Does righteousness ...

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

Correction:

17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the lawless;

2 Peter 3:17
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Nothing about losing salvation.

Just a warning to hold fast the gospel of salvation which is just by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His shed blood.

 

[ananda]

2 Peter 3:17
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Nothing about losing salvation.

Just a warning to hold fast the gospel of salvation which is just by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His shed blood.

I believe that the use of the word "destruction" in 2Pet 3:16 refers to spiritual destruction, e.g. losing salvation.

As for 2Pet 3:17, it's unfortunate (and perhaps borderline negligent) that most mainstream translations hide its significance and meaning by translating it "error of the wicked" when the Greek more accurately means "error of the lawless".

The author of 2Pet was warning the untaught and unstable against twisting the Scriptures and Paul's words to fall from their steadfastness in Messiah by following the doctrines & error of the anti-Law/lawless.

 

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

I believe that the use of the word "destruction" in 2Pet 3:16 refers to spiritual destruction, e.g. losing salvation.

As for 2Pet 3:17, it's unfortunate (and perhaps borderline negligent) that most mainstream translations hide its significance and meaning by translating it "error of the wicked" when the Greek more accurately means "error of the lawless".

The author of 2Pet was warning the untaught and unstable against twisting the Scriptures and Paul's words to fall from their steadfastness in Messiah by following the doctrines & error of the anti-Law/lawless.

In 2 Peter 3:16 destruction may indeed mean damnation, but for the unsaved who do not accept the gospel of salvation that Paul preached and declared.
But the saved are not included in that as explained in verse 17. They may end up subverted but not damned.

But what is truly amazing is that you are trying to establish doctrine by Peter's comment and your editorial. Peter said read Paul and you are quoting Peter. So the destruction in 2 Peter 3:16 seems to refer to you.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I noticed you did not respond to my response.

Also, remember it was my turn to ask questions.

What do you think is the doctrine of the Nicolaitans?

I answered. Now your turn.

Would make for an interesting thread

http://www.christianforums.com/t7433215/
Nicolaitans

Acts 6:5 And pleases the Word before all the multitude, and they choose stefanon, a man full of faith and Spirit, holy, and filippon, and procoron, and nikanora, and timwna, and parmenan, and nikolaon, a proselyte/pro-shluton <4339> of antiocea

Reve 2:6 But this thou are having. That thou are hating the works of the Nicolaitans/nikolaitwn <3531> which I also am hating.

Reve 2:15 Thusly are having also thou ones holding the teaching of the Nicolaitans/nikolaitwn <3531> likewise [*which I hating]
7 The one having ear let him hear! what the spirit is saying to the out-calleds.
To the one conquering/nikwnti <3528> (5723)


.

 

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

Would make for an interesting thread

http://www.christianforums.com/t7433215/
Nicolaitans

Acts 6:5 And pleases the Word before all the multitude, and they choose stefanon, a man full of faith and Spirit, holy, and filippon, and procoron, and nikanora, and timwna, and parmenan, and nikolaon, a proselyte/pro-shluton <4339> of antiocea

Reve 2:6 But this thou are having. That thou are hating the works of the Nicolaitans/nikolaitwn <3531> which I also am hating.

Reve 2:15 Thusly are having also thou ones holding the teaching of the Nicolaitans/nikolaitwn <3531> likewise [*which I hating]
7 The one having ear let him hear! what the spirit is saying to the out-calleds.
To the one conquering/nikwnti <3528> (5723)


.

It would make a good thread.
I clicked on the link and read the post.
I agree that that is what the Nicolaitans are.

 

[ananda]

In 2 Peter 3:16 destruction may indeed mean damnation, but for the unsaved who do not accept the gospel of salvation that Paul preached and declared.
But the saved are not included in that as explained in verse 17. They may end up subverted but not damned.

But what is truly amazing is that you are trying to establish doctrine by Peter's comment and your editorial. Peter said read Paul and you are quoting Peter. So the destruction in 2 Peter 3:16 seems to refer to you.

I'm trying to establish doctrine by Peter's comment and my editorial, but you aren't? Truly amazing!

2Peter was written to those "that have obtained like precious faith with us" (1:1). It was undoubtedly not written for unbelievers.

Like it or not, the destruction is reserved for the untaught and unstable who twist the Scriptures to follow the error of the lawless.

 

[Jack Terrence]

I'm trying to establish doctrine by Peter's comment and my editorial, but you aren't? Truly amazing!

2Peter was written to those "that have obtained like precious faith with us" (1:1). It was undoubtedly not written for unbelievers.

Like it or not, the destruction is reserved for the untaught and unstable who twist the Scriptures to follow the error of the lawless.

Peter clearly distinguishes between Christians and apostates. Note the first person (you, us), and third person (they, them).

Nothing Peter says about them (apostates) applies to us (Christians).

 

[ananda]

Peter clearly distinguishes between Christians and apostates. Note the first person (you, us), and third person (they, them).

Nothing Peter says about them (apostates) applies to us (Christians).

"they" - the unlearned and unstable ... fell from their own stedfastness. Therefore, they were once lawful believers, but after being "led away" by the error of the lawless, they fell to their own destruction.

The fact that "they" are referenced as "falling" and "led away" from stedfastness tells me that they once stood stedfastly. "They" were once lawful believers.

 

[sdowney717]

Peter clearly distinguishes between Christians and apostates. Note the first person (you, us), and third person (they, them).

Nothing Peter says about them (apostates) applies to us (Christians).

Part of understanding this has to do with how someone defines a christian believer.
Apostates are doomed to hell fire. It matters not what they claimed to have been before, saved whatever. Heb 10 talks of such persons who fall back from following Him and are doomed to perdition. Matthew Henry commentary supports that view perfectly.

From Heb 10 :26 to 39 is talking of these ones

But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

Christian believers who are elect of God to salvation, who are the sheep, are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation and not destruction.
In the broad community, some are masquerading as christians but by their works deny Him. Their works are not of an attempt to godly, good works, these are works of sin and of the flesh, such things as including sexual immorality, etc...

Some here push the idea 'but in works deny Him' as an attempt to godly living by good works and failing to rely on grace for salvation, but the scripture context is not in agreement with them.

The meaning here is they deny the cross, they do not take up their cross and follow after Christ.

Titus 1

13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.

16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

Excerpt from Matthew Henry commentary regarding these apostates.

4. From the description we have in the scripture of the nature of God&#8217;s vindictive justice, Heb. 10:30. We know that he has said, Vengeance is mine. This is taken out of Ps. 94:1; Vengeance belongs unto me. The terrors of the Lord are known both by revelation and reason.

Vindictive justice is a glorious, though terrible attribute of God; it belongs to him, and he will use and execute it upon the heads of such sinners as despise his grace; he will avenge himself, and his Son, and Spirit, and covenant, upon apostates. And how dreadful then will their case be!

The other quotation is from Deut. 32:36; The Lord will judge his people; he will search and try his visible church, and will discover and detect those who say they are Jews, and are not, but are of the synagogue of Satan; and he will separate the precious from the vile, and will punish the sinners in Zion with the greatest severity

. Now those who know him who hath said, Vengeance belongeth to me, I will recompense, must needs conclude, as the apostle does (Heb. 10:31): It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Those who know the joy that results from the favour of God can thereby judge of the power and dread of his vindictive wrath. Observe here, What will be the eternal misery of impenitent sinners and apostates: they shall fall into the hands of the living God; their punishment shall come from God&#8217;s own hand. He takes them into the hand of his justice; he will deal with them himself; their greatest misery will be the immediate impressions of divine wrath on the soul. When he punishes them by creatures, the instrument abates something of the force of the blow; but, when he does it by his own hand, it is infinite misery. This they shall have at God&#8217;s hand, they shall lie down in sorrow; their destruction shall come from his glorious powerful presence; when they make their woeful bed in hell, they will find that God is there, and his presence will be their greatest terror and torment. And he is a living God; he lives for ever, and will punish for ever.

 

[Jack Terrence]

"they" - the unlearned and unstable ... fell from their own stedfastness. Therefore, they were once lawful believers, but after being "led away" by the error of the lawless, they fell to their own destruction.

The fact that "they" are referenced as "falling" and "led away" from stedfastness tells me that they once stood stedfastly. "They" were once lawful believers.

"They" were NOT Christians. That you would say that "their own" steadfastness implies that they were once saved is quite a leap in logic.

That you would say that their having fallen from "their own" steadfastness proves that they once stood steadfastly is just too funny.

It tells me that they were NOT steadfast. If they fell from "their own" steadfastness, then "their own" steadfastness was not true steadfastness.

Peter said that they were as the "sow that was washed" which "returns to wallowing in the mud." An outward washing CANNOT be compared to the inward washing of regeneration. They had an encounter with the truth which could produce some reformation for a little while, but not an inward and lasting transformation.

Can you come up with an argument that has some real substance?

 

[ananda]

Nm.

 

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

Nm.

The Lord Jesus Christ said:

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

I believe that the use of the word "destruction" in 2Pet 3:16 refers to spiritual destruction, e.g. losing salvation.

No. Clearly a reference back to 3:7 and the destruction of the wicked, which can be cross referenced back to 2:6 corresponding with Jude 7 and Sodom & Gomorrah.

The idea is of eternal judgment and punishment for the false prophets which are discussed in 2 Peter 2:1-22. The relation is not of falling away, but of utter wickedness.

You may as well argue that those in Romans 1:21 fell away. The same terminology is used for them regarding natural relations as those in Jude 7, so the biblical picture is wickedness, not that they were once good and then fell. Poor argumentation.

As for 2Pet 3:17, it's unfortunate (and perhaps borderline negligent) that most mainstream translations hide its significance and meaning by translating it "error of the wicked" when the Greek more accurately means "error of the lawless".

The author of 2Pet was warning the untaught and unstable against twisting the Scriptures and Paul's words to fall from their steadfastness in Messiah by following the doctrines & error of the anti-Law/lawless.

Actually the ESV translates "lawless"...

Yes you are right regarding Peter's warning, but understand the context of it; he is warning those who are but recent converts and infants in the faith to not delve into the deeper and often misunderstood issues by the false teachers so as to twist them and pervert them, becoming false teachers themselves. This is the definition of an apostate, one who professes Christ and yet forsakes that which he professed.

Again, your argument is quite weak if you are trying to show that one can become "unjustified".

 

[ananda]

The Lord Jesus Christ said:

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Actually, He said

&#7936;&#956;&#8052;&#957; &#7936;&#956;&#8052;&#957; &#955;&#8051;&#947;&#969; &#8017;&#956;&#8150;&#957; &#8001; &#960;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#8059;&#969;&#957; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7952;&#956;&#8050;, &#7956;&#967;&#949;&#953; &#950;&#969;&#8052;&#957; &#945;&#7984;&#8061;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;

If the present tenses of the verbs were more clearly revealed, it would be more accurately rendered:

Truly, truly I say to you, He that continues-to-be-believing/faithful on me has everlasting life.

 

[ananda]

No. Clearly a reference back to 3:7 and the destruction of the wicked, which can be cross referenced back to 2:6 corresponding with Jude 7 and Sodom & Gomorrah.

The idea is of eternal judgment and punishment for the false prophets which are discussed in 2 Peter 2:1-22. The relation is not of falling away, but of utter wickedness.

You may as well argue that those in Romans 1:21 fell away. The same terminology is used for them regarding natural relations as those in Jude 7, so the biblical picture is wickedness, not that they were once good and then fell. Poor argumentation.

Actually the ESV translates "lawless"...

Yes you are right regarding Peter's warning, but understand the context of it; he is warning those who are but recent converts and infants in the faith to not delve into the deeper and often misunderstood issues by the false teachers so as to twist them and pervert them, becoming false teachers themselves. This is the definition of an apostate, one who professes Christ and yet forsakes that which he professed.

Again, your argument is quite weak if you are trying to show that one can become "unjustified".

Destruction of the lawless - not wicked. Jude speaks of those sinners e.g. those who transgress the Law.

I do not subscribe to OSAS.

I'm not commenting on Romans.

 

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

Actually, He said

&#7936;&#956;&#8052;&#957; &#7936;&#956;&#8052;&#957; &#955;&#941;&#947;&#969; &#8017;&#956;&#8150;&#957; &#8001; &#960;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#973;&#969;&#957; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7952;&#956;&#8050;, &#7956;&#967;&#949;&#953; &#950;&#969;&#8052;&#957; &#945;&#7984;&#974;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;

If the present tenses of the verbs were more clearly revealed, it would be more accurately rendered:

Truly, truly I say to you, He that continues-to-be-believing/faithful on me has everlasting life.

Where did you get the Greek words that you quoted?
What Greek dictionary are you using?

I have it already in English which I gave to you.

 

[ananda]

Where did you get the Greek words that you quoted?
What Greek dictionary are you using?

I have it already in English which I gave to you.

The Greek words are from the TR/MT book of John.

I'm using Vine's dictionary and Liddell-Robert-Scott's Lexicon.

The English translation you quoted hid the significance of the Greek present tense of &#960;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#8059;&#969;&#957; which shows that one must endure in faith/faithfulness/trust/obedience.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Actually, He said

&#7936;&#956;&#8052;&#957; &#7936;&#956;&#8052;&#957; &#955;&#941;&#947;&#969; &#8017;&#956;&#8150;&#957; &#8001; &#960;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#973;&#969;&#957; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7952;&#956;&#8050;, &#7956;&#967;&#949;&#953; &#950;&#969;&#8052;&#957; &#945;&#7984;&#974;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;

If the present tenses of the verbs were more clearly revealed, it would be more accurately rendered:

Truly, truly I say to you, He that continues-to-be-believing/faithful on me has everlasting life.

Can you parse this text to show that is the understanding?

 

[ananda]

Can you parse this text to show that is the understanding?

I don't do homework for others

 

[Jack Terrence]

Actually, He said

&#7936;&#956;&#8052;&#957; &#7936;&#956;&#8052;&#957; &#955;&#8051;&#947;&#969; &#8017;&#956;&#8150;&#957; &#8001; &#960;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#8059;&#969;&#957; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7952;&#956;&#8050;, &#7956;&#967;&#949;&#953; &#950;&#969;&#8052;&#957; &#945;&#7984;&#8061;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;

If the present tenses of the verbs were more clearly revealed, it would be more accurately rendered:

Truly, truly I say to you, He that continues-to-be-believing/faithful on me has everlasting life.

Peter said,

"Kept by the POWER of God through FAITH unto salvation...."