Does man have a freewill ?

[CoreyD]

@CoreyD



Christ came as a Surety Covenant representative for a Covenant people Isa 42:6-7,21

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

So when Christ was water baptized it was in fulfillment of the law righteousness God required for life, He magnified the Law of God in His Life and Death for all the elect of God,

So all for whom He lived and died, God for Hs sake imputes to them righteousness, He declares them righteous by His obedience to death Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So when Christ submitted to Johns Baptism, it was in obedience to a Law righteousness needed to be fulfilled to finish His covenant work !

Hey Brightflame.
The thread has gone way off topic.
If you want to discuss this, it's possible to start a new thread.

 

[Clare73]

Talking about Jesus' baptism here.
What repentance did Jesus' baptism symbolize?
Please don't just assert, as you are doing. Provide scripture(s) please.

Trying to decide if I really want to do this. . .

While I'm deciding, I will proceed:

Water cleanses. . .repenance cleanses from sin. . .baptism symbolizes the cleansing of sin by repentance.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
Perhaps you can be more specific about what you are saying.
What scripture, or law does Jesus' being baptized fulfill?

It was not in fulfillment of the Law.

What repentance did Jesus' baptism symbolize?

Jesus "fulfilled all righteousness" in his baptism (Mt 3:15)

Baptism in itself symbolizes repentance, cleansing.

Whereas, Jesus' baptism symbolized that he was consecrated to God and officially approved by him, that all Gods righteous requirements for the Messiah were met in him, he was clean, as seen in the descent of the Holy Spirit (Mt 3:16) and the words of the Father (Mt 3:17). . .also a demonstration of the Trinity.

 

[Brightfame52]

Glorying in the Cross not freewill of man !

Gal 6:14

14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by [The Cross] whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Christ's death, His crucifixion for those He died for produced results unto them, for by its Power it establishes them in a Right Spiritual Relationship with God, it delivers them from this present evil world according to the Will of God Gal 1:3-5

3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

You see the purpose of His death was to deliver from this present evil world, and that my friends is why Paul said that He glories in the Cross, because by it he has been crucified to the world and the world to him, he was delivered from it , not by freewill, but by His Cross !

That word deliver means:


I.
to pluck out, draw out, i.e. root out
II.
to choose out (for one's self), select, one person from many

III.
to rescue, deliver

4 Who gave (yielded) Himself up [to atone] for our sins [and to save and sanctify us], in order to rescue and deliver us from this present wicked age and world order, in accordance with the will and purpose and plan of our God and Father—AMP

Yes being delivered from this present evil world is the same as Paul saying in Gal 6:14

14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

They are or will be delivered from a false religious world system, a friendship with the world James 4:4

4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

1 Jn 2:15

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

 

[Brightfame52]

Glorying in the Cross not freewill of man ! 2

See the word world many times in the NT scriptures means false religion or the religious ways of the world, like here Col 2:8,20

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

That's what Paul means by being crucified to the world by the Cross Gal 6:14

Then we have statements by Christ Himself saying to His disciples Jn 15:18-20

18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

The world in this passage is not the irreligious world of pimps, prostitutes, drug attacks, fornicators, thieves and drunkards and so on, but the world here is satanic inspired religion, like as in this case the very religious Pharisees of apostate Judaism !

The world here again are those in the synagogues Jn 16:1-2

These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

This is the hate from the world that Christ mostly encountered, and what His disciples would encounter, and Jesus calls this the world !

Lets recall saul, later Paul and recall the hate he had against True Christianity Acts 9:1-2


And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

Then he was of the World, but not in a irreligious way, for remember he stated Phil 3:4-6

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

and then Gal 1:13-14

13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

See, he was not a fornicator, a drunkard and robber, but a exceedingly zealous religious man, probably with the most upright character and morals the flesh can mustard up ! Yet all that was nothing but being part of the world against Christ, and that's mainly the world that Paul is speaking of in Gal 6:14, that not his freewill decision to accept Christ delivered him from it, but the Cross of Christ did, and not only Paul, but it [THE CROSS] delivers all for whom He died from the World, and is every True Christians Boast, and not their so called freewill ! Either the Cross is ones boast or ones freewill, sorry but it cannot be both !

 

[Bro.T]

Does man have a freewill ?

I'm not asking does man have a will, sure he does. God created man with a will, and man has a responsible and accountable will that God gave him at creation. However the question remains, does man have a freewill ?

Man though he has a will, his will isn't free from Gods Sovereign Will and Purpose. Mans will is always subservient to Gods Sovereign Purpose !

I'm going to share some scripture which without doubt, indicate that mans will is subservient to Gods Will of Purpose.

Dan 4:34-35

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


Prov 16:9

9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

Prov 19:21

21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand.

Jer 10:23

23 O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

These are just a few verses, there are many more !

In the scriptures it's written in Deuteronomy 30: 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Paul quoted Moses in Romans 10: 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above 7 or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Let's continue reading Moses......

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 that thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

 

[Brightfame52]

In the scriptures it's written in Deuteronomy 30: 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Paul quoted Moses in Romans 10: 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above 7 or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Let's continue reading Moses......

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 that thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

And your point is ?

 

[Bro.T]

And your point is ?

The point is that everyone have a choice, also I was showing that Pau wasl quoting Moses, so both was saying the same thing if you have understanding. Let's add a little more.....A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).

This was a direct answer to a direct question, which all of us will do well to take heed to. Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).

 

[Brightfame52]

The point is that everyone have a choice, also I was showing that Pau wasl quoting Moses, so both was saying the same thing if you have understanding. Let's add a little more.....A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).

This was a direct answer to a direct question, which all of us will do well to take heed to. Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).

False statement