Does one need to be baptized in order to be saved?

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stelow

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If one is saved before baptism, then one is saved before his/her sins are forgiven (note Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

If water baptism was how are sins are forgiven then Jesus would not have had to die.

Spiritual baptism takes place not in water but in the spirit, so water baptism is an outward action based on an inward reality.

Notice the following scriptures the Holy Spirit has already been given to the Gentiles before they're baptized in water.

Acts 10:43-47
43Every one of the prophets has said that all who have faith in Jesus will have their sins forgiven in his name.
44While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit took control of everyone who was listening.
45Some Jewish followers of the Lord had come with Peter, and they were surprised that the Holy Spirit had been given to Gentiles.
46Now they were hearing Gentiles speaking unknown languages and praising God. Peter said,
47"These Gentiles have been given the Holy Spirit, just as we have! I am certain that no one would dare stop us from baptizing them."
 
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- DRA -

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Jesus never promoted immersing in water before He rose, He promoted immersing in The Holy Spirit,..

So. It definitely was a part of the Great Commission as He sent forth His apostles to take the gospel to the world in Mark 16:15-16 and Matthew 28:19-20.

Spiritual immersion/baptism has the emphasis placed on it by Jesus, not water anymore. Water immersion died out with John the baptist and the OT, and it was only symbolic of what we were to eventually receive from Jesus when He was seated at the right hand of The Father.

Water regeneration is a fallacy.

Sorry, disagree. Baptism in water was commanded by the authority of the Lord in Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:47-48. And, it is evident that the eunuch desired to be baptized in water after hearing Jesus preached in Acts 8:35-39.

Baptism is detailed in Romans 6:3-11. Concisely stated, it is God's way for us to be united with His Son's death, burial, and resurrection and where we die to sins, are freed from them, and become alive to God. Paul obeyed when he was commanded to do so in Acts 22:16 & 9:18.

John's baptism was a baptism of repentance to prepare the Jewish people to receive the Messiah (Matthew 3:11), and served its purpose and ended (see Acts 18:24 through 19:5). However, in that text, we see the baptism in the name of the Lord was very much in effect. Note how that baptism is described in Acts 10:47-48. Does it refer to "spiritual immersion/baptism," or to immersion/baptism in water?

I do not believe in "water regeneration." However, I do have faith in the working of God per Colossians 2:12. I suspect that without faith all one sees in baptism is just the water - nothing more!
 
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ARBITER01

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Sorry, disagree. Baptism in water was commanded by the authority of the Lord in Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:47-48.

No it wasn't. You're merely assuming.

If water was so important, why were none of the disciples water immersed after acts 2?

Additionally, Peter never makes the case for water in any point where he preaches salvation,..

Act 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye and be immersed, each of thee on the name of Jesus Christ, into remission of thy sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 3:18 But the things which God foreshewed by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer, he thus fulfilled.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord;

Act 3:20 and that he may send the Christ who hath been appointed for you, even Jesus:
Act 10:42 And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he which is ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

Act 10:43 To him bear all the prophets witness, that through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
As we see, Peter never mentions water.

If anything, water would be only a follow-thru for the salvation a person already received since Jesus was water immersed, that would be all. A mere act of obedience to the guidance of The Holy Spirit within them already that they received from Jesus.
 
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- DRA -

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Originally Posted by - DRA -

Sorry, disagree. Baptism in water was commanded by the authority of the Lord in Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:47-48.


No it wasn't. You're merely assuming.

Well, let's consider the passages. Here they are from the NKJV ...
Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.​
The passage is a direct statement or command. Two things are commanded to receive the blessings promised: repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ (which is synonymous with the baptism in the name of the Lord in Acts 10:47-48). Let's see how the Jews understood this statement. Three thousand obeyed what they were told in verse 41 and received the blessings promised. Let's be fair with the text. Do you think they were making assumptions, or were they simply obeying what they were told to do to have their sins remitted (i.e., taken away)?
Acts 10:47-48 - "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.​
"He [Peter] commanded them to be baptized" isn't an assumption. It's specifically stated that baptism was commanded. And, in the context, it's crystal clear that baptism in water is under consideration.

If water was so important, why were none of the disciples water immersed after acts 2?

Acts 8 comes after Acts 2, right? Sure it does. So, let's see what we find in that chapter ...
Acts 8:35-39
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him.
36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"
37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.​

Plus, there's Acts 10:47-48. It's posted above. And, it came after Acts 2, also. So, obviously your point needs some more study/diligence (2 Timothy 2:15).

Additionally, Peter never makes the case for water in any point where he preaches salvation,..

Act 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye and be immersed, each of thee on the name of Jesus Christ, into remission of thy sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 3:18 But the things which God foreshewed by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer, he thus fulfilled.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord;

Act 3:20 and that he may send the Christ who hath been appointed for you, even Jesus:
Act 10:42 And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he which is ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

Act 10:43 To him bear all the prophets witness, that through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

As we see, Peter never mentions water.

First, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is synonymous with baptism in the name of the Lord. And, the baptism in the name of the Lord is clearly identified as being in water in Acts 10:47-48. Perhaps if you had not stopped with Acts 10:46 you might have noticed what the next two verses say (once again, they are posted above). So, although water isn't specifically stated in Acts 2:38, there is indeed a scriptural basis for understanding that baptism in water was being commanded. Obviously, it was something the Jews could obey, because 3,000 did.

Second, you might also want to consider 1 Peter 3:20-21 (which Peter wrote) ...
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,​
I'll let you study on this type/antitype relationship between how the waters of the ark saving Noah's family are comparable to how baptism (in water according to the analogy) saves us today under the gospel of Christ. See that part about baptism being the answer of a good conscience? That means a person's conscience was bad/guilty before baptism. Why? Because they hadn't received the remission of sins yet according to Acts 2:38, or didn't have their sins washed away per Acts 22:16. Give it some thought. The truth harmonizes between Scripture if you let it. Let it. It's the right thing to do.

If anything, water would be only a follow-thru for the salvation a person already received since Jesus was water immersed, that would be all. A mere act of obedience to the guidance of The Holy Spirit within them already that they received from Jesus.

Let's think back to Acts 2. Peter, under direct guidance of the Holy Spirit, used Psalm 16, 2 Samuel 7 & Psalm 132, and Psalm 110 as the basis for declaring Jesus to both Lord and Christ in verse 36. In response (verse 37), some of the Jews were convicted of their sins - specifically of having their Messiah/Christ killed. They asked what they should do. That is evidence they now believed in Jesus. Therefore, Peter, still under the direct guidance of the Spirit, told them they were already saved in verse 38, right? Wrong! Rather, he told them what to do to have their sins taken away. That's means they weren't saved at that point. However, once they obeyed what they were told to do in verse 41 (i.e., repent and be baptized), they were saved and added to the Lord's church (His called out people) in verse 47. That's how the inspired story goes. Give it some thought.

As for Jesus, He was baptized with John's baptism, which according to Matthew 3, was a baptism of repentance preached to the Jews for them to prepare for the coming Messiah/Christ. Jesus was baptized to "fulfill all righteousness." He had no sins to repent of. And, He was the coming Messiah/Christ, so there was no need for Him to prepare for His coming. On the other hand, folks today have a real need to be united with the Lord's death, burial, and resurrection to die to sins, be freed from them, and become alive to God. I encourage you to read Romans 6 and consider the blessings that occur during baptism. Make no assumptions. Just read the inspired word and see what it tells you.

:idea:
 
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ARBITER01

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Originally Posted by - DRA -

Sorry, disagree. Baptism in water was commanded by the authority of the Lord in Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:47-48.




Well, let's consider the passages. Here they are from the NKJV ...
Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.​
The passage is a direct statement or command. Two things are commanded to receive the blessings promised: repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ (which is synonymous with the baptism in the name of the Lord in Acts 10:47-48). Let's see how the Jews understood this statement. Three thousand obeyed what they were told in verse 41 and received the blessings promised. Let's be fair with the text. Do you think they were making assumptions, or were they simply obeying what they were told to do to have their sins remitted (i.e., taken away)?
Acts 10:47-48 - "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.​
"He [Peter] commanded them to be baptized" isn't an assumption. It's specifically stated that baptism was commanded. And, in the context, it's crystal clear that baptism in water is under consideration.



Acts 8 comes after Acts 2, right? Sure it does. So, let's see what we find in that chapter ...
Acts 8:35-39
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him.
36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"
37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.​
Plus, there's Acts 10:47-48. It's posted above. And, it came after Acts 2, also. So, obviously your point needs some more study/diligence (2 Timothy 2:15).



First, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is synonymous with baptism in the name of the Lord. And, the baptism in the name of the Lord is clearly identified as being in water in Acts 10:47-48. Perhaps if you had not stopped with Acts 10:46 you might have noticed what the next two verses say (once again, they are posted above). So, although water isn't specifically stated in Acts 2:38, there is indeed a scriptural basis for understanding that baptism in water was being commanded. Obviously, it was something the Jews could obey, because 3,000 did.

Second, you might also want to consider 1 Peter 3:20-21 (which Peter wrote) ...
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,​
I'll let you study on this type/antitype relationship between how the waters of the ark saving Noah's family are comparable to how baptism (in water according to the analogy) saves us today under the gospel of Christ. See that part about baptism being the answer of a good conscience? That means a person's conscience was bad/guilty before baptism. Why? Because they hadn't received the remission of sins yet according to Acts 2:38, or didn't have their sins washed away per Acts 22:16. Give it some thought. The truth harmonizes between Scripture if you let it. Let it. It's the right thing to do.



Let's think back to Acts 2. Peter, under direct guidance of the Holy Spirit, used Psalm 16, 2 Samuel 7 & Psalm 132, and Psalm 110 as the basis for declaring Jesus to both Lord and Christ in verse 36. In response (verse 37), some of the Jews were convicted of their sins - specifically of having their Messiah/Christ killed. They asked what they should do. That is evidence they now believed in Jesus. Therefore, Peter, still under the direct guidance of the Spirit, told them they were already saved in verse 38, right? Wrong! Rather, he told them what to do to have their sins taken away. That's means they weren't saved at that point. However, once they obeyed what they were told to do in verse 41 (i.e., repent and be baptized), they were saved and added to the Lord's church (His called out people) in verse 47. That's how the inspired story goes. Give it some thought.

As for Jesus, He was baptized with John's baptism, which according to Matthew 3, was a baptism of repentance preached to the Jews for them to prepare for the coming Messiah/Christ. Jesus was baptized to "fulfill all righteousness." He had no sins to repent of. And, He was the coming Messiah/Christ, so there was no need for Him to prepare for His coming. On the other hand, folks today have a real need to be united with the Lord's death, burial, and resurrection to die to sins, be freed from them, and become alive to God. I encourage you to read Romans 6 and consider the blessings that occur during baptism. Make no assumptions. Just read the inspired word and see what it tells you.

:idea:


Sorry my friend, mere water will not wash away and cleanse a persons spirit, only GOD can do that by HIS Holy Spirit, hence why Jesus placed the emphasis on that event to come before He arose.

Jesus requires that we be born again to receive His kingdom inside of us, and that requires faith to please GOD.

What you are doing is typical for most church of Christ folks, they try to add water with the blood by pitting scripture against scripture, but it is very specific in the end,..

Rev 7:14 And I say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Notice that it is "IN" the blood of the lamb. That statement doesn't add water into the formula, hence all your suppositions here are false teachings.

On a personal note, I completely received my Damascus road experience with The Lord when I simple looked up one night and asked forgiveness from Him. That tangibly felt experience did not require any water to receive just like it didn't require Paul any water to come face to face with The Lord. In fact, it was roughly 6 months after that event before I was directed by The Lord to go through water immersion, so your ideas about what scripture is saying are completely false to me.

A person with an experience is not at the mercy of a person with their opinions, and that is all you here have my friend, simple opinions, and they do not agree with scripture.
 
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NatalieJan777

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On a personal note, I completely received my Damascus road experience with The Lord when I simple looked up one night and asked forgiveness from Him. That tangibly felt experience did not require any water to receive just like it didn't require Paul any water to come face to face with The Lord.

I personally have to agree with this one, based soley on personal experience. I accepted Christ at a rather early age and was taught via the Holy Spirit about many things. I wasn't emersed until about 23 years later when I also recieved furtherance of the Holy Spirit.

It is qouted as Jesus saying that all that is required to recieve the Holy Spirit is to ask the Father. Luke 11:13

However, I also believe that if you love Christ Jesus, you would be willing to be emersed on a daily basis if HE required you to.

Jesus also is qouted as stating in John 14:15-17 that in order to recieve the Holy Spirit that you must love HIM and obey all HIS commands.

Thus I must pose the question. Is it possible to Obey all that Christ Jesus Commands and yet not be emersed in water baptism? Personally I have to say yes.
 
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Kutte

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DRA wrote:

Baptism is God's way for us to be united with His Son's death, burial, and resurrection and where we die to sins, are freed from them, and become alive to God (Romans 6:3-11). Baptism is based on faith in the working of God per Colossians 2:12. And, faith is an absolute necessity to please God (Hebrews 11:6). Therefore, the real problem is the lack of faith in believing God's plan for redeeming man through His Son.

Response:

Then, according to your views, billions of people lacking any faith in Paul's teachings and baptism would not be able to be united with God? This looks to me as some sort of selfcentered Christian righteousness.

Kutte
 
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stelow

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Then, according to your views, billions of people lacking any faith in Paul's teachings and baptism would not be able to be united with God?
Kutte

Kutte, I don't understand what you are saying about lacking faith in Paul's teachings; could you help me gain some clarity?:cool:
 
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stelow

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I don't know how this could be any clearer, these Gentiles who heard the Word of God received the Holy Spirit through their faith in Christ Jesus then began speaking in unknown languages and praising God.

Acts 10:43-47
43Every one of the prophets has said that all who have faith in Jesus will have their sins forgiven in his name.
44While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit took control of everyone who was listening.
45Some Jewish followers of the Lord had come with Peter, and they were surprised that the Holy Spirit had been given to Gentiles.
46Now they were hearing Gentiles speaking unknown languages and praising God. Peter said,
47"These Gentiles have been given the Holy Spirit, just as we have! I am certain that no one would dare stop us from baptizing them."
 
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Kutte

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stelow,

Having faith in Paul and having faith in Jesus Christ are two different things. Since Christian churches base their beliefs mostly on what Paul is saying, they should call themselves "Pauline Church".
However, we are getting off the subject and I will leave at that.

Kutte
 
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stelow

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stelow,

Having faith in Paul and having faith in Jesus Christ are two different things. Since Christian churches base their beliefs mostly on what Paul is saying, they should call themselves "Pauline Church".
However, we are getting off the subject and I will leave at that.

Kutte

Of course our faith should be in Christ Jesus but I would only say that Jesus and Paul expressed the same spiritual standards. The problem lies in who interpets what was expressed, because the natural man(flesh) can't really understand what the Spirit is saying.

John 6:63
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 
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stelow

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Jesus Christ gave us the gift of salvation, and we need to accept it with faith. None of our "works" lead to salvation. Baptism is an act of obedience and a sign of one's dedication, but it doesn't earn our salvation.

:clap:
 
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