Does one need to be baptized in order to be saved?

[Doveaman]

Without having to go back in this thread and rehash the water baptisms that Jesus and John the Baptist administered, it is best to consider the command to repent. Those that teach that water baptism is necessary in order for the forgiveness of sins, also teach that one must repent before they are water baptized. This teaching implies that if anyone dies after repenting but before being water baptized, is going to spend eternity in gehenna hell. Repent ye therefore, and be converted (morally reformed- Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon), that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. (Acts 3:19)

What does it take to be "morally reformed"?

Doesn't this take time?

The doctrine of 'water baptism unto the remission of sins' implies that God condemns the converted to eternal hell who die before they get water baptized because they waited too long.

Even though I do not agree with this teaching, I think the command is clear: "Repent and be baptized...for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit". That's the general rule.

Of course there are exceptions to the general rule for those like the thief on the cross, but that does not change the general rule to "Repent and be baptized" for those who can be baptized.

 

[cowboysfan1970]

I have heard some say that being dunked in a tub of water is an absolute must in order to be saved and I think that some denominations require it as a part of their dogma or canon but I haven't found anything in the Bible that comes out and says it's required. I think what God is looking for is have you accepted what Christ did for you in your heart?

 

[sister4mercy]

Being baptized with fire is not about feeling hot under the skin; it’s about the life long process of spiritual purification that Christ takes us all through until we are all transformed into His image and likeness.

Matt 3:11-12:
I baptize you with water unto repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I...He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire (Purification).

Mal 3:2-3:
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire...He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness.

Isa 4:3-4:
Those who are left in Zion, who remain in Jerusalem, will be called holy...The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire.

Being baptized with the spirit of fire is about spiritual purification; it’s not about feeling hot. If you can show me in scripture where a person feels heat when the Holy Spirit came upon them I would be happy to study it.

In the mean time:

Acts 2:38:
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized...for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Repentance and baptism go hand in hand as a sign of repentance, after which one receives the Holy Spirit. That’s the general rule, with a very few exceptions.

Also notice:

Acts 8:15-18:
When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit...Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands.

Another general rule before the Holy Spirit is received; "the laying on of the apostles' hands." For us this would equate to the hands of a church elder.

To conclude:

Matt 3:11:
I baptize you with water unto repentance.

Water baptism is a sign of repentance. How can we say we have repented but then refuse to obey God’s command to be baptized?

If we refuse to obey God’s command to be baptized then we are demonstrating by our actions that we have not repented.

If we have truly repented then we will obey God's command to be baptized.

If you noticed I haven't 'condemned' you or accused you of not having the Holy Spirit. I just have my doubts about your overall argument, which, IMO, has no scriptural basis. It seems to be based on your feelings and emotions and personal opinion.

I would be very happy to study the scriptures you provide as the basis for your argument.

God bless.

Dman.

LOL! Anger as usual. Feeling hot isn't all it's about ..I'm not able to write everything in my life in this thread. Being baptized is something between me and God. I'm not interested in debating. I'm just giving my standpoint. I'm learning alot from the spirit right now and I know that God won't throw me into the lake for not being dunked in water. I have been baptized in the spirit at church anyway after that. I know I've repented. You have no idea what I've been through and I am going through. I'm amazed at modern day pharisees. People are seriously condisending and rude to me. LOL..but then again..Jesus was treated terribly too. I'm persecuted constantly for his sake. NOT by sinners..but by religious people. It's ok if you don't agree with me. Most people don't. However I have a right to state my 'opinion' as you call it. I haven't repented? ....*thinking everything I've been through the past year* wow..that's a pretty wicked and mean statement. Sorry moderators..but that cuts to the bone for sure. I very much love Jesus Christ and my Father in Heaven. One who is greater than me in heaven is a witness of my repentence.

 

[cougan]

I think the story of Naaman the leper in 2 Kings 5 is a picture of baptism.

Naaman had the disease of LEPROSY and wanted to be healed, and he was told that God could heal him, but in order to be healed he had to OBEY God's command to dip himself in WATER seven times (completely). Only after he OBEYED God’s command to dip himself in WATER was he healed.

If Naaman had only BELIEVED that God could heal him but did not OBEY God’s command to dip in WATER he would not have been healed of his disease of LEPROSY.

Our OBEDIENCE to God’s command to be baptized is evidence of our faith, a LIVING FAITH. Only those who have a LIVING FAITH, a FAITH with OBEDIENCE, are healed of the disease of SIN.

Because “Faith without works is dead...a man is justified by works, and not by faith only...so faith without works is dead”...James 2:20-26.

Even so, faith without OBEDIENCE to God's command to be baptized is dead.

But, there is allowance for certain exceptions for those who are unable to, such as the thief on the cross.

Yes, Naaman is a good example of how God demands an obedient faith. God made it clear that the Jordan was the place he had to go and he had to dip 7 times. If he went to any other river or failed to dip 7 times, his leporsey would not have been washed away.

The same is true when it comes to baptism. God's Word teaches that baptism is the place that our sins are washed away and we are put into Christ Rom. 6, Acts 2:38; 22:16. There is nothing magical about the water, but we are simply accepting God's grace by have an obedient faith Col. 2:12-13. If we do not submit ourselves to baptism into Christ for the remission of sins then our sins will remain and we will not be saved.

 

[cougan]

Without having to go back in this thread and rehash the water baptisms that Jesus and John the Baptist administered, it is best to consider the command to repent. Those that teach that water baptism is necessary in order for the forgiveness of sins, also teach that one must repent before they are water baptized. This teaching implies that if anyone dies after repenting but before being water baptized, is going to spend eternity in gehenna hell. Repent ye therefore, and be converted (morally reformed- Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon), that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. (Acts 3:19)

The doctrine of 'water baptism unto the remission of sins' implies that God condemns the converted to eternal hell who die before they get water baptized because they waited too long.

There are many examples in Scripture of those who died or were punished by God becasue they did not obey His law. Why should it surprize you that if someone does not obey the Law of Christ that will be lost?

The Bibles teaches that faith saves, but not faith alone. Based on your argument, we could say that God will condemn those who die before they belive because they waited to long. Why would you accept this statment as true, but not accept when the Bible teaches that we must repent Lk 13:3 or that we must confess Rom. 10:9-10 or that we must be baptized to be saved 1 Pet. 3:21?

Why do you want to exclude these other things that save?

None of these command I have mentioned save you by themselves, because they are to work together, but baptism is the final step in having your sins forgiven and it is when we turn to the Lord.

WHEN DOES ONE TURN TO THE LORD?​

​

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.



Acts 2:38 Acts 3:19

Repent ------------------------ Repent

Be Baptized ----------------- Turn Again

Remission of Sins ----------- Sins Blotted Out
Gift of the Holy Spirit------- Seasons of Refreshing

It easy to see from the verses that turning again, which includes the forgivness of your sins is something happens after repentance that is seperate and apart from it, which is baptism.

 

[cougan]

This is a really good question. Church folk fight tooth and nail about it too. I grew up going to a church of christ half the time and a baptist church the other half. Then I walked away from church totally for a long time. I was taught water baptism was the only way to salvation. Then I asked Jesus into my heart once as a little girl at the baptist church. This thoroughly ticked off my grandmother who went to the church of christ...because they believe salvation only comes from water baptism and not faith alone. Here is my personal testimony.. I walked away from church totally fo

Jesus is the only way to salvation, but baptism is certainly part of our salvation because it is when are sins are forgiven and washed by the blood of Jesus Acts 2:38; 22:16; Rev. 1:5. It is saves us Mk. 16:16; 1 Pet. 3:21. It is the point we are put into Christ Gal. 3:27; Rom 6:3, and it is the point we are added to the kingdom/church of God 1 Cor. 12:13; Acts 2:47; John 3:5. It also the point we die in Christ are raised a new creature in Christ Rom. 6; col 2:12ff.

Where is the Scripture that says we are to ask Jesus in to our heart? Where is the Scripture that say doing so will save us?

r a long time. Then one night alone in my room..I asked Jesus to come back. I repented. Something happened to me at the time I could not understand. I felt the presence of God , his unspeakable love and holiness....and I was burning up. I felt like I was on fire..so much that I looked at my skin..thinking I'd be burned. And I saw everything different. It was like the whole world was new to me. It was so powerful and weird. It changed me completely. I now can speak in tongues. Mind you everyone in my family condemns all practicing of gifts of the spirit..so that's an issue itself. I started reading the gospels more and more. I started thinking about when I was a little girl again..and my dueling grandmothers on faith and baptism. I prayed..and I started searching. John DID baptize with water. And water baptism is a way to be baptized. But ..people need to listen to John a bit closer..He says..He who comes after me..baptizes with fire..and I'm not even fit to walk in his sandles. Jesus came to John and said it is proper to baptize..and john baptized with water. John baptizes with water. Jesus baptizes with fire. According to the word..it doesn't look like either one is wrong. I plan to do the water thing eventually. But..if someone where to walk up to me and say.."You aren't saved yet because you havent been baptized in water." I'd respond like this, " You saying that I am not saved..is you making judgement on me. Our Father in heaven will judge you just the same as you have judged me. " I have many witnesses of my life changing profoundly. My Father in heaven himself is a witness of me being reborn in the spirit. I am a totally new person. I am astonished at how ignorant and condemning people are about all of this. I'm seriously praying that God peels the scales off their eyes so their can see past religion to God himself. Repent and seek the Kingdom of God for yourself..not for a religious man-made establishment...and our Father in Heaven will add all things needed..including in the name of his beloved Son baptizing you. Have faith in the Lord!.. Not traditions. Read the word of God and pray for understanding.

May God bless you!

If you belive in faith only, then why are saying to repent? If we are saved by faith only then we should not have to repent to be saved. Please show me a Scripture that we are saved by faith ALONE? Do not show one that says we are saved by faith because I believe that we are, but we are not saved by faith alone. In fact the only time you will find the term faith only is in:

James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Of course James says we are not saved by faith only.

When John said that Jeus would baptize with fire, he was not talking about something good like you feel you experienced, he is talking about how Jesus will baptize the wicked in hell. So, I hope you did nto experience that kind of fire. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was Jesus did in Acts 2 on the Apostles. The only other record of Holy Spirit baptism was on Cornelius' household, which was done to prove to Peter and Jews with him that the Gentiles were worthy of the Gospel.

 

[cougan]

Being baptized with fire is not about feeling hot under the skin; it’s about the life long process of spiritual purification that Christ takes us all through until we are all transformed into His image and likeness.

Matt 3:11-12:
I baptize you with water unto repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I...He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire (Purification).

Mal 3:2-3:
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire...He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness.

Isa 4:3-4:
Those who are left in Zion, who remain in Jerusalem, will be called holy...The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire.

Being baptized with the spirit of fire is about spiritual purification; it’s not about feeling hot. If you can show me in scripture where a person feels heat when the Holy Spirit came upon them I would be happy to study it.

In the mean time:

Acts 2:38:
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized...for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Repentance and baptism go hand in hand as a sign of repentance, after which one receives the Holy Spirit. That’s the general rule, with a very few exceptions.

Also notice:

Acts 8:15-18:
When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit...Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands.

Another general rule before the Holy Spirit is received; "the laying on of the apostles' hands." For us this would equate to the hands of a church elder.

To conclude:

Matt 3:11:
I baptize you with water unto repentance.

Water baptism is a sign of repentance. How can we say we have repented but then refuse to obey God’s command to be baptized?

If we refuse to obey God’s command to be baptized then we are demonstrating by our actions that we have not repented.

If we have truly repented then we will obey God's command to be baptized.

If you noticed I haven't 'condemned' you or accused you of not having the Holy Spirit. I just have my doubts about your overall argument, which, IMO, has no scriptural basis. It seems to be based on your feelings and emotions and personal opinion.

I would be very happy to study the scriptures you provide as the basis for your argument.

God bless.

Dman.

I have to disagree with you about what baptism of fire is Notice the following excert from Wayne Jackson's article "What is the Baptism of Fire"


But what is the significance of the “fire” in John’s statement? The immediate context would suggest that it is an allusion to the final fate of the wicked. Verse 10 says that “. . . every tree that brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” Then, at the conclusion of verse 12, Jesus continues: “. . . whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.” Why should the “fire” of verse 11 be viewed as something different from that referenced in verses 10 and 12, without some sort of compelling justification?
Of this expression in Matthew 3:11, J.H. Thayer commented, “. . . to overwhelm with fire (those who do not repent), i.e., to subject them to the terrible penalties of hell” (Greek-English Lexicon, Edinburgh: T.&T. Clark, 1958, p. 94).
W.E. Vine noted regarding the “fire” of this passage, “of the fire of Divine judgment upon the rejectors of Christ, Matt. 3:11 (where a distinction is to be made between the baptism of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and the fire of Divine retribution . . .)” (Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Iowa Falls: World, 1991, p. 308).
Arndt & Gingrich speak of the “fire of divine Judgment Mt. 3:11; Lk. 3:16” (Greek-English Lexicon, Chicago: University of Chicago, 1967, p. 737). Finally, as J.W. McGarvey observed, the phrase “baptize you . . . in fire” cannot refer to Pentecost, because there was no “baptism of fire” on that day. Parted “tongues,” which were merely “like as of fire . . . sat upon” each of the apostles. Those brothers were not “overwhelmed with fire” on that occasion (Commentary on Matthew and Mark, De Moines, IA: Eugene Smith, 1875 edition, p. 38).

 

[cougan]

I have heard some say that being dunked in a tub of water is an absolute must in order to be saved and I think that some denominations require it as a part of their dogma or canon but I haven't found anything in the Bible that comes out and says it's required. I think what God is looking for is have you accepted what Christ did for you in your heart?

You do not have to think what God is looking for, you can find in the Scriptures. If you will go back and read my previous posts in this thread you will see where I show exactly what God says we must do to be saved. You say you have not found any Scriputres that say that baptism is neccssary where here is few.

Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us -- baptism

 

[cougan]

LOL! Anger as usual. Feeling hot isn't all it's about ..I'm not able to write everything in my life in this thread. Being baptized is something between me and God. I'm not interested in debating. I'm just giving my standpoint. I'm learning alot from the spirit right now and I know that God won't throw me into the lake for not being dunked in water. I have been baptized in the spirit at church anyway after that. I know I've repented. You have no idea what I've been through and I am going through. I'm amazed at modern day pharisees. People are seriously condisending and rude to me. LOL..but then again..Jesus was treated terribly too. I'm persecuted constantly for his sake. NOT by sinners..but by religious people. It's ok if you don't agree with me. Most people don't. However I have a right to state my 'opinion' as you call it. I haven't repented? ....*thinking everything I've been through the past year* wow..that's a pretty wicked and mean statement. Sorry moderators..but that cuts to the bone for sure. I very much love Jesus Christ and my Father in Heaven. One who is greater than me in heaven is a witness of my repentence.

Nobody in denying you to express your thoughts in here, and I cannot understand what you found offensive about doveman's statements. I am sorry if you have had a bad year or bad life, but that does not change what the Scriptures teach. Based on what I belive the Scriptures teach, I would conclude that whatever you experienced seemed to real to you, and I do not deny that you feel that it is true, but my opinion is that you experience came from your emotions or your own mind. Our opinions differ, but I have no ill-will toward you, based on Doveman worded his response, I can tell he has no ill-will toward you either.

My goal in this thread is only to share with you what I believe the Scriptures teach and all I ask is that you compare what I am saying to the Scriptures because they are our authority and guide. Everything we need to know to be pleasing to God and have Salvation is found in God's Word.

 

[ARBITER01]

It's a foundational topic that many try to twist around.

It's quite simple,..

Act 1:5 for John indeed immersed in water, but you will be immersed in the Holy Spirit not many days hence."

And that is what happened. The Greek is specific on the use of the word "in."

Peter is also very specific about it for all of us,..

Act 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye and be immersed each of thee, upon the name of Jesus Christ, into the forgiveness of thy sins. And you shall receive the gift of The Holy Spirit.

The only thing listed in scripture that cleanses us from our sin is the blood of Jesus, and that is applied by The Holy Spirit upon our spoken confession of faith, and also is why that Greek word "into" is used by Luke.

A few notes here,..

- No one had received The Holy Spirit prior to acts 2, or else Jesus would have never had them wait to be dipped into Him since they would have had Him already within them.

- No disciple ever got water immersed either when The Holy Spirit was finally given by Jesus over in acts 2. If water immersion was of such importance like many claim, then why did none of the disciples ever have it done for salvation in acts 2? Again, it would be counter productive for Jesus to have the disciples wait for The Holy Spirit if they already had Him in them.

- Of a very great importance,... always change the word baptism to immersion, cleansing, or dipping. The Greek word in our bibles has never been translated but simply transliterated. Make the folks that want to use that word change it because then they have to define what immersion actually occurred in the passage(s) that they cite instead of just trying to roll over people wrongly with that false word. That word baptism is used by folks to "imply" the use of water when in fact the passages that use that specific word hardly ever mean water immersion at all, but simply mean Holy Spirit immersion instead. Try it.

 

[cowboysfan1970]

You do not have to think what God is looking for, you can find in the Scriptures. If you will go back and read my previous posts in this thread you will see where I show exactly what God says we must do to be saved. You say you have not found any Scriputres that say that baptism is neccssary where here is few.

Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us -- baptism

What I'm talking about are those that say if somebody isn't submerged in a tank of water then without any question or doubt they aren't saved and under no circumstances will they have any chance of making it into Heaven. There's nothing in the Bible that says it's a requirement in baptism. Anyone who claims that it is are putting words into the Bible that aren't there and making their personal conviction a law that is required for everyone and that's legalism. We are baptized into the Holy Spirit. The thief on the cross that was next to Jesus wasn't put into water but Christ told him that he would be with him in Heaven. When I was a kid I was being pressured to go through the whole immersion in water thing, that I couldn't possibly go to Heaven without going through that, and it scared me so I resisted it. When I was small I nearly drowned once and it put this fear of being in water that was over my head. To this day the thought of that still isn't an easy thing for me. It was when I got older that I realized that nowhere in the Bible did it say that was something I had to go through for baptism. True baptism is the conversion of our hearts and accepting Christ's sacrifice through confessing him with our mouth.

 

[sister4mercy]

I'm glad I told my testimony! LOL! It sure has stirred some people up. I love everyone here no matter what. I know and God knows my heart. I'm glad I have the holy spirit. My goal is that everyone finds the truth. For if your heart is pure..and you truly thirst for righteousness..the Lord will bless you. May the Lord bless and guide all of you. I was reading today and this chapter where Paul speaks ..really jumped out at me.
I Corinthians Chapter 2

1: And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2: For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3: And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6: Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9: But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12: Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15: But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16: For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Much love and peace in the Lord,
sister

 

[Doveaman]

It's a foundational topic that many try to twist around.

It's quite simple,..

And that is what happened. The Greek is specific on the use of the word "in."

Peter is also very specific about it for all of us,..

The only thing listed in scripture that cleanses us from our sin is the blood of Jesus, and that is applied by The Holy Spirit upon our spoken confession of faith, and also is why that Greek word "into" is used by Luke.

1 Cor 1:13-16:

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?

14 I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,

15 so no one can say that you were baptized into my name.

16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.)

Paul is no doubt speaking about water baptism here. And in verses 13 and 15 he speaks of being “baptized into”, showing that water baptism is the means by which we are immerse into Christ through faith.

A few notes here,..

- No one had received The Holy Spirit prior to acts 2, or else Jesus would have never had them wait to be dipped into Him since they would have had Him already within them.

- No disciple ever got water immersed either when The Holy Spirit was finally given by Jesus over in acts 2. If water immersion was of such importance like many claim, then why did none of the disciples ever have it done for salvation in acts 2? Again, it would be counter productive for Jesus to have the disciples wait for The Holy Spirit if they already had Him in them.

Acts 1:4-5:
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

It is very likely the disciples were already baptized with water by John since they also looked forward to the coming of the Messiah who John also preached. There is nothing to suggest otherwise.

- Of a very great importance,... always change the word baptism to immersion, cleansing, or dipping. The Greek word in our bibles has never been translated but simply transliterated. Make the folks that want to use that word change it because then they have to define what immersion actually occurred in the passage(s) that they cite instead of just trying to roll over people wrongly with that false word. That word baptism is used by folks to "imply" the use of water when in fact the passages that use that specific word hardly ever mean water immersion at all, but simply mean Holy Spirit immersion instead. Try it.

Matt 3:13-15:
Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness."

It is clear that this conversation between Christ and John is about water baptism. It is also clear that water baptism is a righteous act that is "proper" for us to "fulfill". To do any less is not only improper but also a failure to "fulfill all righteousness".

 

[Doveaman]

I'm glad I told my testimony! LOL! It sure has stirred some people up. I love everyone here no matter what. I know and God knows my heart. I'm glad I have the holy spirit. My goal is that everyone finds the truth. For if your heart is pure..and you truly thirst for righteousness..the Lord will bless you. May the Lord bless and guide all of you. I was reading today and this chapter where Paul speaks ..really jumped out at me.
I Corinthians Chapter 2

1: And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2: For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3: And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6: Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9: But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12: Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15: But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16: For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Much love and peace in the Lord,
sister

Matt 3:13-16:

Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"

Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.

As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.

We would do well to follow Christ' example, which is the example we also need to set for others follow.

Weather or not you have the Holy Spirit is beside the point. The point is that we need to follow Christ' example.

Christ did not need to be baptized in the same sense that we do, but He did it as an example of righteousness for all of us to fulfill. Weather or not you have the Holy Spirit you would be led by Him to do the same.

 

[ARBITER01]

1 Cor 1:13-16:

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?

14 I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,

15 so no one can say that you were baptized into my name.

16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.)

Paul is no doubt speaking about water baptism here. And in verses 13 and 15 he speaks of being “baptized into”, showing that water baptism is the means by which we are immerse into Christ through faith.
Acts 1:4-5:
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

It is very likely the disciples were already baptized with water by John since they also looked forward to the coming of the Messiah who John also preached. There is nothing to suggest otherwise.
Matt 3:13-15:
Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness."

It is clear that this conversation between Christ and John is about water baptism. It is also clear that water baptism is a righteous act that is "proper" for us to "fulfill". To do any less is not only improper but also a failure to "fulfill all righteousness".

Sorry my friend, it is immersion, and water is never listed as removing our sins, only the blood of Jesus does that,..

Rev 7:14 And I say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The Holy Spirit was not given prior to acts 2, so no, none of the disciples were ever water immersed after The Holy Spirit arrived. So much for the importance of water.

 

[cougan]

What I'm talking about are those that say if somebody isn't submerged in a tank of water then without any question or doubt they aren't saved and under no circumstances will they have any chance of making it into Heaven. There's nothing in the Bible that says it's a requirement in baptism. Anyone who claims that it is are putting words into the Bible that aren't there and making their personal conviction a law that is required for everyone and that's legalism.

I just showed you two verses that says that baptism saves. Mk. 16:16 1 Pet. 3:21. How can you say the Bible does not say it when it does? Do you believe what Jesus and Peter said in these passages? You have no problem believing that faith saves Jn. 3:16, but why can’t you say the same when the Scriptures say that baptism saves? Do you believe that we can be saved while still stained with sin? When does the Bible say that are sins are washed away? Acts 2:38; 22:16. Both these verses teach that it is at the point of baptism. I could continue giving you more and more proof that baptism is necessary to get into heaven, but these verses are enough.

We are baptized into the Holy Spirit. The thief on the cross that was next to Jesus wasn't put into water but Christ told him that he would be with him in Heaven. When I was a kid I was being pressured to go through the whole immersion in water thing, that I couldn't possibly go to Heaven without going through that, and it scared me so I resisted it. When I was small I nearly drowned once and it put this fear of being in water that was over my head. To this day the thought of that still isn't an easy thing for me. It was when I got older that I realized that nowhere in the Bible did it say that was something I had to go through for baptism.

I don’t think you have read any of my past posts, otherwise you would not try to use the thief on the cross as example. The thief does and cannot apply to us. The thief could not baptized with the baptism Jesus commanded because Jesus did not command it until after He was raised from the dead and the thief was long dead.

How can we be baptized into the Holy Spirit? The baptism of the Holy Sprit was a promise made by Jesus to the apostles and He kept His promise on the Day of Pentecost acts 2. The purpose of that promise was to prove that Jesus was sitting at the right hand of the Father. The only other time you read about Holy Spirit baptism is in acts 10 when Cornelius’ household was Holy Spirit baptized. The purpose of this was to show that God had accepted the Gentiles to hear the good news about Jesus. What happened after they were Holy Spirit Baptized? Peter immediately commanded them to be baptized in water. Why? So, they could be saved and have their sins forgiven just like those on the day of Pentecost Acts 2:38.

What baptism did Jesus teach in The Great Commission Mt. 28:19 ff? It wasn’t Holy Spirit baptism because Jesus promised He would do that. Answer: It was water baptism because water baptism is command that we humans can administer, but we cannot baptize anyone with Holy Spirit.

True baptism is the conversion of our hearts and accepting Christ's sacrifice through confessing him with our mouth.

Baptism means to immerse or dip, yet you are giving it a entire new meaning. Confessing Him is something different than baptism. If you are going to make such a statement, you need to back it up with Scripture, but you will not find one that supports this because it doesn’t exist.

 

[cougan]

It's a foundational topic that many try to twist around.

It's quite simple,..

And that is what happened. The Greek is specific on the use of the word "in."

Peter is also very specific about it for all of us,..

The only thing listed in scripture that cleanses us from our sin is the blood of Jesus, and that is applied by The Holy Spirit upon our spoken confession of faith, and also is why that Greek word "into" is used by Luke.

The promise made by the John the Baptist was further made by Jesus to the apostles and that promise of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was done on the Day of Pentecost, but as I pointed out in my previous post, this was not the baptism commanded by Jesus. Acts 2:38 was the baptism commanded by Jesus, which means it was water baptism and it FOR the remission of sins.

A few notes here,..

- No one had received The Holy Spirit prior to acts 2, or else Jesus would have never had them wait to be dipped into Him since they would have had Him already within them.

If you mean that no human received baptism of the Holy Spirit before Acts 2, you are correct, but if you mean that no one had the Holy Spirit before Acts 2 you would be incorrect because John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit Lk. 1:15

- No disciple ever got water immersed either when The Holy Spirit was finally given by Jesus over in acts 2. If water immersion was of such importance like many claim, then why did none of the disciples ever have it done for salvation in acts 2? Again, it would be counter productive for Jesus to have the disciples wait for The Holy Spirit if they already had Him in them.

First, the disciples were baptized with John’s baptism. Second, we are not told everything that happens in Scripture. It is certainly possible that Jesus’ disciples were baptized in the name of Jesus sometime between the time He commanded it and the day of Pentecost. If water baptism wasn’t important, then why did Peter command it in Acts 2 and why were around 3000 souls willing to do it if it wasn’t important? Why was baptism taught and done in just about every conversion in the book of Acts it is not important.


Please see my previous post for the purpose of the Holy Spirit baptism in Acts 2.

- Of a very great importance,... always change the word baptism to immersion, cleansing, or dipping. The Greek word in our bibles has never been translated but simply transliterated. Make the folks that want to use that word change it because then they have to define what immersion actually occurred in the passage(s) that they cite instead of just trying to roll over people wrongly with that false word. That word baptism is used by folks to "imply" the use of water when in fact the passages that use that specific word hardly ever mean water immersion at all, but simply mean Holy Spirit immersion instead. Try it.

Yes, the Greek Word behind baptism means immerse, to dip, to plunge, but you have it wrong. Most of the time the word baptism means water baptism. Think about the definition, immerse, to dip, to plunge. Rom. 6 describes it as burial. What comes to mind when you think of burial? I think of being buried 6 feet under and Paul has in mind being buried in water with Christ. To me it doesn’t makes sense to picture yourself being buried in the Holy Spirit.

You need to produce a Scripture that says that Holy Baptism saves. Good luck on that. Do you think the baptism mentioned in the Great commission is talking about Holy Spirit baptism? If so, how can we as humans follow the command of baptizing people with the Holy Spirit? How can obey something that was a promise made by Jesus that He said He would do?

If Holy Spirit baptism is what saves, why did Philip only baptize the Samaritans in the name of Jesus and leave them in a lost condition Acts 8? Because the text say that the Holy Spirit had not fallen on any of them. In that same chapter, why did Philip baptism the Eunuch in water and then leave without any mentioning of him being baptized in the Holy Spirit? Why did the Eunuch rejoice after only being water baptized if is does save or matter.

After Saul was blinded by Christ, and he fasted and prayed for 3 days and night why did Ananias tell him:

Acts 22:16 'And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

If Holy Spirit baptism washes away yours sins, then why was Saul literally told to get up and go get yourself baptized. If this was talking about Holy Spirit baptism, Saul would not have to arise because the Holy Spirit could be poured out on you even if you were standing on your head.

If Holy Spirit baptism saved, why did Peter command Cornelius household to be water baptized after they had received Holy Spirit baptism Acts 10?

The answer is easy. The one baptism that saves Eph. 4:4-5 is water baptism. No it not the water it self, it is simply the place that God has said that He will save us as wash us with the blood of Jesus and we know that all happens by our faith in the working of God Col. 2:12-13.

 

[ARBITER01]

If you mean that no human received baptism of the Holy Spirit before Acts 2, you are correct, but if you mean that no one had the Holy Spirit before Acts 2 you would be incorrect because John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit Lk. 1:15

John was granted The Holy Spirit from The Father as the last of the OT prophets, but no one was granted The Holy Spirit from Jesus until He was granted it from His Father,..

Act 2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

The church started in acts 2, not before that, and anyone that was ever born again by The Holy Spirit has been granted that from Jesus, but He did not start granting that until He sat at the right of The Father in heaven and was granted to do so by HIM.

As we notice, no one was water immersed in acts 2 when folks were finally filled with The Holy Spirit.

 

[cowboysfan1970]

I just showed you two verses that says that baptism saves. Mk. 16:16 1 Pet. 3:21. How can you say the Bible does not say it when it does?

I never did. Maybe through your slant you read it that way.

I don’t think you have read any of my past posts, otherwise you would not try to use the thief on the cross as example. The thief does and cannot apply to us. The thief could not baptized with the baptism Jesus commanded because Jesus did not command it until after He was raised from the dead and the thief was long dead.

I don't really have to read all of your posts. More often than not when a person is very strident or convicted about something they will recycle the same points or arguement over and over again. If you've read one of their posts you've more or less read them all.

OK, let me see if I understand this because I either have a very poor understanding of the Bible or I'm just so simple that I can't understand what the Bible says, but does a person need to be submerged in water if they are to be saved and anyone that isn't is without any question or doubt not saved and therefore going to hell? Is that true or not?

 

[Doveaman]

Sorry my friend, it is immersion, and water is never listed as removing our sins, only the blood of Jesus does that,..

Nor did I ever claim water removed sin.

Sin is not removed by simple "confession" either. Sin is removed by the blood of Christ through faith, a living faith , a faith with obedience, including obedience to God's command to be baptized.

Water baptism is a clear command form God, so failure to obey this command is lack of faith; it's a dead faith, a faith that cannot save.

How can you claim to have faith but then refuse to obey God's command to be baptized?

Show me your faith without deeds...You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did...so faith without deeds is dead...James 2:18-26.

Faith without obedience to God's command to be baptized is dead. God is not about lip service; He is about action.

Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead...James 2:15-17.

The Holy Spirit was not given prior to acts 2, so no, none of the disciples were ever water immersed after The Holy Spirit arrived. So much for the importance of water.

They were likely immersed in water before it was given, possibly by John the baptist as Christ Himself was as an example for us.