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Does morality exist without God?

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Mr. Pedantic

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Wait.... so going back... there are atheists who believe in free will? Is there some perception that there is some sort of limited feedback loop involving holes in the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics and the firing of neurons in our brains?? If so, how would that loop be initiated except through random chance, encounters with external stimuli that could not be controlled(i.e. not "free"), or other deterministic factors on their own terms?

I do see this as important, because I can't see the justification for "morality" in terms of judgment (i.e. you did something wrong, implying freedom of will) or any other level besides a utilitarian harm principle that is nonetheless aware that those who commit grievous violations of that principle are not actually responsible for their actions (and in fact, the entire concept of "self/they/etc..." falls apart into the gigantic web of physical interactions throughout the universe(s)). And even that harm principle would be pursued with the knowledge that active free will (in the immediate sense) is based solely on perception and the impossibility of a LaPlace's Daemon invading that perception!

IMHO.
I used to think this too. But as far as I understand quantum mechanics, the limits on measurement placed on the universe by the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principles means that we will never be able to know the exact conditions of any state of the universe, which means that we will never be able to predict with any accuracy the exact state of the universe at any other time or space, which means that uncertainty (and therefore chance) is an inherent property of the universe.

Anyone who believes Jesus died for there sins goes to heaven.
Great. So if I accept Jesus as my savior and when I die I go to Heaven, I get to hang out with people like this...but Christian as well.

Maybe I'll give it a pass this time round.
 
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TomZzyzx

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Mr. Pedantic said:
I used to think this too. But as far as I understand quantum mechanics, the limits on measurement placed on the universe by the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principles means that we will never be able to know the exact conditions of any state of the universe, which means that we will never be able to predict with any accuracy the exact state of the universe at any other time or space, which means that uncertainty (and therefore chance) is an inherent property of the universe.

Great. So if I accept Jesus as my savior and when I die I go to Heaven, I get to hang out with people like this...but Christian as well.

Maybe I'll give it a pass this time round.

Sorry, you only get one life to accept Jesus then eternity.
 
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ForaOne

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You have this completely wrong. The only kind of morality you get without a moral law giver is a subjective, relativist morality. Two separate groups of people might have a different morality. One group might say that rape and murder is ok. We all need a moral law giver to tell us what is right and what is wrong.


And the morality you have with the bible is subjective and relativist. Do you believe homosexuality is ok? Some Christian, reading the same bible, disagrees with you. Do you think divorce is acceptable? Same thing. Same book, but everyone interprets it differently. So every person who reads the bible has a different morality after reading it. Tell me, how is that an absolute, perfect morality?

Also, the bible says that rape is ok as long as the girl is a virgin and you marry her afterwards if you get caught. Deuteronomy 22:28-29. Then Moses and his men rape the virgin women of Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24), and of Midian (Numbers 31:7-18). It also says that slavery is ok. Leviticus 25:44-46, Exodus 21:2-11. And slaves must not rebel: Ephesians 6:5; 1 Timothy 6:1-2. Jesus himself allowed slavery. Remember the story of the Roman soldier who wanted him to heal his slave? Did Jesus condemn the Roman for keeping a slave? No. He just healed it and went on with his life.

Morality from the bible is just as subjective as secular morality. The bible teaches that murder is wrong. We added rape (in ALL cases) and slavery to that. We've already departed from the moral law of the bible and therefore GOD. Are all the moralities that diverge one iota from the bible -including the Old Testement - wrong? Because unless we follow it completely, it's no good to point to the bible and say it's the absolute morality if there are things in it that don't seem moral enough to listen to.
 
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Amiga1200

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I used to think this too. But as far as I understand quantum mechanics, the limits on measurement placed on the universe by the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principles means that we will never be able to know the exact conditions of any state of the universe, which means that we will never be able to predict with any accuracy the exact state of the universe at any other time or space, which means that uncertainty (and therefore chance) is an inherent property of the universe.
Yeah, I was including that in my analysis - hence the impossibility of LaPlace's Daemon invading our subjective individual experience of free will. Of course, LaPlace's Daemon would also involve capturing a parallel/alternate universe of slightly larger size and making it a 100% efficient machine solely for measuring and calculating the state and movement of particles in this universe... not just overcoming Heisenberg.

But, that is the point. Free will denotes both freedom (i.e. autonomy) and will. Random chance is neither. Random deviations in electron placement in QM aren't "control", but merely a result of unknown cause which happens just as surely in inorganic and inanimate objects as in thinking beings. For free will to exist, there must be a way for humans to "control" the firing of neurons or the closing of synaptic pathways within the context of quantum particles and their inherent uncertainty. But what could initiate that "ability to control" but other deterministic or random factors? We can't choose the moment at which our budding CNS first works, and when it starts it is completely uninformed (and thus incapable of autonomy). We don't choose any of the inputs or stimuli (whatever goes on in the womb, what we see after birth, who and what we are exposed to chemically, environmentally, visually, our genetic and congenital predispositions) that shape that CNS (i.e. "us"), whether taken in the abstract or broken down into the individual chains of particulate reactions that form our "conscious analysis" of those stimuli. Thus, the framework within which we would somehow begin utilizing "free will" is entirely determined and unfree in its construction! And, how would those free will feedback loops be halted for us to make a second/third/fourth "decision" based on any other information (in the sense of any data point) set we have previously absorbed ... besides that which came about as the inevitable result of this mythical "first decision"?

But, to be clear, I believe that morality doesn't exist, whether through God or without God. The only thing that a mystical belief in a "soul" not bound to the physical laws of this universe would do is temporarily impose a disconnect between two different pre-existing sets of information (the brain and the soul) that would quickly be forced into alignment in the same way that the two sides of a locking torque converter quickly reach equal speed and then function thenceforth as one.

:cool::sorry:
 
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TomZzyzx

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ForaOne said:
And the morality you have with the bible is subjective and relativist. Do you believe homosexuality is ok? Some Christian, reading the same bible, disagrees with you. Do you think divorce is acceptable? Same thing. Same book, but everyone interprets it differently. So every person who reads the bible has a different morality after reading it. Tell me, how is that an absolute, perfect morality?

Also, the bible says that rape is ok as long as the girl is a virgin and you marry her afterwards if you get caught. Deuteronomy 22:28-29. Then Moses and his men rape the virgin women of Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24), and of Midian (Numbers 31:7-18). It also says that slavery is ok. Leviticus 25:44-46, Exodus 21:2-11. And slaves must not rebel: Ephesians 6:5; 1 Timothy 6:1-2. Jesus himself allowed slavery. Remember the story of the Roman soldier who wanted him to heal his slave? Did Jesus condemn the Roman for keeping a slave? No. He just healed it and went on with his life.

Morality from the bible is just as subjective as secular morality. The bible teaches that murder is wrong. We added rape (in ALL cases) and slavery to that. We've already departed from the moral law of the bible and therefore GOD. Are all the moralities that diverge one iota from the bible -including the Old Testement - wrong? Because unless we follow it completely, it's no good to point to the bible and say it's the absolute morality if there are things in it that don't seem moral enough to listen to.

Let me first say, just because some people interpret the bible differently does not mean that the bible doesn't teach perfect morality. It just doesn't follow.

Everyone does not interpret the bible differently. There are not millions of different interpretations about divorce.

Duet. 22:28-29 does not say rape is ok. In fact it says the opposite, it says that the man has violated her, and he must pay for his crime by giving money to the girls father.

I'm not able to explain the slavery issue, but here is a link to a blog that explains it very well. http://str.typepad.com/weblog/2009/08/did-god-condone-slavery.html
 
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Mr. Pedantic

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Yeah, I was including that in my analysis - hence the impossibility of LaPlace's Daemon invading our subjective individual experience of free will. Of course, LaPlace's Daemon would also involve capturing a parallel/alternate universe of slightly larger size and making it a 100% efficient machine solely for measuring and calculating the state and movement of particles in this universe... not just overcoming Heisenberg.

But, that is the point. Free will denotes both freedom (i.e. autonomy) and will. Random chance is neither. Random deviations in electron placement in QM aren't "control", but merely a result of unknown cause which happens just as surely in inorganic and inanimate objects as in thinking beings. For free will to exist, there must be a way for humans to "control" the firing of neurons or the closing of synaptic pathways within the context of quantum particles and their inherent uncertainty. But what could initiate that "ability to control" but other deterministic or random factors? We can't choose the moment at which our budding CNS first works, and when it starts it is completely uninformed (and thus incapable of autonomy). We don't choose any of the inputs or stimuli (whatever goes on in the womb, what we see after birth, who and what we are exposed to chemically, environmentally, visually, our genetic and congenital predispositions) that shape that CNS (i.e. "us"), whether taken in the abstract or broken down into the individual chains of particulate reactions that form our "conscious analysis" of those stimuli. Thus, the framework within which we would somehow begin utilizing "free will" is entirely determined and unfree in its construction! And, how would those free will feedback loops be halted for us to make a second/third/fourth "decision" based on any other information (in the sense of any data point) set we have previously absorbed ... besides that which came about as the inevitable result of this mythical "first decision"?

But, to be clear, I believe that morality doesn't exist, whether through God or without God. The only thing that a mystical belief in a "soul" not bound to the physical laws of this universe would do is temporarily impose a disconnect between two different pre-existing sets of information (the brain and the soul) that would quickly be forced into alignment in the same way that the two sides of a locking torque converter quickly reach equal speed and then function thenceforth as one.

:cool::sorry:
Note the following is my thought process on this for the first time. It's not refined, and it may not be logically sound.

If you think about it, what is free will? It's the ability (or appearance) to make decisions without outside constraints. Obviously complete determinism would be a huge constraint, but this is not the case.

When it comes down to it, decisions are made by your brain analyzing the data received from your senses, and responding. Obviously, because chance is an inherent part of the universe, there can never be two situations that are exactly identical. Therefore, in each case, the brain will respond in a different way. But given the nature of the brain, similar sets of circumstances will produce similar outputs, like the CPU of a computer (or the hundreds of thousands of interconnected CPUs of a supercomputer).

This means that the decisions are mostly set. The brain responds to stimuli according to the way it has been organized, and each stimulus in turn modifies the organization of the brain. Like an iterative fractal, since each stimulus is subtly different, over time huge divergence between two minds will occur, no matter how much we may strive to keep them the same.

So what we have is a model of the brain, where our lives are led and decisions made through subtle imbalances in stoichiometries of chemical reactions and ion movements. The differences between brains means that when confronted with similar stimuli, two different brains may choose different results; this creates the illusion of choice.

This would mean, then, that there is no such thing as choice, and it may even be that everyone and everything in the universe is on a set path and cannot be changed(?) However, due to the Uncertainty Principle, it is impossible, both in practice and in principle, to know this path, and therefore it is impossible for us to use this knowledge in any meaningful way regarding the prediction of choice.

I have to admit that I find this hard to reconcile with what I can observe easily. If I want to spontaneously pick up my mouse, I can do so. If I want to knock my lamp onto the ground, I can do so. But does this mean that the doing was already pre-determined? That it could not have happened any other way?
 
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Non sequitur

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Duet. 22:28-29 does not say rape is ok. In fact it says the opposite, it says that the man has violated her, and he must pay for his crime by giving money to the girls father.

Riiiiiiight.

And that makes it OK, somehow...

I'm not able to explain the slavery issue, but here is a link to a blog that explains it very well. Stand to Reason Blog: Did God Condone Slavery?

"God regulated divorce, and yet He explicitly said He hates it, so the regulation of the practice did not mean He condoned it. Therefore, one cannot assume that God's regulation of slavery meant God condoned slavery."

Wonder why he didn't say he hated slavery, also...
 
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Amiga1200

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@Mr.Pedantic: I think that you and I largely agree, at least based on your analysis (which I liked). I agree that its hard to reconcile, which is why I'm an idealistic and proactive person going forward but I'm utterly amoral when looking at the past. I don't know the future and I can still perceive myself to be rationally governed by certain utilitarian conceits... so I "fight for them" even if the method and result of thaat fight was not really my doing or even if there is really no separate "me"! This has the happy consequence of leaving no guilt, though I don't know if an entire lifetime free from guilt will counterbalance my Catholic upbringing :D.
 
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quatona

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You have this completely wrong. The only kind of morality you get without a moral law giver is a subjective, relativist morality. Two separate groups of people might have a different morality. One group might say that rape and murder is ok. We all need a moral law giver to tell us what is right and what is wrong.
The law given by a law giver would still be subjective.
 
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TomZzyzx

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Non sequitur said:
Riiiiiiight.

And that makes it OK, somehow...

"God regulated divorce, and yet He explicitly said He hates it, so the regulation of the practice did not mean He condoned it. Therefore, one cannot assume that God's regulation of slavery meant God condoned slavery."

Wonder why he didn't say he hated slavery, also...

Are you kidding me? Looks like you didn't even read what I said about Deut. 22:28-29. I said "Duet. 22:28-29 does not say rape is ok. In fact it says the opposite, it says that the man has violated her, and he must pay for his crime by giving money to the girls father." So I guess that does not make it "OK".
 
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ToddNotTodd

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The law it self can only be objective moral truths. How people apply those laws are subjective to them.

If they're objective moral truths, then they're objectively true independent of anyone's opinion about them, including a god's opinion.
 
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TomZzyzx

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ToddNotTodd said:
If they're objective moral truths, then they're objectively true independent of anyone's opinion about them, including a god's opinion.

That's true, except that Christian's believe that the God of the bible is that author of the objective moral truths.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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That's true, except that Christian's believe that the God of the bible is that author of the objective moral truths.

You misunderstand. You can say that your god ascribes to objective moral truths (if they existed), but these moral truths would be true if your god didn't exist at all. That's what objective means. There's no author. What you're talking about is subjective morality.
 
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ForaOne

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Are you kidding me? Looks like you didn't even read what I said about Deut. 22:28-29. I said "Duet. 22:28-29 does not say rape is ok. In fact it says the opposite, it says that the man has violated her, and he must pay for his crime by giving money to the girls father." So I guess that does not make it "OK".

Funny that it's the only verse you picked out of the rape verses I gave you.

It says that after the man rapes her, he must pay money to her father and then marry her and he can never divorce her. So if he rapes a virgin, he gets a new wife, and the money is nothing more than a bride price.
 
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Mr. Pedantic

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@Mr.Pedantic: I think that you and I largely agree, at least based on your analysis (which I liked). I agree that its hard to reconcile, which is why I'm an idealistic and proactive person going forward but I'm utterly amoral when looking at the past. I don't know the future and I can still perceive myself to be rationally governed by certain utilitarian conceits... so I "fight for them" even if the method and result of thaat fight was not really my doing or even if there is really no separate "me"! This has the happy consequence of leaving no guilt, though I don't know if an entire lifetime free from guilt will counterbalance my Catholic upbringing :D.
:D

Though the question needs to be asked: even if there is no free will, is the illusion of it enough?
 
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