Does one need to be baptized in order to be saved?

[iamjcs]

Some say you must be baptized in order to be saved. Others say although baptism is very important, it is not imperative in order to be saved. What say you?

Baptism does NOT equal salvation
NOR is it imperitative for salvation.

Jesus told the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise" yet he was unable to be baptised.

Baptism is an outward act showing to all what has already happened inside & helps hold us accountable.

 

[JerryChristian]

The physical act of being put into the water is an announcement of faith to the world. The spiritual act of being baptized and cleaned is the key here.

So you say that if I am baptized it means I am saved and I am announcing my faith to the world. What if I have no faith, but just get baptised because everyone else is doing it? And where does baptism equal cleaning, won't a bath do the same thing?

 

[JerryChristian]

I may be wrong on this, but from what people keep telling me, the basic gist is that Sacraments, all of them, help us to accept God. We are baptized and receive His Holy Spirit through chrismation. We receive Holy Communion. Those, and all of the other Sacraments help to draw us closer to God and to help us become closer with him, even though we are wretched things. I think that anyone who can be received into the Church and baptized should. I do not think that a person must be baptized to be saved. Is a miscarried child baptized? No. Is that child saved? I can't see a reason why he/she wouldn't be.

Sorry, but I do not buy your premise. Sacramenst do not help us to accept God. In fact if we haven't accepted God already we should be barred from receiving the sacraments. What is chrismation? The sacraments have very specific purposes, what are they? How does one get received into the church? Believers are the church, it is not your building or method of worship! Now, many believe that the rite of baptism is not required for those who have not reached an age of accountability! That answers your child in the womb reference, doesn't it?

 

[JerryChristian]

Baptism does NOT equal salvation
NOR is it imperitative for salvation.

Jesus told the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise" yet he was unable to be baptised.

Baptism is an outward act showing to all what has already happened inside & helps hold us accountable.

Many say that the thief on the cross was still under Old Testament law and that baptism followed only after the death of Jesus.

By the way, I'm not saying I agree or disagree.

I'm asking that you explain your position!

 

[Bridgit]

Baptism does not save. It is only a testimony to the world that we have been buried to our old life and raise to our new life in Christ.

There are many scriptures that show that it is through Christ that we are saved. It is through Him that we received eternal life.

Eph 1:7
Luke 2:11
Heb 10:19
Rom 3:24
John 3:16
John 6:40
Rom 5:9
Rom 8:10-11
Rom 10:4
1 John 5:11
...

It is His blood shed on the cross that washes away our sins forever, not a dive in the water.

There is nothing we can do physically that can save us. We owe is all to Him.

Praise God!

 

[cougan]

In the original greek text the word was "immerse." Do you agree with that?

Also, I would caution you that it is worthwhile to listen to other opinions because they may have an insight to scriptures that you are lacking! People who think that they have the only and most truthful interpretation of the Bible are very often wrong! Long held beliefs by many church members are nothing more than traditional beliefs passed from generation to generation. Many are taught by well meaning Christian teachers who have not the knowledge to make their claims. Are you 100% certain that you are right?

Absolutly. The baptism or baptized in transliteration instead of tranlation from the Greek. The best English word for baptism or batized is immerison, which is why it views a burial with Christ. Sprinking or pouring will not work because there are different Greek word for that.

I do not claim to know it all, I am always listening and growing, but the truth about baptism being neccessary is overwhellming because it taught over and over again.

 

[JerryChristian]

Baptism does not save. It is only a testimony to the world that we have been buried to our old life and raise to our new life in Christ.

There are many scriptures that show that it is through Christ that we are saved. It is through Him that we received eternal life.

Eph 1:7
Luke 2:11
Heb 10:19
Rom 3:24
John 3:16
John 6:40
Rom 5:9
Rom 8:10-11
Rom 10:4
1 John 5:11
...

It is His blood shed on the cross that washes away our sins forever, not a dive in the water.

There is nothing we can do physically that can save us. We owe is all to Him.

Praise God!

Bridgit, I did not read all of your Scriptural references, but I can say that you are correct! Good job!

 

[cougan]

By the way, are there exceptions that God can make, and will He make those exceptions?

And is the method of baptism more important than the condition of the heart towards God?

Are people who propose that one must be baptized in order to be saved over-reaching the Biblical authority?

Great questions J.C.

1. Whether God chooses to make exceptions or not is not up to me to decide, but if He did it would be the exception and not the rule, which goes right back to what I said, how does the remote possibility of a exception apply to you and the majority that can obey the truth, but refuse to and are hoping God will make exception?

2. If the condition of your heart is not right you will never be baptized. You need to read what I wrote again because I did not say that baptism saves you by itself and it not more important than anything else the Bibles says saves you. If you do not believe you are not saved, if you do not repent, or confess you are not saved. If you are not baptized for the remission of your sin you are not saved.

3. No more than someone saying you must believe repent or confess. Since they are all authorized in the NT and state that they save, you cannot over-reach Biblical authority. The only way I could over-reach Biblical authority is if I added or took away something the Bible does not authorize. So, to say that baptism is not necessary to be saved even though Peter says it is 1 Pet. 3:21, then it over-reaching or should under-reaching Biblical authority.

First of all what is babtism?

Baptism is immersion and the based on the conversions in Acts, we are talking about immersion in water.

Second, you only assume that the thief on the cross was previously baptized by John. Where is your Scriptural proof?

I did not assume anything, I only said it was possible. I cannot prove he was baptized with John’s baptism no more than you can prove he wasn’t. The one verse that makes it possible that he was baptized is:

Matthew 3:5 Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him 6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.

Third Jesus says in Matthew 10:32 and 33 that he who confesses Him before men He will confess before the Father.

Rom. 10:9-10 It states that one who believes in his heart and confesses with his mouth will be saved. Why did the gospel writer leave out baptism?

Why did he leave it our repentance? Lk. 13:3
Why did Peter only mention baptism in:

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us – baptism

The reason is because we are to go by the whole counsel of God. When the writer talk about what save us that don’t mention everything in one verse. We can see this in four gospels. When we study them all we can put all the pieces of the puzzle together to see the full picture of what was going on. Belief and confession are necessary to be saved, but not by themselves, because we must repent and be baptized. Since baptisms is for the forgiveness of sins Acts 2:38 how could you be saved without it?

Why was Jesus baptized? He certainly did not sin, and had nothing to repent for. He needed no remission of sins, because He was sinless!

He did it to fulfill all righteousness (Mt. 3:15). No he did not need John’s baptism for the forgiveness of His sins because as you said, He had none, but Jesus was obedient to Father and since the baptism John commanded was from heaven Jesus submitted to show His obedience to the Father. Also, it was done to show John that Jesus was the Lamb of God/ Son of God:

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 "This is He of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.' 31 "I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water." 32 And John bore witness, saying, "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. 33 "I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.' 34 "And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God."

Besides these facts, you cannot use Jesus’ baptism as your example either because we are not baptized with John’s baptism today.

I do not want to offend you, but I am attempting to show you a more excellent way. I firmly believe that almost every denomination that originated from the doctrinal differences over baptism have gotten it wrong. My purpose is to cause you to dig a little deeper! Quit teaching the doctrines of men and really see what the Scriptures say. Most of us have been taught garbage that causes division in the church over this very subject! I've had to study this out in much prayer to be able to shed light on this divisive issue! Having said that, I'm not going to give you the conclusion yet, because I want you to reasonably question where you could be wrong!

That is why I am asking you some very leading questions, in order to provoke you to think beyond what you have already been taught.

You cannot offend me. Your opinions will not make me angry because I know what the Word of God says on this matter. Your telling me stop teaching the doctrines of men, but I am not. I showed what the Bible says over and over again. Why can’t you understand the Scriptures. For example:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins;

Baptism is FOR the remission or forgiveness of sin. Do you think you can be save without your sins being forgiven?

Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.


Jesus not a mere man says that belief and baptism are necessary to be saved. Some will try baptism out of the picture because the last statement on mentions belief, but you not grammatically do that. Besides belief is the only thing that needed to be said because if you will not believe you will not do anything else such as repent, confess or be baptized.

I showed you how Saul did all things you say are necessary be saved, yet he was still lost because his sins were not forgiven, which proves Acts 2:38 as:

Acts 22:16 'And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

I showed you how baptism is the only way we can be put into Christ and be buried with Him and raised a new creature (Rom. 6; Gal. 3:27; Col. 2:12-13). We must be in Christ to have salvation and forgiveness of sins:

Ephesians 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

Here you a new one:

Ephesians 5:23 Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

Jesus will only save those that are in the body/church. How does one get into the church?

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

We have to baptized into the church, if we are not then we will not be saved. When we are baptized it God that adds us to His church Acts 2:47.

After reading your statement, let me ask you!

Has Jesus lost the power to forgive sins now that He has ascended to the Father?

Jesus forgives sins through His blood. Since He is not on the earth walking in human form, He does not go around telling people that their sins are forgiven. That unique time is over and we are told how to get forgiveness of our sins through Jesus’ blood by obeying God’s plan of salvation with baptism being the last part of the process in which have our sins washed away by blood of Jesus.

The Bible accounts that the three men on the cross all died. It does not give a definite timeline of who died first. Suppose the thief died last, after Jesus died, was he saved?

Actually, you are wrong. Jesus died first because He was already dead when they went to break their legs. Since Jesus told Him he would be paradise with Him does not matter if the thief died shortly after Jesus’ death it was going to happen. Again, read my post the thief could not have been obeyed the baptism Jesus commanded because the thief died long before Jesus commanded it, so the thief of the cross example cannot be used as example for us today.

I hope you will apply your own advice to yourself. Notice what the Scriptures say and stop looking for man-made doctrines that will justify you not being baptized.

One last thought. You never mentioned repentance as being necessary for salvation. Do you think it necessary or optional?

 

[cougan]

Baptism does not save. It is only a testimony to the world that we have been buried to our old life and raise to our new life in Christ.

There are many scriptures that show that it is through Christ that we are saved. It is through Him that we received eternal life.

Eph 1:7
Luke 2:11
Heb 10:19
Rom 3:24
John 3:16
John 6:40
Rom 5:9
Rom 8:10-11
Rom 10:4
1 John 5:11
...

It is His blood shed on the cross that washes away our sins forever, not a dive in the water.

There is nothing we can do physically that can save us. We owe is all to Him.

Praise God!

No one denies that we are saved through Jesus and His blood. The question is how? If we take your thought to its bitter end then everyone is saved not matter what they do since their is no action on our part to be saved.

Yet Jesus said:

John 14:15 " If you love Me, keep My commandments.

Also Paul warned us in:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

If we want to be saved we need obey the commands of God with baptism being one of them (Mk. 16:16; Acts 2:38). Where do you get your idea that baptism is testimony that we are already saved?

How could the Bible say that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins if we are already saved before we are baptized?

You are right about one thing, is nothing we can do to earn or merit our salvation, but we can accept it by having an obedient faith to God. As I said in earlier post, baptism is not a work of man, but a work of God.

Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

 

[Stinker]

The meaning of water baptism has never changed from it's first use by John the Baptist: John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance unto the remission of sins. (Mk.1:4)




And then by Jesus:


John 3:22-26 (New International Version)

22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized. 24(This was before John was put in prison.) 25An argument developed between some of John's disciples and a certain Jew[a] over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26They came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—well, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him."



John 4:1-2 (New International Version)

1The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, 2although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On Pentecost, everyone who was a follower of John the Baptist, had to get re-baptized into the name of Jesus in order to show that they were now followers of Him. However, everyone who was water baptized by Jesus (or any of His disciples) did not have to be re-baptized.

According to the doctrine of 'water baptism salvation' everyone who had been water baptized by Jesus, or any of His disciples, would have had to have been re-baptized because there was no church, or body (physical or spiritual) for those converts to have been baptized into, before that Pentecost morning.

 

[trentlogain2]

I stopped by a Christian bookstore in my area today and browsed around a few minutes until I got to the back of the store and noticed the wall full of tracts. A particular one caught my eye which said something about baptism. I asked the worker who was nearby what church he was affiliated with, and he told me The Church of Christ.

I know I've already posted my opinion in this thread, but I saw it again, and what happened to me today sprang to my mind. I pray for unity and the body of Christ to be in one accord, but I'm also told in Galatians (1:8) to let anyone who preaches anything other than grace to me..let him be accursed.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

I was going to answer this question, but bliz already said it.

 

[cougan]

The meaning of water baptism has never changed from it's first use by John the Baptist: John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance unto the remission of sins. (Mk.1:4)




And then by Jesus:


John 3:22-26 (New International Version)

22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized. 24(This was before John was put in prison.) 25An argument developed between some of John's disciples and a certain Jew[a] over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26They came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—well, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him."



John 4:1-2 (New International Version)

1The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, 2although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On Pentecost, everyone who was a follower of John the Baptist, had to get re-baptized into the name of Jesus in order to show that they were now followers of Him. However, everyone who was water baptized by Jesus (or any of His disciples) did not have to be re-baptized.

According to the doctrine of 'water baptism salvation' everyone who had been water baptized by Jesus, or any of His disciples, would have had to have been re-baptized because there was no church, or body (physical or spiritual) for those converts to have been baptized into, before that Pentecost morning.

Yes, John's baptism was for repentance for the remission of sins, and his baptism was with water, which is similair to the baptism Jesus commanded, but the differnece is that Jesus commanded that we be baptized into the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Mt. 28:19) Literally it saying be baptized into the possesion of the GodHead. While John's baptism made was for the forgivensss of sin, the baptism Jesus commaded was for the forgiveness of sin and it made you a son of God.

Those that were baptized with John's baptism had to be rebaptized with baptism commanded by Jesus as found in:

Acts 19:1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

It is up for debate, but some says that if a person was baptized with Johns' baptism before Christ died, then all they had to do was to belive on Jesus, but anybody baptized after Jesus' death with John's baptism, they had to rebaptized. It does'nt really matter what you belive on on this because this another area that would not apply to us today because that special transition time from John's baptism to the one Jesus commanded is over and can be used to apply to anyone today.

 

[cougan]

I stopped by a Christian bookstore in my area today and browsed around a few minutes until I got to the back of the store and noticed the wall full of tracts. A particular one caught my eye which said something about baptism. I asked the worker who was nearby what church he was affiliated with, and he told me The Church of Christ.

I know I've already posted my opinion in this thread, but I saw it again, and what happened to me today sprang to my mind. I pray for unity and the body of Christ to be in one accord, but I'm also told in Galatians (1:8) to let anyone who preaches anything other than grace to me..let him be accursed.

Gal. 1:8 does not say what you have written it says:

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

We are to stick with the whole councel of God and not pervert including God's grace. When we start taking things away from God's plan of salvation, such as baptism, then this passages applies because a different gospel is being preached.

 

[Stinker]

Yes, John's baptism was for repentance for the remission of sins, and his baptism was with water, which is similair to the baptism Jesus commanded, but the differnece is that Jesus commanded that we be baptized into the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Mt. 28:19) Literally it saying be baptized into the possesion of the GodHead. While John's baptism made was for the forgivensss of sin, the baptism Jesus commaded was for the forgiveness of sin and it made you a son of God. [cougan post #33]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


John's water baptism was not unto the remission of sins. It was the water baptism of repentance (the mental and/or physical acts of repentance itself) that was unto the remission of one's sins that the baptism pictured. Jesus' water baptism of new converts was also for a person having repented unto the remission of sins. The meaning of water baptism has not changed since John and Jesus water baptized their converts, only John's name had dropped out of authority

 

[RedPhoenix]

So, for those who do not know of God, are they saved? I see no difference between a child who dies and a person who has not been told of God, and therefore does not know what must be done in order to be saved.

Also, in terms of the accountability thing, that's definitely ridiculous. Please forgive me, but that sounds like the Catholic practice of waiting for a child to grow up in order that he may receive the Sacraments.

And when I said that they help us to accept God, I do not mean accept that He exists. You're right when you say that if we do not accept God (meaning that we have accepted Him as our Creator, our Judge, our Salvation, etc) that we should not receive the Sacraments. But, the same sun that softens butter hardens clay. The Sacraments can help us to bear being in God's presence, or they will harden our hearts. God willing, they will help us to bear His presence when we die. That was the point that I was making- that the Sacraments should help to soften us like butter. And if they are taken in the wrong way,or without preparation, they will harden our hearts towards God.

 

[cougan]

Yes, John's baptism was for repentance for the remission of sins, and his baptism was with water, which is similair to the baptism Jesus commanded, but the differnece is that Jesus commanded that we be baptized into the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Mt. 28:19) Literally it saying be baptized into the possesion of the GodHead. While John's baptism made was for the forgivensss of sin, the baptism Jesus commaded was for the forgiveness of sin and it made you a son of God. [cougan post #33]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


John's water baptism was not unto the remission of sins. It was the water baptism of repentance (the mental and/or physical acts of repentance itself) that was unto the remission of one's sins that the baptism pictured. Jesus' water baptism of new converts was also for a person having repented unto the remission of sins. The meaning of water baptism has not changed since John and Jesus water baptized their converts, only John's name had dropped out of authority

Sound like to me you are saying that a person is saved after they repent and that baptism is something you to to show your salvaltion. If that is what you are saying, the Scriptures prove you wrong.

First their is the obvious, which I have already pointed out such Acts 2:38, which states that we must repent AND be bapatied FOR the forgiveness of sins. Or Jesus saying we have believe AND be BAPTIZED to be SAVED Mk. 16:16 or Peter who clearly states that BAPTISM saves us 1
Pet. 3:21.

Have you proven these verses wrong or explained them away someway? No, because you cannot. I can prove from the Scripture that there is something more than repentance that has to be done to be saved, namely baptism.

WHEN DOES ONE TURN TO THE LORD?​

​

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.



Acts 2:38 Acts 3:19

Repent ------------------------ Repent

Be Baptized ----------------- Turn Again

Remission of Sins ----------- Sins Blotted Out
Gift of the Holy Spirit------- Seasons of Refreshing

Notice there are two seperate things here repentace and turn again. What is that other thing that is noted as "turn again so your sins may be blotted out"? It is baptism just like Acts 2:38 teaches.

Luke also seperates the idea of repentance and forgiveness of sin in:

Acts 5:31 "Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Yes John's baptism was the same as Jesus commanded in many ways such as being commanded by God, an immersion in water, carried out by man, and it was for the forgiveness of sin.

Mark 1:4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

It was called baptism of repentance becaue the people would confess their sins before they were baptized.

Matthew 3:5 Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him 6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.
​

The difference between the baptism of John and the baptism Jesus commanded was that the baptism Jesus commanded did not go into effect until after His death and it was to be done in the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit Mt. 28:19. Only the baptism Jesus commanded was designed to unite you with Christ death and make be raised up a new creature leaving your oldself behind Rom. 6, which was done by your faith in the working of God Col. 2:12-13. It also caused God to add you to the church/kingdom Acts 2:47; 1 Cor. 12:13. It was also how your recevie the gift of the Holy Spirit Acts 2:38-39. Finally, it how you are put into Christ Gal. 3:27; Rom. 6:3.

John's baptism did not do any of these things. Even if you make the argument that these things mentioned above happend to those who were baptized by John's baptism after Jesus death, it still would not change the fact that baptism is neccessary for salvation and without you will be lost and will not make it into heaven.

 

[cougan]

So, for those who do not know of God, are they saved? I see no difference between a child who dies and a person who has not been told of God, and therefore does not know what must be done in order to be saved.

Those who do not know God will be lost.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Those who have the ability to understand are the ones without an excuse, but this does not include those who are incapable of knowing or young children because Jesus said:

Matthew 18:3 "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 "Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.

Young children are not born in sin as some teach they are innocent and until they are old enough to be able to be taught the Scriptures and to understand they are lost without Jesus being their Savior. Until that time, they have not reached the age of accountability.

We have O.T. example of this as well because when the children of Israel would not go into the promise land it was only those that were 20 years and older that would not be allowed to enter the promise land Num. 32:11. Hence an example of the age of accountability.

There is difference between those who are capable of knowing and not capable of knowing.

 

[Stinker]

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. ((Acts 2:19)

It is very inersting that the Koine Greek definition of this word converted in Acts 3:19 means: morally reformed (Thayers Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.

The implications of this (according to the doctrine of water salvation) is that all people who are morally reformed to God, will be cast into gehenna fire because they either did not have the opportunity to get water baptized immediately after coming to faith or they waited too long after which to get water baptized.

 

[Svt4Him]

So, for those who do not know of God, are they saved? I see no difference between a child who dies and a person who has not been told of God, and therefore does not know what must be done in order to be saved.

Also, in terms of the accountability thing, that's definitely ridiculous. Please forgive me, but that sounds like the Catholic practice of waiting for a child to grow up in order that he may receive the Sacraments.

And when I said that they help us to accept God, I do not mean accept that He exists. You're right when you say that if we do not accept God (meaning that we have accepted Him as our Creator, our Judge, our Salvation, etc) that we should not receive the Sacraments. But, the same sun that softens butter hardens clay. The Sacraments can help us to bear being in God's presence, or they will harden our hearts. God willing, they will help us to bear His presence when we die. That was the point that I was making- that the Sacraments should help to soften us like butter. And if they are taken in the wrong way,or without preparation, they will harden our hearts towards God.

Those who do not have the law of God will be judges as not hearing. God is a just judge, and He has given many opportunities for people to know him, but for the one person on the island that no one has ever seen, he will be judged based on how much goodness he rejects, not based on his lack of knowledge of Biblical principles.