Does Matthew 22:14 prove Calvinism and Predestination?

[Al Touthentop]

God uses means. All the stuff that makes things happen.

God doesn't need external means. Persuasion is totally unnecessary according to your doctrine since men have no free will. They cannot be persuaded of anything that is against God's will. "For who has resisted God's will?" If God's will is that you sin, then you sin. If his will is that you obey, then you obey. Persuasion is superfluous.

But you have already stated that you think free will was available to men in the Old Testament. That's not what Calvin taught so I wonder if this is just a bit of a crack in your shell since it's obvious that free will did exist and men could obey or disobey by their use of it.

 

[Dave L]

God doesn't need external means. Persuasion is totally unnecessary according to your doctrine since men have no free will. They cannot be persuaded of anything that is against God's will. "For who has resisted God's will?" If God's will is that you sin, then you sin. If his will is that you obey, then you obey. Persuasion is superfluous.

But you have already stated that you think free will was available to men in the Old Testament. That's not what Calvin taught so I wonder if this is just a bit of a crack in your shell since it's obvious that free will did exist and men could obey or disobey by their use of it.

So no need of gravity? Or the Sun? What else can you think of that he probably doesn't need?

 

[Al Touthentop]

You destroy grace and turn the gospel into law if you involve the human will at any point leading up to salvation. It becomes useful after salvation in holiness and repentance.

Commands are given. That is the very definition of Grace. James calls the Gospel, "the perfect law of liberty." The Gospel is a law.

 

[Al Touthentop]

So no need of gravity? Or the Sun? What else can you think of that he probably doesn't need?

So now you argue that the creation was really a means by which God could cause people to sin? Please don't tell me that's what you believe. What Paul preached is that the creation was what should convince people, persuade them, that they should turn to God and repent, not that it was designed to cause them to sin. You are turning the gospel on its head in your defense of gross illogic.

25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

 

[Al Touthentop]

So no need of gravity? Or the Sun? What else can you think of that he probably doesn't need?

The creation is evidence of God's kindness, greatness and worthiness to worship. Men in spite of the evidence, disobeyed, not because they were forced to disobey.

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is [e]manifest [f]in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and [g]Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like [h]corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But you believe as they do about free will. And fight to condemn the Reformers.

I’m not condemning anyone brother. Praise The Lord that you are a fellow servant of Christ. I’m just trying to help others understand God’s word.

 

[renniks]

But you are more like the Catholics in "free will".

Or more like Methodist, or Weslyan or some Baptists, or charismatics, or... lots of other denominations.

 

[renniks]

You don't want anything to do with God if the Reformers were right about him in sin and grace?

Where did I say that? I believe strongly in grace, BTW. I'm probably more reformed than some who go to reformed churches. I just happen to find that they get freewill all wrong. And that the logical conclusion of calvinism is determinism, which is more pagan then Christian.

 

[nolidad]

Then why did He give her time to repent? That would be like me waiting at the gate for my cows to come home knowing full well that I don’t have any cows. Lol

And Jesus never said she was incapable of repentance He said she didn’t want to. There’s a big difference between inability and being uncooperative.

Jezebel in revelation is symbolic for a false religious system.

If you want to know why He gsave her tiome to repent, you'll have to wait till heaven to find the answer. The bible gives no answer and neither should we. Any answer would be speculation.

Revelation 2:19-21 King James Version (KJV)
19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

You can assume what you will, but the natural unsaved person has no capacity to repent until God enables them to repent. Repentance is a good thing and those in the flesh cannot do anything good.

 

[renniks]

You destroy grace and turn the gospel into law if you involve the human will at any point leading up to salvation. It becomes useful after salvation in holiness and repentance.

So God irresistibly does everything up to salvation, then you have to work for it? What scripture tells us is that we must cooperate with him from the start to finish to remain in his will.

 

[renniks]

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

You can assume what you will, but the natural unsaved person has no capacity to repent until God enables them to repent. Repentance is a good thing and those in the flesh cannot do anything good.

Giving her the space to repent obviously means he enabled her to repent, but she chose not to.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Jezebel in revelation is symbolic for a false religious system.

Jezebel was a real person in a real church. We might extrapolate that there are modern parallels, but to say that when Jesus told John to write to seven churches which we know actually existed, that he really meant to write to seven church "ages" or he was just describing symbols of things is poor exegesis.

Repentance is a turning of the mind from one thing to another and in the New Testament it was intended that people turn their minds and actions from sin. Nowhere does it say this was done for them. Commanding somebody to do something they're incapable of doing is at best a lie, and at worst cruelty.

 

[nolidad]

"For there is no partiality with God."

That's what his word says. Your weird doctrine that says he made people to sin and then punishes them for doing what he made them to do, that's what's opinion and goes against his word.

You really are a careless reader aren't you ? God makes no one to sin, everyone sins because we are by nature sinners. God makes us to live holy and righteous once He calls us out of death and condemnation which is our natural state!

And keep that partiality in its grammatical, historical context and learn that it means Jews, Gentiles, women, slaves and all else all have equal else to god through Christ. That is not how it was before!

YOU and I sin because we are from Adam!

"18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Adam made us all sinners- and God knew abou tit before He created Adam and okayed it!

 

[nolidad]

You never did address my post# 294. Do you accept these scriptures the way God write them?

Yes I do, but your opinions afterwards are very wrong on a couple of them.

John 15:1-2 God does not cut odd branches in Christ. Takes away means to lift up! Grapes grew on the ground in Jesus day. They had no arbors, so if a branch was n't bearing fruit, the farmer liftred it up so dirt would not clog its pores so it could produce!

There was another one or two, but the differences we have are fairly minor.

 

[nolidad]

Giving her the space to repent obviously means he enabled her to repent, but she chose not to.

No it doesn't. It simply means God gave time to repent and she did not. When you look at all the other verses in teh NT about hwo one can repent and who is able to repent you come away with a far different knowledge of this verse.

 

[nolidad]

Jezebel was a real person in a real church. We might extrapolate that there are modern parallels, but to say that when Jesus told John to write to seven churches which we know actually existed, that he really meant to write to seven church "ages" or he was just describing symbols of things is poor exegesis.

Repentance is a turning of the mind from one thing to another and in the New Testament it was intended that people turn their minds and actions from sin. Nowhere does it say this was done for them. Commanding somebody to do something they're incapable of doing is at best a lie, and at worst cruelty.

Now you are mixing mans philosophy with the Word of God and coming up with an inedible soup!

Jesus made Judas an apostle even though he knew he would never get saved nor ever wish to repent (which is the case with all mankind without God intervening in our soul), but he made him an apostle anyway!

Remember this:

Romans 8:5-8 King James Version (KJV)
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


The call of God goes out everywhere! The elect will answer, the rest will and cannot! That is the Bible right above in Romans .

 

[renniks]

No it doesn't. It simply means God gave time to repent and she did not. When you look at all the other verses in teh NT about hwo one can repent and who is able to repent you come away with a far different knowledge of this verse.

So he condemned her for not repenting, when repentance was impossible. Right. Lol.

 

[renniks]

Jesus made Judas an apostle even though he knew he would never get saved nor ever wish to repent (which is the case with all mankind without God intervening in our soul), but he made him an apostle anyway!

Judas was condemned because he betrayed Jesus. We don't know if he was originally a true follower or not, but he made his own choice, like everyone. He had the opportunity and ability to be saved.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Judas was condemned because he betrayed Jesus. We don't know if he was originally a true follower or not, but he made his own choice, like everyone. He had the opportunity and ability to be saved.

He in fact was saved. He lost his salvation as Peter preached when they chose another apostle to replace him. He had been given a part in the ministry and of his own volition chose another path.

 

[Al Touthentop]

No it doesn't. It simply means God gave time to repent and she did not.

He could have given her an eternity. If she didn't have the capability to repent, there would be no amount of time that could have helped. You do see the illogic of what you preach don't you?