Does man have a freewill ?

[zoidar]

Not if you know how decrees are produced. . .a decree produces effect, the knowledge of which effect is, therefore, foreknown; i.e., before it occurs.

I'm not sure I fully follow. It sounds like from your view God didn't know His own decree from eternity, which again points to God learning.

 

[Jerry N.]

I'm not sure I fully follow. It sounds like from your view God didn't know His own decree from eternity, which again points to God learning.

This verse always bothered me: 1Samual 15:35: And Samuel did not see Saul again until the day of his death, but Samuel grieved over Saul. And the Lord regretted that he had made Saul king over Israel. Can somebody explain it?

 

[Clare73]

I understand, but I thought that the “decree” idea in this thread would add some nuance to Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Maybe it does, but I missed the point. Theologically, I wouldn’t back either side. Practically, I think Arminianism is more functional. Scriptural arguments have been around for a long time, and I think it is a paradox. Like the Catholics say, “It is a mystery of faith.” Thank you for your reply. If you have more to add, I would be interested.

Well, of course, neither Calvin nor Arminius are authors of Scripture, so they are not the parameters for its understanding.

Scripture reveals all of creation and its outcomes are ordained by God to make known, for the sake of the elect, both his wrath and his mercy.

 

[Clare73]

I'm not sure I fully follow. It sounds like from your view God didn't know His own decree from eternity, which again points to God learning.

Your thinking of eternity (without beginning and without end) in terms of time. There is no time in eternity.

 

[Brightfame52]

Isaiah 55: 8-9:

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Okay have a good day

 

[Spiritual Jew]

My brother now you are goading me.

No, I'm not.

The only mistake I made, and confessed to, was miss posting the verse numbers. You are implying that I constantly make mistakes.

No, I'm not.

That is far from the truth. I tried to use levity that you are now attempting to use against me. The Bible teaches that there is only one that is perfect which makes you just as imperfect and prong to error as any human being. I’m sure you have passed brain gas just as everyone else. I forgive you. I hold no ill will for you.

ETA: I’m not offended just baffled by your insensitive comments.

You called yourself old, so I can't help but wonder if maybe you make that same type of mistake often. I'm not saying you do, I just wonder if maybe you do. I spent a good amount of time showing you how I understand Romans 9:22-24 and that wasn't even the text you meant to reference. I just don't want to waste time like that again. You don't have to take so much offense. And I said I may change my mind. So, just relax and don't be so sensitive.

 

[zoidar]

Your thinking of eternity (without beginning and without end) in terms of time. There is no time in eternity.

I believe your view still implies change, since it introduces sequence. Even if it's not in time God in the first stage does not know and in the second stage He does. So logically God is learning which contradicts the notion of God's unchangable nature.

 

[Clare73]

I believe your view still implies change, since it introduces sequence. Even if it's not in time God in the first stage does not know and in the second stage He does. So logically God is learning which contradicts the notion of God's unchangable nature.

God knows what is going to happen (prognosis) in time before it happens in timebecause he has decreed that/when it shall happen in time.

 

[Hentenza]

No, I'm not.


No, I'm not.


You called yourself old, so I can't help but wonder if maybe you make that same type of mistake often. I'm not saying you do, I just wonder if maybe you do. I spent a good amount of time showing you how I understand Romans 9:22-24 and that wasn't even the text you meant to reference. I just don't want to waste time like that again. You don't have to take so much offense. And I said I may change my mind. So, just relax and don't be so sensitive.

Move on brother. Maybe looking up and studying verses 22-24 did you some good or maybe not. You be the judge but don’t be annoyed by studying the word of God.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Move on brother. Maybe looking up and studying verses 22-24 did you some good or maybe not. You be the judge but don’t be annoyed by studying the word of God.

You're telling me to move on after I already told you that I was moving on from you. Why didn't you just accept it in the first place?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

This verse always bothered me: 1Samual 15:35: And Samuel did not see Saul again until the day of his death, but Samuel grieved over Saul. And the Lord regretted that he had made Saul king over Israel. Can somebody explain it?

It's very easy to explain. God gave man free will and it saddens Him when someone makes bad choices that go against His desires like Saul did.

You can see the same thing here:

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

God knows what is going to happen (prognosis) in time before it happens in timebecause he has decreed that/when it shall happen in time.

So, you think God decrees every rape and murder and every other sin that occurs?

 

[Hentenza]

This verse always bothered me: 1Samual 15:35: And Samuel did not see Saul again until the day of his death, but Samuel grieved over Saul. And the Lord regretted that he had made Saul king over Israel. Can somebody explain it?

God doesn’t “regret” making Saul king in the same sense as we do. The bible teaches us God is omniscient so He knows all. I’ve always though of these kind of words like regret or repent when applied to God to be an anthropomorphism to helps up better understand the sorrow that He has for Saul. Below is what the word means to give you some context.

נָחַם nâcham, naw-kham'; a primitive root; properly, to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly; by implication, to be sorry, i.e. (in a favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to avenge (oneself):—comfort (self), ease (one's self), repent(-er,-ing, self).
The KJV translates Strong's H5162 in the following manner: comfort (57x), repent (41x), comforter (9x), ease (1x).

 

[Jerry N.]

It's very easy to explain. God gave man free will and it saddens Him when someone makes bad choices that go against His desires like Saul did.

You can see the same thing here:

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

Thanks, that is pretty much what I thought, and it indicates the limitations of language.

 

[Jerry N.]

God doesn’t “regret” making Saul king in the same sense as we do. The bible teaches us God is omniscient so He knows all. I’ve always though of these kind of words like regret or repent when applied to God to be an anthropomorphism to helps up better understand the sorrow that He has for Saul. Below is what the word means to give you some context.

נָחַם nâcham, naw-kham'; a primitive root; properly, to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly; by implication, to be sorry, i.e. (in a favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to avenge (oneself):—comfort (self), ease (one's self), repent(-er,-ing, self).
The KJV translates Strong's H5162 in the following manner: comfort (57x), repent (41x), comforter (9x), ease (1x).

Thanks. That is helpful and well thought out.

 

[zoidar]

God knows what is going to happen (prognosis) in time before it happens in timebecause he has decreed that/when it shall happen in time.

I don't know what more to say than I have already said.

 

[CoreyD]

So, you think God decrees every rape and murder and every other sin that occurs?

For the last two pages I read, I see people saying things about God, that is nowhere in scripture, and none of the statements have even one scripture quoted, or referenced, to say, 'well this is what the scriptures tell us.'
The scriptures show quite clearly that God exercises his foreknowledge when he wishes, which does allow him to prophecy future events. Genesis 18:20, 21; Genesis 22:11, 12

Why does God search the heart of men, if he already knows what each one is, and will be? Except it be that he may get to know. Psalm 14:2; Jeremiah 17:10
Some people think this limits God, but far from it, God is not limited any more than the fact that he cannot lie Hebrews 6:18, limits him.
God's attributes - his justice; his love; his wisdom; all work together with his almightiness, which makes God what he is, and what he bounds himself to.

In other words God is beyond limits. He is not bound by darkness; debased or sinful practices, like lying, injustice, ignorance and stupidity, etc.
Hence, because of God's justice, man is allowed free will, to exercise his freedom of his will and desires, without God's interference, or invasion. Deuteronomy 30:19

We are thankful that God is "light". He is holy - pure, to the highest level; righteous in all his ways... Psalm 145:17; Deuteronomy 32:4
Darkness - nor the 'works of darkness', cannot limit God. He far exceeds anything that is opposed to his nature. 1 John 1:5; 1 John 4:8; Psalm 99:9
This is what the scriptures tell us about God.

No scripture in the Bible says God exists in the future. It does however say God is everlasting.
Psalm 90:2

Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

(Psalm 93:2, Habakkuk 1:12)

 

[CoreyD]

I’ve been confused with this decree idea from the start. God spoke, and the world was made. One could say that the world was predestined to exist. God did not decree that Adam and Eve would sin. He knew they would, but He gave them free will to choose for themselves. I’m missing some connection here.

None of us would like a total stranger... or any person for that matter, to say about us... See [Jerry]... he doesn't just tuck his daughters in at night... He sexually assaults them.
We would be appalled... even angry.... Not to mention, we would feel like persons just sullied our reputation publicly.

What about God... does he feel the same way?
Of course he does. His reputation is very important to him. Numbers 14:15, 16; Joshua 6:27; Joshua 9:9
He feel just as hurt when people say things about him, which he has not declared, and which stain his reputation, owing to the fact they are not true.

Thanks for not proposing that God decreed that Adam and Eve sin, but what scriptural basis do you have for saying God knew Adam would sin?

 

[CoreyD]

I understand that you are looking for truth, and it is a wonderful thing. The conflict among theologians between free will and predestination has been going on for a few hundred years. It hasn’t been resolved, and a great deal of division has taken place in the church because of it. The core problem is not in the scriptures but in understanding the mind of God. Scriptures help us in a small way, but the practicality of living a Christian life is of more importance for us as we read the Bible. You probably know about the discussions on how many angels can dance on a pin. It is not as silly as it sounds, because they were trying to determine if angels took up space and had mass. We know a lot about angels from the Bible, but we don’t have enough information to solve the problem. It is much the same with the freewill and predestination problem. We know a lot from the Bible, but definitive information is lacking. The number of concepts in the Bible that we can not have sure answers for is high; however, the way of salvation and living a Christian life are much more clear.

Actually, that is the problem right there - "in understanding the mind of God. Scriptures help us in a small way, but the practicality of living a Christian life is of more importance for us as we read the Bible."
So many people have the "mind of God", and there are like thousands of conflicting ideas.

Because people do not stick to the scriptures, but do the very thing the scriptures condemn "learn not to go beyond the things which are written" 1 Corinthians 4:6, they become the authority on what the scriptures say, rather than the scriptures being the authority on what God says... We then have the problem of people saying things without even consulting the scriptures, or even using one scripture to support what they.

When we use the Bible, we are allowing the scriptures to be "profitable for teaching [us], for reproof, for correction [us], for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16, 17
That seldom happens in communities where the large majority identify as Christian... which is quite a sad state of affairs, isn't it.

Then making things worst, we have billions of people believing they are living what the Bible says, when in reality, they are not. Hence why Matthew 7:21-21 is true.

 

[Clare73]

So, you think God decrees every rape and murder and every other sin that occurs?

God ordained everything in creation for his own purposes, including the cruel torture and murder of his own Son.