Does man have a freewill ?

[Spiritual Jew]

The Corinthians may have been carnal in some things, but they were spiritual, they had the Spirit indwelling them, so they were not in the flesh. Paul said one isnt in the flesh but in the Spirit if the Spirit dwells in you, you belong to Christ Rom 8:9

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The Corinthians had the Spirit dwelling in them 1 Cor 6:19

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

So sorry you cant classify them with them in Rom 8:7-8 they are in the flesh Period

You completely ignored the point, as you almost always do. The point is that they were acting carnally just like an unbeliever does, but unlike unbelievers, they did believe in Christ and had the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. But, they were not walking in the Spirit. Them being carnal did not prevent them from believing in Christ, but that is the argument that you try to make. Being carnal means you can't understand the deeper things of God and aren't ready for the solid food, but does not mean you can't understand simple things like the gospel and doesn't mean you are not able to put your faith in Christ.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Man by nature is dead in sin, alienated from the life of God. He cant do a thing Spiritual unto God, like repent and believe, he dead

Scripture never teaches this. If this was true, then why does man have no excuse to "hold the truth in unrighteousness" and to not glorify God as God and be thankful to Him? If you want to be taken seriously, then you will answer this question. You need to stop avoiding challenges to your doctrine and face them head on or else I can only conclude that you just believe what you want to believe and don't care if your doctrine can hold up to scrutiny.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

According to Paul, literally no one has any excuse to "hold the truth in unrighteousness" and no excuse to not only not know there is a God, but to not glorify Him as God and be thankful to Him. The wrath of God is on anyone who does not acknowledge the truth that He has made plain to everyone by what He has made. God doesn't get angry for no reason. He gets angry when people disobey Him repeatedly and refuse to accept the truth.

The way you think of what it means to be dead in sins, which you relate to man not being able to do anything God wants him to do, like repent and believe, it does not seem possible that someone in such a state could possibly do anything but "hold the truth in unrighteousness" and could not possibly glorify God as God and be thankful to Him. And, yet, no one has any excuse for holding the truth in unrighteousness and not glorifying God as God and being thankful to Him. How do you reconcile this with your understanding of what it means to be dead in sins?

I will point out something once again that you continue to ignore. While unbelievers are said to be dead in sins, Jesus also described them as being spiritually sick and in need of the physician (Him). That is what Jesus said in Mark 3:26-27 (also recorded in a couple other places). Jesus equated being sick and in need of the physician with sinners needing to repent and put their trust in Him. Sick people are capable of acknowledging that they cannot heal themselves and need the physician to heal them. Your understanding that unsaved people are unable to make decisions about whether or not to repent and believe contradict passages like Romans 1:18-21 and Mark 3:26-27 which clearly say otherwise.

 

[Gr8Grace]

To deny one and only except the other seems to go against Scripture. It is fun to speculate, but surety is probably not a good idea.

Surety is the only good idea. He put them in His word to mankind......not to speculate. But for truth.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Because I’m getting old and meant to cite verses 28-30. lol

You laugh, but I spent a good amount of time addressing Romans 9:22-24 instead because of your mistake. I think I'm not interested in discussing this with you any further. Thanks, anyway.

 

[Brightfame52]

You completely ignored the point, as you almost always do. The point is that they were acting carnally just like an unbeliever does, but unlike unbelievers, they did believe in Christ and had the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. But, they were not walking in the Spirit. Them being carnal did not prevent them from believing in Christ, but that is the argument that you try to make. Being carnal means you can't understand the deeper things of God and aren't ready for the solid food, but does not mean you can't understand simple things like the gospel and doesn't mean you are not able to put your faith in Christ.

You ignored my point. The natural man hasnt the Spirit of God, so he is in the flesh period. A believer regenerated has the Spirit, thats the Spiritual advantage over the natural unregenerate person.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Spiritual Jew

Scripture never teaches this.

Yes it does, its denied by most religionist however.

 

[Hentenza]

You laugh, but I spent a good amount of time addressing Romans 9:22-24 instead because of your mistake. I think I'm not interested in discussing this with you any further. Thanks, anyway.

“Be kind to one another, compassionate, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4‬:‭32‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Ephesians 4:32 Be kind to one another, compassionate, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

Be kind to one another, compassionate, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

bible.com

Forgiving each other is a biblical mandate. I didn’t err on purpose to annoy you. God bless.

 

[zoidar]

God decreed the incarnation of his Son.

God knows of the birth of Jesus of Nazareth before (foreknowledge) it occurs because he has decreed it.

And poor Peter, I guess he got it wrong in 1 Pe 1:2.

Sure God decreed the birth and incarnation of His Son, but I still don't see where you get that idea God foreknew because He decreed it. You’re assuming a causal order where decree produces knowledge. But Scripture never says that.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You ignored my point. The natural man hasnt the Spirit of God, so he is in the flesh period. A believer regenerated has the Spirit, thats the Spiritual advantage over the natural unregenerate person.

I don't deny that point at all. But, despite having the Spirit in them, Paul said those "babes in Christ" in 1 Corinthians 3:1 were "yet carnal". This shows that someone can be carnal and not have understanding of the deeper things and the solid food, as Paul talked about, but can still believe in Christ. You are trying to say that a person cannot put their faith in Christ while they are thinking carnally, but those babes in Christ show otherwise. A carnal mind does not prevent someone from recognizing their sin and need of a Savior. It prevents someone from behaving like a mature Christian.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

“Be kind to one another, compassionate, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4‬:‭32‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Ephesians 4:32 Be kind to one another, compassionate, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

Be kind to one another, compassionate, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

bible.com

Forgiving each other is a biblical mandate. I didn’t err on purpose to annoy you. God bless.

Where did I say I didn't forgive you? I didn't. I just don't feel like spending a lot of time addressing things that you bring up by mistake. You say you're old, so I tend to think maybe you do that often. I could be wrong, but, for now, I just don't have interest in continuing the discussion. I could always change my mind. I'm not intending to offend you here.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

@Spiritual Jew



Yes it does, its denied by most religionist however.

How about you actually address what I said in post 362? Or do you not want to be taken seriously? It seems that you only want to put in the absolute minimal effort to defend your doctrine. But, if you want to be taken seriously, then address what I said in post 362.

 

[Hentenza]

Where did I say I didn't forgive you? I didn't. I just don't feel like spending a lot of time addressing things that you bring up by mistake. You say you're old, so I tend to think maybe you do that often. I could be wrong, but, for now, I just don't have interest in continuing the discussion. I could always change my mind. I'm not intending to offend you here.

My brother now you are goading me. The only mistake I made, and confessed to, was miss posting the verse numbers. You are implying that I constantly make mistakes. That is far from the truth. I tried to use levity that you are now attempting to use against me. The Bible teaches that there is only one that is perfect which makes you just as imperfect and prong to error as any human being. I’m sure you have passed brain gas just as everyone else. I forgive you. I hold no ill will for you.

ETA: I’m not offended just baffled by your insensitive comments.

 

[Jerry N.]

Just understand, God has foreknowledge, maybe you need to study it to understand what it means biblically, dont confuse it with Gods omniscience, not the same

It is obvious that God’s omniscience is not the same as God’s foreknowledge. Think of it this way. We live in one moment of time, so knowing what hasn’t happened yet in the future is human foreknowledge. God exists in all time, past, present, and future, simultaneously. So God’s foreknowledge is higher and greater than man’s foreknowledge in it’s very essence not just its function.

 

[Jerry N.]

Surety is the only good idea. He put them in His word to mankind......not to speculate. But for truth.

I understand that you are looking for truth, and it is a wonderful thing. The conflict among theologians between free will and predestination has been going on for a few hundred years. It hasn’t been resolved, and a great deal of division has taken place in the church because of it. The core problem is not in the scriptures but in understanding the mind of God. Scriptures help us in a small way, but the practicality of living a Christian life is of more importance for us as we read the Bible. You probably know about the discussions on how many angels can dance on a pin. It is not as silly as it sounds, because they were trying to determine if angels took up space and had mass. We know a lot about angels from the Bible, but we don’t have enough information to solve the problem. It is much the same with the freewill and predestination problem. We know a lot from the Bible, but definitive information is lacking. The number of concepts in the Bible that we can not have sure answers for is high; however, the way of salvation and living a Christian life are much more clear.

 

[Brightfame52]

It is obvious that God’s omniscience is not the same as God’s foreknowledge. Think of it this way. We live in one moment of time, so knowing what hasn’t happened yet in the future is human foreknowledge. God exists in all time, past, present, and future, simultaneously. So God’s foreknowledge is higher and greater than man’s foreknowledge in it’s very essence not just its function.

To be honest I dont think you understand Gods foreknowledge at all. Have a good day

 

[Jerry N.]

To be honest I dont think you understand Gods foreknowledge at all. Have a good day

Isaiah 55: 8-9:

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[Clare73]

Sure God decreed the birth and incarnation of His Son, but I still don't see where you get that idea God foreknew because He decreed it. You’re assuming a causal order where decree produces knowledge. But Scripture never says that.

Not if you know how decrees are produced. . .a decree produces effect, the knowledge of which effect is, therefore, foreknown; i.e., before it occurs.

 

[Jerry N.]

Not if you know how decrees are produced. . .a decree produces effect, the knowledge of which effect is, therefore, foreknown; i.e., before it occurs.

I’ve been confused with this decree idea from the start. God spoke, and the world was made. One could say that the world was predestined to exist. God did not decree that Adam and Eve would sin. He knew they would, but He gave them free will to choose for themselves. I’m missing some connection here.

 

[Clare73]

I’ve been confused with this decree idea from the start. God spoke, and the world was made. One could say that the world was predestined to exist. God did not decree that Adam and Eve would sin. He knew they would, but He gave them free will to choose for themselves. I’m missing some connection here.

Well, actually, for the sake of the elect, all of creation and its outcomes are ordained by God to make known both his wrath and his mercy (Ro 9:22-23).

 

[Jerry N.]

Well, actually, for the sake of the elect, all of creation and its outcomes are ordained by God to make known both his wrath and his mercy (Ro 9:22-23).

I understand, but I thought that the “decree” idea in this thread would add some nuance to Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Maybe it does, but I missed the point. Theologically, I wouldn’t back either side. Practically, I think Arminianism is more functional. Scriptural arguments have been around for a long time, and I think it is a paradox. Like the Catholics say, “It is a mystery of faith.” Thank you for your reply. If you have more to add, I would be interested.