Does Matthew 22:14 prove Calvinism and Predestination?

[BNR32FAN]

Jezebel in revelation is symbolic for a false religious system.

If you want to know why He gsave her tiome to repent, you'll have to wait till heaven to find the answer. The bible gives no answer and neither should we. Any answer would be speculation.

Revelation 2:19-21 King James Version (KJV)
19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

You can assume what you will, but the natural unsaved person has no capacity to repent until God enables them to repent. Repentance is a good thing and those in the flesh cannot do anything good.

You seem to have no problem speculating that God did not grant her the ability to repent.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes I do, but your opinions afterwards are very wrong on a couple of them.

John 15:1-2 God does not cut odd branches in Christ. Takes away means to lift up! Grapes grew on the ground in Jesus day. They had no arbors, so if a branch was n't bearing fruit, the farmer liftred it up so dirt would not clog its pores so it could produce!

There was another one or two, but the differences we have are fairly minor.

You might want to take a closer look at the definition of the Greek word aírō (G142) and particularly how it applies to things that are attached to something.


1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish
2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear
3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease

 

[Dave L]

So God irresistibly does everything up to salvation, then you have to work for it? What scripture tells us is that we must cooperate with him from the start to finish to remain in his will.

It works like this. You are spiritually dead and cannot discern Christ. You will only choose a false Christ to worship if any at all. God in his mercy gives a new heart to those Christ died for. It is their nature to love God, discern spiritual truth and live a holy life. So we are speaking of two different Christs. Two different religions. Two different gospels. One false the other true.

 

[Dave L]

Where did I say that? I believe strongly in grace, BTW. I'm probably more reformed than some who go to reformed churches. I just happen to find that they get freewill all wrong. And that the logical conclusion of calvinism is determinism, which is more pagan then Christian.

If Calvin or Luther were right, you hate God as they proclaimed him. And you love the Catholic free will model instead.

 

[Dave L]

Or more like Methodist, or Weslyan or some Baptists, or charismatics, or... lots of other denominations.

Who love catholicism's free will model as you do.

 

[Dave L]

The creation is evidence of God's kindness, greatness and worthiness to worship. Men in spite of the evidence, disobeyed, not because they were forced to disobey.

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is [e]manifest [f]in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and [g]Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like [h]corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

No sin, no knowledge of God's attributes.

 

[Dave L]

I’m not condemning anyone brother. Praise The Lord that you are a fellow servant of Christ. I’m just trying to help others understand God’s word.

We do not serve the same Christ if Calvin was right about sin and grace.

 

[Dave L]

Commands are given. That is the very definition of Grace. James calls the Gospel, "the perfect law of liberty." The Gospel is a law.

Law destroys grace. James speaks of the saved viewing of the law of liberty they live by now that they are saved.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Law destroys grace. James speaks of the saved viewing of the law of liberty they live by now that they are saved.

You're repeating a slogan that can't be found in scripture. James says that a dead faith cannot save a man.

 

[renniks]

It works like this. You are spiritually dead and cannot discern Christ. You will only choose a false Christ to worship if any at all. God in his mercy gives a new heart to those Christ died for. It is their nature to love God, discern spiritual truth and live a holy life. So we are speaking of two different Christs. Two different religions. Two different gospels. One false the other true.

And the Calvinist one is false, because we are told over and over again in Scripture that Faith precedes regeneration.

 

[Al Touthentop]

No sin, no knowledge of God's attributes.

This is totally backwards. For one, you are arguing with the scripture there, for another God says that without knowledge of the law, there is no sin.

Paul says that even before a person comes to Christ he ought to recognize the grace he was given through the creation. You're modifying your position though. Your doctrine is a moving target that tries to escape it's own illogic whenever that illogic is exposed.

Now what you're saying is that God not only has to zap you in order that you obey, but that he has to make you sin so you can learn his attributes. Let's not forget that he created gravity and all of creation as a set of tools to make you sin, rather than blessings. Weird god you worship.

 

[renniks]

If Calvin or Luther were right, you hate God as they proclaimed him. And you love the Catholic free will model instead.

Really? Just because I believe what the Bible says... that you can actually respond to the Holy Spirit? The total bondage of the will makes faith irrelevant. Yet, we are told we can increase our faith and that people are rewarded for having faith. How can you be rewarded for something that is irresistibly impossed upon you?

 

[renniks]

Who love catholicism's free will model as you do.

Without free will, nothing we do is our doing. If I sin, it's God's will. If I don't sin, it's God's will. I'm just a puppet. If that's the case why are you arguing with a puppet, who is only saying what God caused him to say?

 

[Al Touthentop]

IGod in his mercy gives a new heart to those Christ died for.

He does that through his word. We hear it, and if we accept it, our hearts are turned to flesh rather than stone. The day of Pentecost is the perfect example of how that worked.

Peter preached to people who had crucified Christ. When he and the apostles spoke the words of God, those same people, who formerly had stony hearts, were then cut to the heart. It was the word that did that when they believed.

 

[Al Touthentop]

We do not serve the same Christ if Calvin was right about sin and grace.

We've been trying to tell you that.

When the Jesus came down off the mountain from praying and found his disciples unable to heal a man's son, he rebuked them for not having faith.

Matthew 17
5 And the apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith.”

6 So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you. 7 And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and sit down to eat’? 8 But will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink’? 9 Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded [e]him? I think not. 10 So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’ ”

It is totally inappropriate to think that you can turn around your master's command to you and ask him to do it for you. Jesus makes it clear here that faith is our responsibility as the servant obeying the master's command, not the master's to provide.

 

[BNR32FAN]

We do not serve the same Christ if Calvin was right about sin and grace.

I don’t think that differences in scriptural interpretation change who we are serving.

 

[Dave L]

I don’t think that differences in scriptural interpretation change who we are serving.

Scripture defines the Christ we serve. If we get that wrong, we get him wrong.

 

[Dave L]

We've been trying to tell you that.

When the Jesus came down off the mountain from praying and found his disciples unable to heal a man's son, he rebuked them for not having faith.

Matthew 17
5 And the apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith.”

6 So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you. 7 And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and sit down to eat’? 8 But will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink’? 9 Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded [e]him? I think not. 10 So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’ ”

It is totally inappropriate to think that you can turn around your master's command to you and ask him to do it for you. Jesus makes it clear here that faith is our responsibility as the servant obeying the master's command, not the master's to provide.

Only the born again have faith, it's a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dave L]

He does that through his word. We hear it, and if we accept it, our hearts are turned to flesh rather than stone. The day of Pentecost is the perfect example of how that worked.

Peter preached to people who had crucified Christ. When he and the apostles spoke the words of God, those same people, who formerly had stony hearts, were then cut to the heart. It was the word that did that when they believed.

It happened to me before I read the word. It caused me to believe and study the word.

 

[Dave L]

Without free will, nothing we do is our doing. If I sin, it's God's will. If I don't sin, it's God's will. I'm just a puppet. If that's the case why are you arguing with a puppet, who is only saying what God caused him to say?

Our will is not free to choose anything but sin unless born again.