Does morality exist without God?

[trientje]

aeopteryx;62652904]Moral claims become reduced to religious claims; to assertions of "God commands it; therefore it is right." Whose God commands what seems to depend on the individual believer and his religion.[/quote]

"God commands it; therefore it is right."

Yep, God is always right. In My case it is the Christian God that commands it. I know you believe that every individual determines what is right and wrong. But this Christian only looks to The God of the bible. You have to understand religion and the God of the bible are not synonymous. Religion is man made. Now some will say, well the bible was written by men. True, but I believe that those men were inspired by the Holy Spirit. There has to be some truth to whats in that book, or something that people learn and identify with cause its been around a long time and still the most read book around.

 

[ebia]

Moral claims become reduced to religious claims; to assertions of "God commands it; therefore it is right." Whose God commands what seems to depend on the individual believer and his religion.

As opposed to what?

Your argument looks suspiciously like its equating religious morality with a deontologcal ethic, non-religous morality with an unspecified other, and assumes the latter is better because deontologists don't agree on what the rules are.

 

[Skavau]

As opposed to what?

Your argument looks suspiciously like its equating religious morality with a deontologcal ethic, non-religous morality with an unspecified other, and assumes the latter is better because deontologists don't agree on what the rules are.

No, he's pointing out what both you and trientje (on several occasions) have missed. That a theistic morality, a morality from God means that moral claims are reduced to following commands. It negates all reasoning behind any and all moral claims. It means quite literally that the only reason you would find anything wrong is because God says so.

Murder is only wrong because God says so.
Theft is only wrong because God says so.

This is not morality, this is following orders. Per theistic morality if God were to suddenly order murder, order rape you would have no grounds whatsoever to dissent. You would have to think that murder is right.

That is what is problematic. That is what is frightening. That theistic morality is seen as a virtue in our culture shows just how numb and unaware we are to what that really means.

 

[ebia]

No, he's pointing out what both you and trientje (on several occasions) have missed. That a theistic morality, a morality from God means that moral claims are reduced to following commands.

1. That is basically deontology.
2. While many (most?) christians don't think beyond that, many theological ethicists have a virtue, not a deontological, approach.

 

[trientje]

No, he's pointing out what both you and trientje (on several occasions) have missed. That a theistic morality, a morality from God means that moral claims are reduced to following commands. It negates all reasoning behind any and all moral claims. It means quite literally that the only reason you would find anything wrong is because God says so.

Murder is only wrong because God says so.
Theft is only wrong because God says so.

This is not morality, this is following orders. Per theistic morality if God were to suddenly order murder, order rape you would have no grounds whatsoever to dissent. You would have to think that murder is right.


That is what is problematic. That is what is frightening. That theistic morality is seen as a virtue in our culture shows just how numb and unaware we are to what that really means.

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”


Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love
You left the above command out.

You left out the above verses. Christians follow God's laws and commands because we love him. God has a love for us that is beyond comprehension. Thank God for that cause you and I would have gotten our just desert by now.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Does morality exist without God?

Yes, obviously.

 

[trientje]

Yes, obviously.

The Christian belief isMorality is from God.The Bible also says that God wrote His law on our hearts (Romans 2:15). This is conscience. In other words, even without God’s revelation in the commandments, we intuitively know God’s law based on the fact that we were created in His image.Do you believe you have a Conscience? And if you do where do you believe that conscience came from?

​

 

[Archaeopteryx]

aeopteryx;62652904]Moral claims become reduced to religious claims; to assertions of "God commands it; therefore it is right." Whose God commands what seems to depend on the individual believer and his religion.



Yep, God is always right. In My case it is the Christian God that commands it. I know you believe that every individual determines what is right and wrong. But this Christian only looks to The God of the bible. You have to understand religion and the God of the bible are not synonymous. Religion is man made. Now some will say, well the bible was written by men. True, but I believe that those men were inspired by the Holy Spirit. There has to be some truth to whats in that book, or something that people learn and identify with cause its been around a long time and still the most read book around.

Imagine that you are morally opposed to a particular action. You insist that God prohibits this action, therefore it is morally wrong. You are confident that you are right in making that assertion. Now imagine that another individual, also a Christian, disagrees with you. He asserts that the action in question is morally right, that Scripture agrees with him, and that God wills it. He is just as confident in his faith as you are. Neither of you will convince the other.

 

[trientje]

http://web.mail.comcast.net/zimbra/mail?app=mail#8

Why are Christians letting atheists and government take God out of our schools, and give us a hard time????? This map tells me there are a lot of Christians in this country and it looks like we aren't going to go away.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

http://web.mail.comcast.net/zimbra/mail?app=mail#8

Why are Christians letting atheists and government take God out of our schools, and give us a hard time????? This map tells me there are a lot of Christians in this country and it looks like we aren't going to go away.

If God is omnipresent it is impossible for atheists to take him out of schools.

 

[Belk]

http://web.mail.comcast.net/zimbra/mail?app=mail#8

Why are Christians letting atheists and government take God out of our schools, and give us a hard time????? This map tells me there are a lot of Christians in this country and it looks like we aren't going to go away.

Simple answer is they are not. The only thing that happened that I am aware of is Christians have stopped other Christians from having their kids taught things they did not agree with.

BTW we can not see into your personal email in the web link.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

The Christian belief isMorality is from God.The Bible also says that God wrote His law on our hearts (Romans 2:15). This is conscience. In other words, even without God’s revelation in the commandments, we intuitively know God’s law based on the fact that we were created in His image.Do you believe you have a Conscience? And if you do where do you believe that conscience came from?

​

Yes, I believe I have a conscience. I believe H. sapiens evolved a conscience and the innate sense of right, wrong and injustice. Just watch a child react when another takes his toy.

 

[Skavau]

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”


Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love
You left the above command out.

Irrelevant.

The only reason love is cherished as a virtue is because God says so. If God said otherwise love could be just as easily as vice for you. It is as if you are functionally incapable of noting my points. Keep trying.

You left out the above verses. Christians follow God's laws and commands because we love him. God has a love for us that is beyond comprehension. Thank God for that cause you and I would have gotten our just desert by now.

So?

That you obey him because of love does not devalue my point. The only reason you (per theistic morality) think anything is right and anything is wrong is because God says so. That your motive for following him at all is because you love him does not change that.

 

[Skavau]

1. That is basically deontology.
2. While many (most?) christians don't think beyond that, many theological ethicists have a virtue, not a deontological, approach.

1. No, not really. 'Theistic morality' isn't even morality. It is just following orders.

2. Then they aren't really theistic morality proponents.

 

[ebia]

1. No, not really. 'Theistic morality' isn't even morality. It is just following orders.

2. Then they aren't really theistic morality proponents.

Have you studied ethics at all?

 

[Skavau]

Have you studied ethics at all?

Go on. Tell me how my assessment of theistic morality is wrong.

 

[ebia]

Go on. Tell me how my assessment of theistic morality is wrong.

I was hoping you would answer the question, because you don't seem to have the background understanding of the various main approaches to ethics.

There are three main approaches to ethics:
Deontological - morality is defined by rules
Virtue - morality is whatever a truly virtuous person would do
Consequential or utilitarian. - whatever does the greatest good is the moral action

While many theists are deontological, most ethical theologians are not and haven't been for a long time - eg Thomas Aquinas is firmly virtue orientated.
Conversely many secular ethicists have been deontologisist.

While I'm firmly in the virtue camp myself, it's not self-evident by a long chalk which is the better mode of thinking.

 

[Skavau]

I was hoping you would answer the question, because you don't seem to have the background understanding of the various main approaches to ethics.

I do.

Now tell me how theistic morality is different than how I am describing it.

 

[ebia]

I do.

Now tell me how theistic morality is different than how I am describing it.

I have. Not all deontologists are theists and not all theists are deontologists. And your argument is essentially no more than "deontology is wrong because its just following orders"

 

[Skavau]

I have. Not all deontologists are theists and not all theists are deontologists. And your argument is essentially no more than "deontology is wrong because its just following orders"

Theists =/= Theistic Morality

As for Deontology, not quite. I am referring to why one might see something as wrong.

E.g:

A General Deontologist might say that lying is always wrong because the act is inherently dishonest.

A Theistic Morality Deontologist would say that lying is always wrong 'cos God says so.

Whilst both say that lying is always wrong, the reasons are different and these reasons matter.