Does Matthew 22:14 prove Calvinism and Predestination?

[Dave L]

Really? Just because I believe what the Bible says... that you can actually respond to the Holy Spirit? The total bondage of the will makes faith irrelevant. Yet, we are told we can increase our faith and that people are rewarded for having faith. How can you be rewarded for something that is irresistibly impossed upon you?

Who doesn't say they believe the bible? Even the Pharisees say that.

 

[Dave L]

This is totally backwards. For one, you are arguing with the scripture there, for another God says that without knowledge of the law, there is no sin.

Paul says that even before a person comes to Christ he ought to recognize the grace he was given through the creation. You're modifying your position though. Your doctrine is a moving target that tries to escape it's own illogic whenever that illogic is exposed.

Now what you're saying is that God not only has to zap you in order that you obey, but that he has to make you sin so you can learn his attributes. Let's not forget that he created gravity and all of creation as a set of tools to make you sin, rather than blessings. Weird god you worship.

Why would anyone need mercy if not sinful?

 

[Dave L]

And the Calvinist one is false, because we are told over and over again in Scripture that Faith precedes regeneration.

Faith is a fruit of regeneration (the Holy Spirit).

 

[Dave L]

You're repeating a slogan that can't be found in scripture. James says that a dead faith cannot save a man.

But works cannot save according to Paul.

 

[renniks]

Our will is not free to choose anything but sin unless born again.

And we can't be born again unless we choose to respond to his call, so I guess we are all doomed.
But, it doesn't say any such thing.
Instead it says stuff like this:

If you confess that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised him from death, you will be saved. For it is by our faith that we are put right with God; it is by our confession that we are saved. (Romans 10:9-10)

Since you have accepted Christ Jesus as Lord, live in union with him. Keep your roots deep in him, build your lives on him, and become stronger in your faith, as you were taught. And be filled with thanksgiving. (Colossians 2:6-7)

Hmmm... Seems you are dead wrong.

 

[renniks]

Faith is a fruit of regeneration (the Holy Spirit).

Nope,
Faith comes first,
then regeneration.

As Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the desert, in the same way the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not die but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to be its judge, but to be its savior. (John 3:14-17)

 

[Dave L]

Nope,
Faith comes first,
then regeneration.

As Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the desert, in the same way the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not die but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to be its judge, but to be its savior. (John 3:14-17)

You are turning the fruit of salvation into the flesh driven means of self-salvation. Whoever believes (trait) vs whoever "chooses" to believe (work of the flesh).

 

[Dave L]

And we can't be born again unless we choose to respond to his call, so I guess we are all doomed.
But, it doesn't say any such thing.
Instead it says stuff like this:

If you confess that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised him from death, you will be saved. For it is by our faith that we are put right with God; it is by our confession that we are saved. (Romans 10:9-10)

Since you have accepted Christ Jesus as Lord, live in union with him. Keep your roots deep in him, build your lives on him, and become stronger in your faith, as you were taught. And be filled with thanksgiving. (Colossians 2:6-7)

Hmmm... Seems you are dead wrong.

You cannot discern spiritual truth unless first saved (born again). = false Jesus every time.

 

[nolidad]

Judas was condemned because he betrayed Jesus. We don't know if he was originally a true follower or not, but he made his own choice, like everyone. He had the opportunity and ability to be saved.

Judas was not condemned because he betrayed Jesus, Judas was condemned because He rejected the Messiahship of Jesus when He was taught and shown Jesus was Messiah.

 

[nolidad]

He could have given her an eternity. If she didn't have the capability to repent, there would be no amount of time that could have helped. You do see the illogic of what you preach don't you?

Human logic maybe. But God is not bound by what we think is fair or unfair, right or wrong, logical or illogical.

 

[nolidad]

He in fact was saved. He lost his salvation as Peter preached when they chose another apostle to replace him. He had been given a part in the ministry and of his own volition chose another path.

Judas was never saved.

John 6:70-71 King James Version (KJV)
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

This was written long before Judas betrayed Jesus.

Even the OT prophesied that he would betray Jesus. He was never saved. He was one of the Matt. 7 folk:

Matthew 7:21-23 King James Version (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

God never had a relationship with Judas, that was a saving relationship.

 

[nolidad]

You seem to have no problem speculating that God did not grant her the ability to repent.

You seem to have a problem realizing the bible says that those in their flesh cannot please God! If you believe repenting is something that does not please God, then we can discuss that option, but you will need to show it from Scripture and not mere human speculation!

 

[renniks]

You are turning the fruit of salvation into the flesh driven means of self-salvation. Whoever believes (trait) vs whoever "chooses" to believe (work of the flesh).

You are arguing against God's Word.

 

[renniks]

You cannot discern spiritual truth unless first saved (born again). = false Jesus every time.

Again, you argue against God's Word, not me.

 

[nolidad]

You might want to take a closer look at the definition of the Greek word aírō (G142) and particularly how it applies to things that are attached to something.


1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish
2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear
3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease

I did! The primary definition ( you do realize that each one of these is a different use of the word) is to lift up or elevate. And given that Jesus was using the example of a grape vine and that in His day Grapes were not grown on arbors, the primary definition is the one that would be understood.

What you have to do is to show why the primary, and th esecondary definition are not valid for this passage and one must go to the tertiary definition.

 

[Dave L]

Again, you argue against God's Word, not me.

It's your interpretation of God's word I argue against.

 

[Dave L]

You are arguing against God's Word.

What I say comes from God's word and it refutes your interpretation of God's word.

 

[renniks]

What I say comes from God's word and it refutes your interpretation of God's word.

Lol, so post no scripture and just say you are right. Yeah that's quite an argument.

 

[Dave L]

Lol, so post no scripture and just say you are right. Yeah that's quite an argument.

I have plenty of scripture but usually spend it on a worthy cause.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Scripture defines the Christ we serve. If we get that wrong, we get him wrong.

So then your saying that only one denomination of Christianity will be saved?