    >>Yes, we are able to achive union with GOd, but that union does not make us Devine. It does not make us equal to Jesus.

    You are jumping concepts here as I see it. Union with God is what Jesus claimed he had. He didn't say he was God in the first person. In fact none of you has produced a first person claim to the contrary in the whole of the gospels. "Divinity" is really more of an intangible. How can you measure that within Jesus directly in the absense of the Holy Spirit for instance? I have no idea how you'd begin to define that in terms unrelated the the Holy Spirit with him, but there is an element of Jesus the man here who allowed this to happen, in fact cooperated with it. This unique "soul" is indeed "divine" IMO too, but it is not "GOD" the "FATHER".

    M>No, it's definitely not the party line, but it's the only "trinity" I believe in.

    >>So, sence that sin';t the Trinty we are discussing, why bring it up? To show that I am almost right, but not quite? Good luck.

    Actually, I think this is a *VERY* important topic for christianity. It gets to the heart of what the relationship between ouselves and God is really all about. We all seem to agree it involves the presense of the Holy Spirit, but you seem to believe that the Holy Spirit can descend upon it's own source. I don't buy that concept.

    >>After you get aroud to answering the questions I asked earlier, without answering them with more questions, tell me what you think about this:

    What have I not answered you - repeatedly?

    >>First, the Bible says that whoever denies that Jesus has come in the flesh is of the spirit of the Antichrist (1 John 4:1-2).

    I do *NOT* deny that. What are you trying to suggest?

    >>How does this relate to the Diety of Christ?

    The statement related to Jesus being the Messiah come in the flesh. I certainly believe this.

    You however are trying to go a step further and suggest that Jesus was also "divine" in the sense of "being" God. This isn't what Jesus said though, nor is it in alignment with his own experience of fear the night before his death.

    >>JOhn wrote both John and I-III John. We can reasonably assume that he didn't contradict himself in thes writings.

    Ok, but let's leave some room for honest research shall we? If it turns out that there is convincing evidence some of these writings are not his, then we should listen. I know of none at the moment.

    >>John wrote "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . .and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. . ."

    And depending on how you choose to interpret that statement, I can accept these things. Are we talking about John the disciple here, or John the Baptist however?

    >>Obviously, from the context, John is not simply saying that you must believe that Jesus lived, you must believe that He is the Word made flesh.

    Indeed, and that Jesus is the Messiah. I believe these things, but I don't believe Jesus is God. He said he wasn't in fact. He called himself a man and God the only true God.

    >>And since he already said that the Word was God, Jesus, therefore, is God in flesh.

    Jesus IMO resided in the consciousness of the Holy Spirit pretty much his whole life. I have no idea if he lived a "perfect" life (as in never made a mistake), nor do I care. It is an irrelevant point. I can even accept a very human and "flawed" Messiah. It really doesn't matter to me. His teachings are what matter to me.

    >>It seems to me you beleive the "Word" translated from the Greek, is logos. signifying the outward form of inward thought or reason, or the spoken word as illustrative of thought, wisdom and doctrine, and that in the very beginning, God’s purpose, wisdom or revelation was proclaimed through His Word. This Word was 'with God' in that it emanated from Him; it 'was God' in that it represented Him to mankind. . ." You sound like a Christiandelphinian.

    I never brought up the concept of Logos. That's only going to complicate the discussion. As to pinning labels on me, you know how I resent the idea of *ANY* label in the first place.

    John said that Jesus would baptize by the Spirit, and this is what I believe Jesus does. The rest is just opinion.

    >>The problem with this reasoning is not that the definition, in itself, is incorrect. For it can be said that the Word was indeed the wisdom and emanation from God. But that is not all it is saying. It is saying that the Word WAS God.

    The Holy Spirit is *OF* God, as sunlight is from a sun. A plant absorbs sunlight, but it does not become a sun. If you were to contain a sample of sunlight in some way, the sample would still not be the sun itself.

    >>Jesus IS the Word. He isn’t simply a manifestation of some divine attribute or quality.

    He's as close to the source as the bible has to offer, on that we both agree. He most certainly is the physical manifestation of the Holy Spirit for the most part, but he calls himself a man, and shows fear the night before his death. This is quite understandable for a man, this is less understandable if Jesus were God. What does God fear?

    >>Also, what about the context? John 1:2-3 "The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

    Just as the sunlight creates all life on earth, it isn't the sun itself. This is the best analogy I can give you. Just as the Holy Spirit eminates from God, it does not define God.

    >>The Word is who created all things. Of course, it is naturally understood that this does not include God Himself. But all that is made, has been made by the Word that became flesh.

    The WORD existed before Jesus was born. Jesus existed before Jesus was born. The WORD is the creative force from which *ALL* things manifest, including, you, me and Jesus.

    >>And, the Word is revered to as a person, not a quality which you seem to have imposed onto the text.

    The WORD is not a person. It is the flow of energy through creation, the conscious and directed flow of energy through creation. Jesus was one with this force, emersed in this force.

    >>Also, if Jesus is not God in flesh, then why is He worshiped?

    I "worship" what he has done for me. He has shown me the way to the Holy Spirit. For this I am *ETERNALLY* grateful.

    >>This is especially important since Jesus said that you are to worship God only . Yet, Jesus receives worship and never rebukes anyone for it.

    I can love my grandparents and my parents and my brothers and sisters without regard to status and hierarchy.

    >>If Jesus is not God, then why He not correct Thomas when He was called God by Thomas who said to Jesus in John 20:28, "My Lord and my God."

    If Jesus is God, why doesn't he just say so? If Jesus is God, why does John call him the *SON* of God?

    >>You want a verse in scripture that calls Jesus God? Here you go:

    Hebrews 1:5-8 "For to which of the angels did He [God] ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him." And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire." But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom."

    I was looking for a quote from Jesus himself refering to God in the first person. A simple "I AM GOD" would work nicely. Other peoples opinions about God don't count. Who wrote Hebrews? Was it even Paul? Paul believed women should not speak in church too. Shall we believe everything he says?

    >>Jesus is called God by God. If He is not God, then why does the Father call Him God? Is the Father wrong? Is the writer of Hebrews wrong?

    Huh? According to the writers of the gospels, God called Jesus his *SON* after baptism.

    >>The SON of God is Jesus.

    And we are all sons and daughters of God.

    >>The Father, who is God, is caling the Son woh is Jesus, God. Trippy, huh?

    It's only trippy cause you won't accept that human beings put their opinions in the bible. Some of these opinions were inspired. Others were less than inspired. You refuse to see any distinction, therefor you see "trippy". I don't see it that way.

    >>Here are some things John represents Jesus as: giving eternal life (John 10:27); the bread of life (6:35,51 - an obvious allusion to the manna given by God out of heaven in 6:32-35); the way the truth and the life (14:6); the light of the world (8:12); being the 'I am" (8:5 . sharing the glory of God before creation (17:5; note that God shares His glory with no one, Isaiah 42: ; calling Jesus His own Father making Himself equal with God (John 5:1 ; receiving the same honor that you give to the Father (John 5:23); knowing all things (21:17 - something only God can do).

    All things attributeable to the Holy Spirit made flesh in the form of the Messiah. The breath of God however, is not God.

    >>And in 18:5, in the Garden of Gethsemane when Jesus answers those who came to arrest Him with the statement, "I am", they fall back to ground.

    Well guess what, "I am" too. Did you fall over yet? :)

    >>"Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am' "

    So much for preexistence being a "heresy" eh? Before I was in this body ZC, I AM too. So are you.

    >>It is clear to me that John considered Jesus, to be God in the Flesh.

    I'm not sure which John you are refering to here, whether you mean John the baptist now, or John the disciple. I think it's clear they believed Jesus to be the Messiah, and filled with the presense of the Holy Spirit. The trinity doctrine however wasn't started till hundreds of years later.
     
  18. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    drmmjr, I can not read hebrew very well, but I understand letters, and being a Messianic Jew, it comes with the territory in that our pastor offers Hebrew classes. Zech 12:10 was one such verse he used as an example, and later with my own research I once looked up the hebrew words specifically written to see and understand what it was I thought was very confusing: that somehow it can only be translated as Me, and then somehow (and illogically) the pronoun switches to Me:

    aleph lamed yud (on Me)

    ayin lamed (kamatz) yud vav (for Him)

    The kamatz changes the tense altogether - and in the original Hebrew before the vowel kamatz was invented, a dot is listed above the lamed, also changing the tense. Many translators that choose to reject it do so on the basis of it not making sense and they reason that it was copyer error. But what those particular scholars fail to realize is that all the texts we do have, there is a dot above the lamed that changes the tense in all the copies available. Of course this tense doesn't make sense if you have a bias concerning doctrine, but the copeyer that put it there obviously didn't put their bias into it as it it probably remained confusing for him, but for him to change the scripture one little jot would amount to blasphemy on his part as he copied it.



     
  19. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Micheal to get back on topic, John chapter 1 makes it clear that the logos is Jesus..check verse 17-18 or verses 15 in accordance with 30..it was pretty clear John was bluntly saying Jesus is God. Oh..and you might was to read Acts 17:11 ;) its about Paul.
     
  20. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    +21
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    US-Republican
    I am sorry you ffel that accepting the Bible's original autographs is considered worship. It isn't, but you refuse to be told otherwise. Just know that I do consider it inspired by God, and I do not worship it. Maybe I am just the exceptiojn to the rule.. but there it is.

    Only in your mind, dude. I can accept is as inspired and not worship it. Just becasue you can't firgure out how doesn't mean i can't.. it just means you don't understand. Og and indeed I DO NOT accept I am Bible worshipping. Nuff said. I am really getting tired of you claiming I say or beleive things I don't.

    Based upon your perception. They do not contradict.. you just think they do. Noting i can do about that. You could ignore what you think and accept what I say, and trust what I say, but you don't.

    Becasue it isn't Bible worship.

    That's probably becasue I do not see the contradiction. You have made it up in your head.

    Exactly.. just aonthe guy with an opinion. I have said what I said. you don't agree.. fine.. keep it to yourself then.

    Yep.. sure do. Deal with it. I claim it infallible, and that claim, I do not do for the sake of the Bible, but for the sake of who inspired it. If any worship is going on, I am worshipping God, who inspired the thing, not the thing it self. Just drop it Michael.

    [qoute]It's like saying blue is red[/quote]

    No, its like saying Blue is perfect.. yet I don't worship blue.

    Again.. I repest myself for the blind.. I do beleive it.. I do not beleive it as you beleive it.

    Does not! Oh, and my God can beat up your god!

    Actually John makes it clear that both are true. Heh, go figure.. John, a beleiver in the Trinity. Whoa!

    You are worng about that.. but whatever.. I can say the same thing to you.

    Becasue there isn't one.. you made it up.

    And this has nothing to do with my question... and I have repeatdls sai the opposite of what you accuse me of. Again you lie. AND, if everyone read my posts, instead of trusting what you say about me, they would see that you are woirnhg about what you claim I beleive and they would sede that I do not accept Genocide as God's will.

    Not useful to oyu, becasu you do not understand. BUt i di giv you a definition.

    That you give up.

    Tn eone I have on my desk.. yes. The inspired message that constitutes it? No.

    Thoruhg inspiration! Please, class, pay attention.

    No.. through inspiration of God.

    Me to. He also insists God is other things as well.. but Love is one of them.

    That's up for debate all over this board.

    Tis true.

    Explain what That God is more than Love, and able to commit an act that is not about love, but about somehting else, like Justice?

    An silly me, I thought originally you understood the difference in meaning when a Christian says "word" in reference to the Bible, and "word" in reference to Jesus. Later I found out that you did not know this, so I educated you. Now you know that I do not think The Bible is alive.


    :) ROFL! :) Dude.. whatever... He did not... and FYI.. the SOn of God was Jesus, not the Holy Spirit. I also assumed you knew I beleved that... guess not.

    Does to! (Does not. Does to. My God can beat up your god.)

    Ok Class.. together now.. "That Union is not Godhood."

    Great then.. I elivate the union to a fellowship with God, which we all can have.. and that, does not in-validate the Trinity. YAY!

    What ever you said here.. don't repeat it.

    This coming form someone who thinks God is a woman. And, yes it is about relationship! That what the "oneness" is about... sheesh. Having a relationship with God does not make us God, it did not make Jesus God. Jesus was already God.

    Again.. I never siad this. The Holy Spirit doid not acsend from the Son to the Son... He ascended form the Father to the Son.

    Right.. the answers that aren't answers.. I remember those...

    You do to. You claim that Jesus is not the Word, and thuse claim that teh Word did not come as Flesh. Since John teaches that the Word is Jesus, you then imply that Jesus (The Word that existed before time) did not come in the Flesh, but rather that Jesus bacem it after some period of time. What am I suggesting? That your teachings and theology are in the Spirit of the Anti-Christ. You are a false prophet, know it or not.

    Yes I am. Yes He was. Yes He did. Yes it is.

    Well, there hasn't been any evidence to deny they are Johns writings, and there is alot of evidence to support that they are. Honest research.. we have it.. so was can accept it. Moving on...

    I don't ijnterprate them.. I accept them for what they say. I think Johnmeant what he wrote, and wrote what he meant.

    The writer of the book of John! come on.. stay in the game.

    Nice dodge.. heh.

    I know.. I brougt it up. That is the definition of "word" you are using. ANd as far as labeling you.. I didn't, I just compared you to them.

    Two things here Michael 1, The Holy Spirit id ont the Word. 2. The Holy Spirit is not of God.. The Holy Spirit is God.

    Not!

    two things: Jesis is the Word and How could Jesus exist before He was born, unless He was God?

    Sounds like the Anti-Christ to me. Where did you dream up this? It isn't in the Bible...

    Yeah.. umm.. that's fine and all.. but answer the question.. If Jesus isn't God, then why is He worshipped?

    A. Why not answer the question? B. Jesus did refer to Himself as God. C. Becasue Jesus is the Son of God.

    Hm.. well, sorry to Dissapoint you.

    Ohh that's right.. if scripture does not agree with oyu, it is false.. I forgot.. my bad.

    Well, sorry but I disagree with you. The bble validates itself, thorugh a MIracle of God. You only thnk parts of it are inspired by God becasue if the whole ting was, you know you would go to Hell.

    To bad you can't back this up with proof eh?

    Nope.. you must not be God.

    Sorry, but you didn't exsit before God created you. Jesus on the other hand wa never created.

    The writer of the Book john! sheesh. John think s Jesus is God. Sorry, but he does. No amount of "rationalizing will change that.
     
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