Does man have a freewill ?

[HBP]

Does Calvinism posit "free will."

Genuine free will = power to make all moral choices, including sinlessness.

Which power was marred in the fall, and is now limited to choosing what one prefers.

Prior to the fall, Adam could choose to be sinless.
We no longer have the power (will) to make that choice.
Our free will is partial, we now choose what we prefer, and radical sinlessness is not what we prefer.
We like our sin. . .until we are born again.

It's good that God has folks like you who know exactly how he thinks! I, alas, moved on from your theology l-o-n-g ago. Been there, done that, not gonna pretend anymore.

 

[Jerry N.]

Thanks for your response.
Regarding Job, the Bible shows God pointed to the man Job, as an example of godly integrity, amidst a crooked generation.
God said, there was no one like Job, on the earth at that time, so everyone else was "doing their own thing"... including Job's wife. Job 1:1-8

Satan challenged that Job's service was selfish, and was not out of love for God, but rather, for what he got out of God.
God allowed Satan to prove that claim, by allowing Job... like Jesus, to be opened to severe trials. Job 1:9-2:6

Both Job, and Jesus, proved Satan's claims to be false - a lie, and this was God's objective... to prove Satan a liar, before all the heavenly host.
It is like evidence presented in court that proves the accuser guilty, and therefore judged, and condemned as the liar.

This evidence answers one of Satan's challenges... that man serves God, only for what he gets, and not out of love.
We too, have the opportunity to prove Satan a liar, and give God the opportunity of having witnesses on his side, and giving an answer to Satan. Proverbs 27:11

I'm a bit uncertain as to why you gave me those scriptures in Isaiah.
Are these your basis for believing that God knew Adam would sin?
If so, can you please state what exactly in those scriptures says or implies to you that God knew Adam would sin. Thanks.

I think this is the first time I've seen Job and Jesus compared. It is a very good observation.
Isaiah 45:1-25 is about Cyrus and that God knew Cyrus’s whole life and arranged things so Cyrus could be God’s instrument. It is clear that Cyrus made his own choices (some of which were very bad), but God was in control. I thought it was a good example considering that the discussion was about God’s decrees and free will. It wasn't intended to be about Adam and Eve but about God's knowledge of future events. Maybe I misunderstood your original question.

I do think God knew Adam and Eve would sin, but He did not decree that they would. God is always grieved when man sins.

 

[Jerry N.]

It's good that God has folks like you who know exactly how he thinks! I, alas, moved on from your theology l-o-n-g ago. Been there, done that, not gonna pretend anymore.

I studied Arminianism and Calvinism many years ago. This thread has made me look at it again. I’ve always leaned toward Arminiansim, but I found that many Calvinists have a less strict view of what Calvin taught. The idea of “once saved always saved” seemed to be the focus rather than that God decreed all human action. The idea that a person who professed to be Christian and then turned away was always met with the idea that they were never saved in the first place. Of course, this can’t be proven to be true one way or another. From what I’ve seen, God puts a lot of pressure on Christians who are falling from grace. He doesn’t give them up easily, but He allows them free will.

 

[BBAS 64]

When God had the city of Jerusalem and its temple buildings, along with many unbelieving Jews, destroyed in 70 AD, is that what God planned all along for His purposes or did He do that as punishment because of the Jews willingly choosing to reject His Son (not all of them did, but most)?

Clearly, it's not what He wanted to happen, as evidenced by what Jesus said here:

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate;

And here:

Luke 19:41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

God does not decree sin, He punishes sin.

Good day, SP

I never suggested that it is not a willing choice to reject Christ.

We are all volitional creatures we have the ability to choose and reject. The question is what is that effective cause that causes the will to act in one way or another? There is nothing with in a man that would cause him to hate the darkness he loves...his heart is full of wickedness and he freely chooses the darkness (positive value) , and rebukes (negative value) the light because his wicked heart hates it and he does so freely.

As to Matt 23 there are 2 groups of people Jerusalem and (her- Your) children.

Who or what do these groups represent?
Who or what was unwilling (Jerusalem and (her- Your) children)

If you suppose that this has anything do do with salvation ( I do not) but for the sake of the point. What happened to the free will choice of the children? Are you suggesting that the free will of the children does not exist?

In Him,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

I have trouble using the quote function, so I will do it the old fashioned way.

“Did God know they would... Yes”

I agree.

“Could they have done other wise than what God knew.... NO”

God knew what they would do, but they could have done otherwise.

“Could God if he chose stopped them from backsliding.... Yes”

I agree, but it would not be in God’s nature.

“Was it Necessary in the plan of God for them to back slide... Yes”

I disagree, but God had it covered both ways.

“Was it a decree irrelevant in my mind.”

I don’t know your mind.

Now if I may ask a couple questions.

“Is backsliding sin?”

Yes.

“Does sin serve God's purposes?”

God can make any situation serve His purpose.

“Did God decree that His Son would die for sinners?”

Yes, but one has to take into account that Christ chose to die for us.

“Is sin a necessary to fulfill the decree of God?”

No, if Adam and Eve did not sin, everything would have been different.

This is very interesting and has opened a new channel of thought. Thank you.

Good day, Jerry

Thanks...

So I can fully understand where this logically lands:

"God knew what they would do, but they could have done otherwise."

So he really did not know, he would have learned after they choose otherwise?

"God can make any situation serve His purpose."

So God reacts to the out come of situations as he learns about them?

Thanks again...

In Him,

Bill

 

[Clare73]

How do I know that John the Baptist was not born again?
Who baptized John in water, and when was John anointed in holy spirit, like Jesus and his followers were?

Under what command was John to be baptized?
John was anointed in the womb.

Also, where in the scriptures does it say every person who obeys God, will be his anointed sons?

I give up. . .where?

The common false assumption that every person believing in God, will be taken to heaven, has led many into the false idea that they are born again.
That is not scriptural.
There is no need to say what we think on this Clare.
The Bible tells us...
Luke 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
What we think, is not important, is it.

Nor did John "need" to be baptized by anyone, there was no command that John be baptized.

What a strange term, to describe a strange teaching - something I have never seen in the Bible.
Where have you ever read about "rebirth of the human spirit from spiritual eternal death into spiritual eternal life"?
At Ephesians 2:1-5, Paul addresses born again followers of Christ.
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

These persons are alive. They are no longer dead in trespasses and sin.
How can you be born again, and be dead in trespass and sin Clare?
That cannot work.

How can I be dead in trespasses and sin if I am born again.
That cannot work.

However, many persons believe they are born again, because they have preconceived ideas, but that does not make them born again, does it.
What is the purpose of being born again, Clare?

You don't know the purpose of the new birth from spiritual eternal death into spiritual eternal life (Jn 3:3-5)?
You don't know that all mankind is born in spiritual death with the sin of Adam imputed to them (Ro 5:17, 12-16, 18-19), condemning them to damnation?
You don't know that salvation from that condemnation is only through the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) new birth of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5) and faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ (Eph 2:8-9)?
You don't know that the imputation of Adam's sin to all those of Adam (Ro 5:17, 14-16) is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19, 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, 13, 9:30, 10:6, Gal 3:16, Php 3:9)?

 

[Jerry N.]

Good day, Jerry

Thanks...

So I can fully understand where this logically lands:

"God knew what they would do, but they could have done otherwise."

So he really did not know, he would have learned after they choose otherwise?

"God can make any situation serve His purpose."

So God reacts to the out come of situations as he learns about them?

Thanks again...

In Him,

Bill

God reacting to outcomes is not what I meant to imply. I know that is pretty much what I wrote, but mark it down as poor writing skills. Whenever somebody sins, they make a choice to disobey God. There is a difference between giving a person a choice, while knowing what they will do, and making them take that choice. My father used to do that often. The focus should be put on what God is intending to make happen. His purpose is for us to learn His ways and do the right thing because of our devotion to Him. There is also a difference between knowing what will happen and making it happen. Since God’s ways are not our ways, it is difficult to work out the process; however, God has given me free will to make some very bad choices. I learned a lot, and I would like to think it helped me grow spiritually. This is what I think our journey through life is really about. Maybe this is why free will and predestination is such a paradox.

 

[Clare73]

It's good that God has folks like you who know exactly how he thinks! I, alas, moved on from your theology l-o-n-g ago. Been there, done that, not gonna pretend anymore.

But unable to Biblically demonstrate your assertion. . .leaving it without merit.

And likewise unable to demonstrate your assertion that Calvin presented free will.

 

[Clare73]

I studied Arminianism and Calvinism many years ago. This thread has made me look at it again. I’ve always leaned toward Arminiansim, but I found that many Calvinists have a less strict view of what Calvin taught. The idea of “once saved always saved” seemed to be the focus rather than that God decreed all human action. The idea that a person who professed to be Christian and then turned away was always met with the idea that they were never saved in the first place. Of course, this can’t be proven to be true one way or another.

Actually it can. . .

The Holy Spirit guarantees our inheritance (Eph 1:14, 2 Co 1:22, 5:5), we don't lose it.
You either have it or you don't. . .there is no "losing" it.
They never had it.

From what I’ve seen, God puts a lot of pressure on Christians who are falling from grace. He doesn’t give them up easily, but He allows them free will.

 

[CoreyD]

I think this is the first time I've seen Job and Jesus compared. It is a very good observation.
Isaiah 45:1-25 is about Cyrus and that God knew Cyrus’s whole life and arranged things so Cyrus could be God’s instrument. It is clear that Cyrus made his own choices (some of which were very bad), but God was in control. I thought it was a good example considering that the discussion was about God’s decrees and free will. It wasn't intended to be about Adam and Eve but about God's knowledge of future events. Maybe I misunderstood your original question.

I do think God knew Adam and Eve would sin, but He did not decree that they would. God is always grieved when man sins.

You would agree Cyrus is not Adam, right.
Because God foresaw the conquest of his people, and their captivity for 70 years in Babylon, and he exercised his foreknowledge at that time, to see exactly how things would turn out, that does not mean we should assume that God did the same in every man's life, would you agree?

As I stated in this post, The scriptures show quite clearly that God exercises his foreknowledge when he wishes, which does allow him to prophecy future events.
In the case of Abraham, God did not seek to know what Abraham would do. Genesis 22:11, 12
Nor did he look ahead to see what the offspring of Shem, Ham, and Japheth would turn out to be. Genesis 18:20, 21

The reason God searches hearts, is to get to know what is in man. Psalm 14:2; Jeremiah 17:10
So, you took quite a leap there, forming a conclusion, which is not a scriptural basis, but an assumption formed based on what you read in Isaiah. Isn't that so?

 

[CoreyD]

Under what command was John to be baptized?

Unless you are baptized in water, you are not born again. John 3:5; Acts 10:44-47; See this link also.
You are not a disciple either, if you do not get baptized, as Jesus commanded. Matthew 28:18-20

John was anointed in the womb.

I understand you believe that, but no scripture supports that idea.
In fact, the holy spirit fell on Elizabeth, as well as Mary, and they prophesied, but nowhere in the Bible do we read that these were anointed as spirit sons.
According to Acts 2:33, Jesus "having been exalted at the right hand of God, and having received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, He has poured out this which you are both seeing and hearing."

Only after his resurrection, did Jesus begin anointing those who would be spirit sons of God. Acts 1:4, 5
Not even Mary was anointed, until that time. She had to wait, like the others. Luke 29:49, 50
Jesus is the firstfruit. He was first to be anointed as a spirit son. 1 Corinthians 15:23; Colossians 1:18-20

So, when we consider the scriptures, it is incorrect to make the assumption that John was anointed in the womb.
Having an understanding of God's purpose in relation to spirit anointed sons is important in this regard.
Spirit anointed sons are joint heirs with Christ.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ. . .

I give up. . .where?

Nowhere, Clare.

Nor did John "need" to be baptized by anyone, there was no command that John be baptized.

There was no command that John be baptized, prior to Christ.
However, everyone needed to be baptized. It's a requirement, by Christ. Matthew 28:19, 20

How can I be dead in trespasses and sin if I am born again.
That cannot work.

Thank you.

You don't know the purpose of the new birth from spiritual eternal death into spiritual eternal life (Jn 3:3-5)?

No. There is no scripture that refers to spiritual eternal death into spiritual eternal life.
From whence did you get that?

It says it in those verses you referenced, the purpose of being born again... To enter the kingdom of heaven.
That's not for everyone... including you and I.

You don't know that all mankind is born in spiritual death with the sin of Adam imputed to them (Ro 5:17, 12-16, 18-19), condemning them to damnation?

Yes, I know that.
However, those with the new birth are not the only ones who will live forever, and not all who are born again have "spiritual eternal life". Hebrews 10:38; 2 Peter 2:17-22
They need to endure to the end. Matthew 24:13
Isn't that so?

You don't know that salvation from that condemnation is only through the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) new birth of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5) and faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ (Eph 2:8-9)?

If you are referring to fait, yes.
If you are referring to being born again, no.

Faith is the requirement for all people to have salvation from condemnation.
Being born again is the requirement for all those who will be in the kingdom of heaven. They are spirit anointed sons of God, for the purpose of being kings and priests in the heavenly kingdom. Revelation 5:9, 10

You don't know that the imputation of Adam's sin to all those of Adam (Ro 5:17, 14-16) is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19, 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, 13, 9:30, 10:6, Gal 3:16, Php 3:9)?

One scripture says that. Romans 5:18
However, my question was What is the purpose of being born again, Clare?

 

[Clare73]

Unless you are baptized in water, you are not born again. John 3:5; Acts 10:44-47; See this link also.

Water means cleanness, righteousness (1Jn 5:6), repentance of sin.

No. There is no scripture that refers to spiritual eternal death into spiritual eternal life.
From whence did you get that?

"Dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph 2:1) is spiritual eternal death unless one is born again (regenertaed) into spiritual eternal life (Jn 3:3-5).

It says it in those verses you referenced, the purpose of being born again... To enter the kingdom of heaven.
That's not for everyone... including you and I.
Yes, I know that.
However, those with the new birth are not the only ones who will live forever, and not all who are born again have "spiritual eternal life". Hebrews 10:38; 2 Peter 2:17-22
They need to endure to the end. Matthew 24:13
Isn't that so?

Eternal life in the new birth is just that. . .eternal, without end.

Those who do not endure never had eternal life.

If you are referring to fait, yes.
If you are referring to being born again, no.

Then you don't understand Jn 3:6-8.

One scripture says that. Romans 5:18

Ro 5:19 states the same. . .

So how many times must God say it before it is true?

However, my question was What is the purpose of being born again, Clare?

You dont' know?

To become a child of God (Jn 1:12-13). . .

We are born by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3), guilty of the sin of Adam imputed to us (Ro 5:17, 12-16, 18-19). . .
which is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the righteousness of Chist imputed to us (Ro 5:18-19, 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, 13 9:30, 10:6, Gal 3:16, Php 3:9), spiritually dead because of Adam's sin imputed to us, and must be re-born (Jn 3:3-5) into spiritual eternal life to become a child of God (Jn 1:12-13).

 

[CoreyD]

Water means cleanness, righteousness (1Jn 5:6), repentance of sin.

I'm not sure how this relates to being born by water.
Jesus certainly did not need cleaning, nor repenting from sins, but he underwent water baptism, as the first person to be born of water, followed by being born of spirit, when the holy spirit alighted on him.

"Dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph 2:1) is spiritual eternal death unless one is born again (regenertaed) into spiritual eternal life (Jn 3:3-5).

There is nothing in John 3:3-5 that says "unless one is born again (regenertaed) into spiritual eternal life".
It simply says... unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. ...unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Why are you saying one thing, and putting a scripture next to it which says something else?
Please find one scripture in the Bible that actually says " born again (regenertaed) into spiritual eternal life".
I've not seen one.

Eternal life in the new birth is just that. . .eternal, without end.

Those who do not endure never had eternal life.

Nor does anyone else.
John 3:16 and Hebrews 5:9 both make clear that having eternal life is dependent on continuous obedience, and not obeying today and not tomorrow.
These scriptures are in harmony with the three I referenced previously. Hebrews 10:38; 2 Peter 2:17-22; Matthew 24:13

Then you don't understand Jn 3:6-8.

If Romans 1:17 and Ephesians 2:8 are both false, then I didn't understand.
However, those scriptures plainly say, “The righteous will live by faith.”, and "For by grace you are saved through faith.".
Since both these scriptures are true, then I do know that what is required to be saved, is faith. Not being born again, as you asserted.

Jesus did not say one needs to be born again, to be saved.
A well known scripture... John 3:16 expresses this in simple words, but most people do not understand the purpose of the kingdom, and so they do not understand Jesus' words in John 3:3-8.
Unfortunately, they think they know, and don't need to know, they having expert knowledge... even when it is shown they don't know.

For example, some people do not know that no one was anointed by holy spirit prior to Jesus' anointing, and 33 C.E., but it doesn't humble them to say they need an understanding, when it becomes clear they lack it.

Ro 5:19 states the same. . .

So how many times must God say it before it is true?

Only once.
No one is denying it, so I'm not sure why you are asking.

You dont' know?

To become a child of God (Jn 1:12-13). . .

We are born by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3), guilty of the sin of Adam imputed to us (Ro 5:17, 12-16, 18-19). . .
which is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the righteousness of Chist imputed to us (Ro 5:18-19, 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, 13 9:30, 10:6, Gal 3:16, Php 3:9), spiritually dead because of Adam's sin imputed to us, and must be re-born (Jn 3:3-5) into spiritual eternal life to become a child of God (Jn 1:12-13).

Romans 8:14-17 reads... 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba,[e] Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs - heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

They are children of God, but, more importantly, adopted sons, and heirs - heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. (Romans 8:23; Ephesians 1:5)
That most significant purpose is what allows God's children to be freed from bondage to sin and death Romans 8:21, and enjoy everlasting blessings. Genesis 22:18; Galatians 3:15-18
This is why they are a priesthood. Hebrews 4:14-5:3; Revelation 1:6; Revelation 5:9, 10; 1 Peter 2:4-10
However, to discuss this, we need a new thread.

 

[David Lamb]

I'm not sure how this relates to being born by water.
Jesus certainly did not need cleaning, nor repenting from sins, but he underwent water baptism, as the first person to be born of water, followed by being born of spirit, when the holy spirit alighted on him.

No of course Jesus didn't have any sins to repent of. John was surprised that Jesus came to him to be baptised. Jesus told him:

“But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him.” (Mt 3:15 NKJV)

 

[Clare73]

I'm not sure how this relates to being born by water.

One's sin must be cleansed to be of the kingdom of God.

Jesus certainly did not need cleaning, nor repenting from sins, but he underwent water baptism,

Agreed. . .and he told us why (post #454).

There is nothing in John 3:3-5 that says "unless one is born again (regenertaed) into spiritual eternal life".

There is nothing in all of Scripture that states "God is Trinity, or "God is sovereign."

 

[Clare73]

I'm not sure how this relates to being born by water.
Jesus certainly did not need cleaning, nor repenting from sins, but he underwent water baptism, as the first person to be born of water, followed by being born of spirit, when the holy spirit alighted on him.



There is nothing in John 3:3-5 that says "unless one is born again (regenertaed) into spiritual eternal life".

THere is nothing in all of Scripture that states "God is Trinity, or "God is sovereign."

It simply says... unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. ...unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Why are you saying one thing, and putting a scripture next to it which says something else?
Please find one scripture in the Bible that actually says " born again (regenertaed) into spiritual eternal life".
I've not seen one.


Nor does anyone else.
John 3:16 and Hebrews 5:9 both make clear that having eternal life is dependent on continuous obedience, and not obeying today and not tomorrow.
These scriptures are in harmony with the three I referenced previously. Hebrews 10:38; 2 Peter 2:17-22; Matthew 24:13


If Romans 1:17 and Ephesians 2:8 are both false, then I didn't understand.
However, those scriptures plainly say, “The righteous will live by faith.”, and "For by grace you are saved through faith.".
Since both these scriptures are true, then I do know that what is required to be saved, is faith. Not being born again, as you asserted.

Jesus did not say one needs to be born again, to be saved.
A well known scripture... John 3:16 expresses this in simple words, but most people do not understand the purpose of the kingdom, and so they do not understand Jesus' words in John 3:3-8.
Unfortunately, they think they know, and don't need to know, they having expert knowledge... even when it is shown they don't know.

For example, some people do not know that no one was anointed by holy spirit prior to Jesus' anointing, and 33 C.E., but it doesn't humble them to say they need an understanding, when it becomes clear they lack it.


Only once.
No one is denying it, so I'm not sure why you are asking.


Romans 8:14-17 reads... 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba,[e] Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs - heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

They are children of God, but, more importantly, adopted sons, and heirs - heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. (Romans 8:23; Ephesians 1:5)
That most significant purpose is what allows God's children to be freed from bondage to sin and death Romans 8:21, and enjoy everlasting blessings. Genesis 22:18; Galatians 3:15-18
This is why they are a priesthood. Hebrews 4:14-5:3; Revelation 1:6; Revelation 5:9, 10; 1 Peter 2:4-10
However, to discuss this, we need a new thread.

 

[CoreyD]

One's sin must be cleansed to be of the kingdom of God.

Bathing in water does not cleanse sins, Clare.

Agreed. . .and he told us why (post #454).

To fulfill all righteousness? What does that mean, other than to do what is right according to God's will?
I don't see how that changes what was said.
Jesus certainly did not need cleaning, nor repenting from sins, but he underwent water baptism, as the first person to be born of water, followed by being born of spirit, when the holy spirit alighted on him.

What does it change?

There is nothing in all of Scripture that states "God is Trinity, or "God is sovereign."

Many persons has adopted that habit for which they are proud.
However, since it's a habit that Jesus and his apostles did not employ, I don't know why people feel proud of it, nor where they got it from.

The fact remains...
John 3:16 and Hebrews 5:9 both make clear that having eternal life is dependent on continuous obedience, and not obeying today and not tomorrow.
These scriptures are in harmony with the three I referenced previously. Hebrews 10:38; 2 Peter 2:17-22; Matthew 24:13

If Romans 1:17 and Ephesians 2:8 are both false, then I didn't understand.
However, those scriptures plainly say, “The righteous will live by faith.”, and "For by grace you are saved through faith.".
Since both these scriptures are true, then I do know that what is required to be saved, is faith. Not being born again, as you asserted.

Jesus did not say one needs to be born again, to be saved.
A well known scripture... John 3:16 expresses this in simple words, but most people do not understand the purpose of the kingdom, and so they do not understand Jesus' words in John 3:3-8.

No scripture supports the view that one has eternal life by being born again.

 

[Clare73]

Bathing in water does not cleanse sins, Clare.

Correct. . .it symolizes what repentance does.

To fulfill all righteousness? What does that mean, other than to do what is right according to God's will?

That means to do everything God prescribed for righteousness, even though he was already righteous.

I don't see how that changes what was said.
Jesus certainly did not need cleaning, nor repenting from sins, but he underwent water baptism, as the first person to be born of water, followed by being born of spirit, when the holy spirit alighted on him.

What does it change?

It's about completely fulfilling the Law, which he came to do.

Many persons has adopted that habit for which they are proud.
However, since it's a habit that Jesus and his apostles did not employ, I don't know why people feel proud of it, nor where they got it from.
The fact remains...
John 3:16 and Hebrews 5:9 both make clear that having eternal life is dependent on continuous obedience, and not obeying today and not tomorrow.
These scriptures are in harmony with the three I referenced previously. Hebrews 10:38; 2 Peter 2:17-22; Matthew 24:13
If Romans 1:17 and Ephesians 2:8 are both false, then I didn't understand.
However, those scriptures plainly say, “The righteous will live by faith.”, and "For by grace you are saved through faith.".
Since both these scriptures are true, then I do know that what is required to be saved, is faith. Not being born again, as you asserted.
Jesus did not say one needs to be born again, to be saved.
A well known scripture... John 3:16 expresses this in simple words, but most people do not understand the purpose of the kingdom, and so they do not understand Jesus' words in John 3:3-8.

No scripture supports the view that one has eternal life by being born again.

That's what "born of God" (Jn 1:13) in addition to born of man means.

"dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph 2:1). . .what kind of death was that, it was not physical. . .therefore, it was spiritual.

Rebirth . . .what kind of birth is that (Jn 3:3-5), it was not physical. . .therefore, it was spiritual, into the spiritual eternal (i.e., God's) life lost by Adam in the fall.

One is not a child of God (Jn 1:12-13) inheriting God's divine life apart from that spiritual rebirth (Jn 3:3-5) into God's life, which life is spiritual eternal life.

It appears that you subscribe to more wrong NT doctrine than I am willing to further address.

 

[Brightfame52]

@CoreyD

To fulfill all righteousness? What does that mean, other than to do what is right according to God's will?

Christ came as a Surety Covenant representative for a Covenant people Isa 42:6-7,21

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

So when Christ was water baptized it was in fulfillment of the law righteousness God required for life, He magnified the Law of God in His Life and Death for all the elect of God,

So all for whom He lived and died, God for Hs sake imputes to them righteousness, He declares them righteous by His obedience to death Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So when Christ submitted to Johns Baptism, it was in obedience to a Law righteousness needed to be fulfilled to finish His covenant work !

 

[CoreyD]

Correct. . .it symolizes what repentance does.

Talking about Jesus' baptism here.
What repentance did Jesus' baptism symbolize?
Please don't just assert, as you are doing. Provide scripture(s) please.

That means to do everything God prescribed for righteousness, even though he was already righteous.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
Perhaps you can be more specific about what you are saying.

It's about completely fulfilling the Law, which he came to do.

What scripture, or law does Jesus' being baptized fulfill?

That's what "born of God" (Jn 1:13) in addition to born of man means.

Being born of God does not mean having eternal life.
Where did you read that in the Bible?
Where did you read that born of man is born again?

"dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph 2:1). . .what kind of death was that, it was not physical. . .therefore, it was spiritual.

Rebirth . . .what kind of birth is that (Jn 3:3-5), it was not physical. . .therefore, it was spiritual, into the spiritual eternal (i.e., God's) life lost by Adam in the fall.

A spiritual birth is not "the spiritual eternal (i.e., God's) life lost by Adam in the fall".
Is an adopted son of God, not born of spirit? Is it not a new birth - a spiritual one?

The scriptures already explained the new birth.
Romans 8:14-17 reads... 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba,[e] Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs - heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

They are children of God, but, more importantly, adopted sons, and heirs - heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. (Romans 8:23; Ephesians 1:5)
That most significant purpose is what allows God's children to be freed from bondage to sin and death Romans 8:21, and enjoy everlasting blessings. Genesis 22:18; Galatians 3:15-18
This is why they are a priesthood. Hebrews 4:14-5:3; Revelation 1:6; Revelation 5:9, 10; 1 Peter 2:4-10

As I said, to discuss this, we need a new thread.
So, if you want to go on with this, you are on your own.
This is off topic to the OP, and I know that this will not end, so I am finished with that.

One is not a child of God (Jn 1:12-13) inheriting God's divine life apart from that spiritual rebirth (Jn 3:3-5) into God's life, which life is spiritual eternal life.

It appears that you subscribe to more wrong NT doctrine than I am willing to further address.

Me?
Back to the topic of free will.