Does morality exist without God?

[Cuddles333]

I do not think we can do away with the concept that (not just ourselves) everyone everywhere should do something, or, shouldn't do something, when it comes to morality. But for us to put this forth, we would have to go to the ultimate source for it. This would involve the metaphysical realm...the supernatural. Since this is the only option for absolute morality. For one to maintain universal morality they need not appeal to the supernatural.

 

[Skavau]

OK, you don't believe in God. So whats the point here? Discussion is irrelevant. If you don't believe in God then there is nothing to scrutinise or question is there?

I can scrutinise how people who do believe in God view morality.

You have not concept of who God is so therefore why even discuss it

I may have no concept of God (I'm an atheist) but others do and I can scrutinise that.

Do you really care what holy means?

I'm curious to see a meaningful objective definition of holy that makes it a worthy descriptor. Still yet to see one.

God's law can change? Being an atheist you sure assert that you know a lot about this God that you don't believe exists.

I'm saying something very simple. If God exists and if God is autonomous then God could if he wanted change his law at will.

How is that claiming to know a lot about God? It is simply following from the Christian conception of God.

Its hard for me to truly understand that there are people living in this world that don't believe in God. It is nonsensical of me. You are right. But then, like in the proceeding you claim to know so much about him. Thats nonsensical also.

This seems to be the essence of your problems in interacting with atheists. You cannot imagine their conviction to be truthful or without agenda.

 

[Gadarene]

God's law can change? Being an atheist you sure assert that you know a lot about this God that you don't believe exists.

Being an apparent adult you sure don't seem to know what the word 'change' means, as god's laws have indeed changed.

Some OT laws are now no longer in effect. I.e a change.

 

[Eudaimonist]

OK, whats your point?

I'm objecting to your choice of terms. If you had called a dog a "doorknob", I would also have objected.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

Who gave me the authority? Perfect example of post modernism where there is no such thing as right and wrong, good and evil. It all boils down to individual preference.

Why do you keep going on about postmodernism? So far, it seems that most (all?) of the atheists posting in this thread so far believe in a right and wrong that is not merely a matter of individual preference.

So you believe you have objective morality?

Yes.

Your source?

My source? I'm not sure what you are asking for. I'm influenced by Aristotle and various neo-Aristotelian philosophers.

Or do you mean "what is the source of objective morality"? To make a long story short: the objective requirements of human well-being. This is something that exists very well without any God (or gods) existing.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

I do not think we can do away with the concept that (not just ourselves) everyone everywhere should do something, or, shouldn't do something, when it comes to morality. But for us to put this forth, we would have to go to the ultimate source for it.

Yes, our nature as living, rational beings.

Since this is the only option for absolute morality. For one to maintain universal morality they need not appeal to the supernatural.

What is the distinction that you are drawing between "absolute" morality and "universal" morality? And doesn't a "universal" morality include shoulds and shoudn'ts?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Exactly, absolutes in YOUR mind not from the mind of God. You have absolutes in your mind, your neighbor has different absolutes and so on. When you believe in one supreme being where he is author of absolute morality and judgement then all who believe in him have the same moral teachings and laws.

All people who believe in God have the same moral teachings and laws? There are no moral disagreements among the religious?

 

[trientje]

Being an apparent adult you sure don't seem to know what the word 'change' means, as god's laws have indeed changed.

Some OT laws are now no longer in effect. I.e a change.

O t laws that people made, that is true. But God's laws of the old testament? Remember Jesus did not come to abolish his laws he came to fulfill them.

 

[trientje]

All people who believe in God have the same moral teachings and laws? There are no moral disagreements among the religious?

Whenever you say there are no moral disagreements you are presenting a false statement. Of course there are moral disagreements among the religious. God didn't want it to be that way but thats the way it is.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Whenever you say there are no moral disagreements you are presenting a false statement. Of course there are moral disagreements among the religious. God didn't want it to be that way but thats the way it is.

If you're in a discussion with another Christian who takes a contrary position from your own regarding a moral issue, and that person can show you scripture that supports their view, do you change your mind? What if you can also find scripture that supports your view?

 

[trientje]

Why do you keep going on about postmodernism? So far, it seems that most (all?) of the atheists posting in this thread so far believe in a right and wrong that is not merely a matter of individual preference.



Yes.






eudaimonia,

Mark

Can you prove that whatever morals and values as to right and wrong didn't come from God? How about Aristotle? Where did his moral values come from? Can you prove that the law isn't written on every man's heart and the source is God?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Can you prove that whatever morals and values as to right and wrong didn't come from God? How about Aristotle? Where did his moral values come from? Can you prove that the law isn't written on every man's heart and the source is God?

No. Can you prove your god is the source of morals?

 

[trientje]

No. Can you prove your god is the source of morals?

No, at least no proof that would satisfy an atheist. So why can't we just agree to disagree? I believe in God, you don't.

 

[Tinker Grey]

No, at least no proof that would satisfy an atheist.

I.e., no proof that would satisfy anyone who hasn't already accepted your position.

So why can't we just agree to disagree? I believe in God, you don't.

Because agreeing to disagree isn't the subject of this thread. If you want to agree to disagree, don't post.

 

[trientje]

definition of holy:

I found this post. This guy is partly right when he said it is a superior force whish is not understandable by human minds. For we can not totally understand God for who he is cause we can not understand his "holiness". We know that it means to be set apart. That God is sinless, and has perfect righteousness. But at the same time he is merciful, and forgiving. He can change his mind through a man's pleading and prayers and there are stories in the bible to back that up. That is called the mercy of God. But he will never change in terms of his character and holiness. And that is what the bible is talking about when it says God does not change.


I don't believe in God, but in my opinion, holy would be the fact that it is a superior force, which is not understandable by human minds... but for me, that is just all made up. It all depends on a person's way to think.

 

[Cuddles333]

I think this subject gets more clear when we take the subject 'morality' and back track all the way back to the beginning of human history. It will have to be proved that absolute morality originated from Evolution or came to us supernaturally. Universal morality is no more than a set of rules for a society to function more smoothly...like a football game. Those who have the means...get away without having to play by these rules.

Absolute morality goes way beyond human rules. It penetrates to the soul of the person. So much so that the person knows very well some things are greater than just breaking the 'game rule' .

 

[Gadarene]

O t laws that people made, that is true. But God's laws of the old testament? Remember Jesus did not come to abolish his laws he came to fulfill them.

And in doing so changed them.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Whenever you say there are no moral disagreements you are presenting a false statement. Of course there are moral disagreements among the religious. God didn't want it to be that way but thats the way it is.

That means your statement "When you believe in one supreme being where he is author of absolute morality and judgement then all who believe in him have the same moral teachings and laws" is false. And it is obviously false. There are countless religious moralities, each purporting to represent the one true Moral Law of the one true God.

 

[trientje]

And in doing so changed them.

No, he fulfilled them. Matthew 5:17

• "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
• For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfill

Christians are now under the grace of Jesus. We are covered by the blood of his sacrifice. Jesus expounded on the law, he didn't abolish the law

http://www.biblepath.com/beatitudes.html- You can read the whole thing here.



"You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' 22But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, "Raca!' shall be in danger of the council.


You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not commit adultery.'
28But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


"Furthermore it has been said, "Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adulter

 

[Eudaimonist]

Can you prove that whatever morals and values as to right and wrong didn't come from God?

No more than you can prove that Christian morals don't actually come from Darth Vader.

What I can tell you is that my morals and values are naturalistic, and don't make any appeal to a God for their validity.


eudaimonia,

Mark