Does man have a freewill ?

[Spiritual Jew]

Man has a will, but its not free from Gods Sovereignty, since Gods will always is done by Him, that means every other will is subservient to His. Now man is a slave to his sin nature, that doesnt mean he cant make good moral choices, naturally. He can go to church, be a good father, husband, and so forth. He can be most moral and honest person can be. Don't smoke, drink or run the ladies. He can make wise and good decisions. But what he cant do and doesnt do, is good spiritually. Spiritually he is a slave to sin and doesnt do good, nothing that pleases God and would cause God to accept him in His favor.

Now here is testimony of scripture:

Ps 14:1,3

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Ps 53:1,3

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.


Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

You are ignoring the part of those verses which show that they are talking about those who say there is no God. Do all unbelievers say there is no God? No. Believers obviously don't say that. So, that is not talking about literally all people there. It's specifically talking about those who say there is no God. No one can do anything good apart from God.

Rom 3:12

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

This is referring to spiritual good, none by nature does good !

Why is that ? Because by nature we are dead to God, and a slave to sin ! 2

No, by nature we are spiritually sick. Being a slave to sin means that everyone sins (Romans 3:23), but does not mean that someone is unable to repent and acknowledge that only Jesus can save them.

Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? 17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Being dead in sins is not a case of being dead to God or a case of being unable to repent and believe in Christ. Being dead in sins means someone is spiritually separated from God. But, there is also a sense in which sinners are spiritually sick, which Calvinists ignore. If you are sick, that does not mean you are completely incapable of acknowledging that you're sick and that you need a physician to heal you. Jesus called those who were spiritually sick to repentance and never indicated that they were not able to repent while in their spiritually sick state. He did not call the righteous who have been regenerated to repentance he called unregenerate sinners to repentance and to acknowledge their need of Him, the Great Physician.

 

[Rose_bud]

Does man have a freewill ?

I'm not asking does man have a will, sure he does. God created man with a will, and man has a responsible and accountable will that God gave him at creation. However the question remains, does man have a freewill ?

Man though he has a will, his will isn't free from Gods Sovereign Will and Purpose. Mans will is always subservient to Gods Sovereign Purpose !

I'm going to share some scripture which without doubt, indicate that mans will is subservient to Gods Will of Purpose.

Dan 4:34-35

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

The passage in Daniel 4 does not negate that their is no free will. This chapter shares how Nebechadnezzar did not respond as he should have, when given the counsel by Daniel, the result the consequences of the dream which served as a warning.

After the dream is interpreted. Daniel provides this information.

Therefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable to you: break off your sins by practicing righteousness, and your iniquities by showing mercy to the oppressed, that there may perhaps be a lengthening of your prosperity.” Daniel 4:27

It was Nebechadnezzars pride that led to his demise. He exalted himself as if he had accomplished his kingdom and that God did not have a hand in it. God has a hand in the affairs of men. But He does not remotely control his subjects as robots from heaven.

 

[Brightfame52]

Calling it a rabbit trail is just a lame excuse for not answering, because you couldn’t.

More of the same rabbit trail

 

[Brightfame52]

@Spiritual Jew

You think someone is held accountable for doing something that he couldn't help but doing?

Yeah, he didnt know he was predestined to do it, yet he did the evil willingly. Like pharoah, he didnt know God hardened his heart not to obey his command, yet he did it willingly. Scripture even said he hardened his own heart, but that was God hardening his heart, so He could justly destroy

 

[Brightfame52]

You have done NOTHING to prove that.


Why are all people responsible to follow God's moral law with no excuse for not doing so, but at the same time most people supposedly are not able to acknowledge their sins and put their faith in Christ? That makes no sense at all.

All men are accountable to Gods law and not one of us can keep it, if you have one lustful thought in your heart, you guilty of breaking the Law of God, you must keep it pure and perfect from the womb to the grave or you going to hell, and God designed it like that

 

[Clare73]

This is 100% false and you have no scripture to back this up.

Study Jn 3:3-8.

You are badly misinterpreting John 3. Nowhere did Jesus say that man is not responsible to repent and believe before being regenerated.

False hermeneutic. . .

By that rule, also nowhere did Jesus say that a man is responsible to repent and believe before being regenerated.
Nor did he say, "I am God."

However, Jesus did say that no one can even see the kingdom of God, much less believe in it, unless he is regenerated (Jn 3:3-5) by the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:6-8).

Much divine revelations is presented in Scripture apart from "Jesus said."

Tell me, do you believe that someone is born again when they receive the Holy Spirit?

No. . ."receiving the Holy Spirit," as reported in the NT, is not about the new birth, it is about a special filling after the sovereign (Jn 3:6-8) new birth by the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5).

If so, then explain why the disciples received the Holy Spirit AFTER having previously repented of their sins and putting their faith in Christ? They did not receive the Holy Spirit until after Christ's resurrection (John 20:28) and they certainly had repented and believed in Christ before they received the Holy Spirit. How do you reconcile that with your claim that one must be regenerated first before repenting and believing?

That was a special filling of the born again with the Holy Spirit for their mission, it was not rebirth.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Spiritual Jew

No, by nature we are spiritually sick.

Which is a symptom of being dead in sin, alienated from the life of God, the disease is not curable. The human heart in its best condition is described Jer 17:9

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

That word desperately is a word that means:
anash:

desperately wicked, incurable, sick, woeful
A primitive root; to be frail, feeble, or (figuratively) melancholy -- desperate(-ly wicked), incurable, sick, woeful. This includes man at his religiously best, moral best

Thats why God when He saves a person He gives them a new heart Ezk 36 26

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Now if you think this is not true, you prove the verse true because the human heart is deceived and deceitful above all things.

 

[Clare73]

You think someone is held accountable for doing something that he couldn't help but doing? How does that make any sense?

Bible 101:

"My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the Lord.
"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts."
(Isa 55:8-9)

Your understanding of God is terribly flawed.

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black.

God never punishes anyone for doing something that he or she couldn't help but doing. That is complete nonsense.

Bible 101:

"My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the Lord.
"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts."
(Isa 55:8-9)

Look at this...
Matthew 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.
Why did Jesus leave the house of the Jews (their temple) to be spiritually desolate? Because of them doing something they couldn't help doing?

No. They didn't reject Him (not all did, but most did) because they could not accept Him, they rejected Him because they willingly chose not to. Jesus clearly implied here that He expected them to accept Him and told them what He would have done for them had they not rejected Him. The reason they rejected Him was not because they could not do so, but because they "were not willing". That puts the responsibility completely on them rather than giving them an excuse of "total depravity" or "total inability" as Calvinism does.

Unless total depravity or total inability was the very reason "they were not willing."

See post #15 for you real issue here.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Rose_bud

The passage in Daniel 4 does not negate that their is no free will.

You missing the point, Gods will is supreme over the human will and it is ruled by His will, Eph 1:11


11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things[the human will included] after the counsel of his own will:

So like when you exercise your will freely to do something, unbeknown to you, its/you are doing what Gods will wanted to be done by you, His will was at work through your freewill choice to do something

 

[fhansen]

There is no faith apart from the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) will of the Holy Spirit in rebirth (Jn 3:3-5).

One has no more to do with their spiritual rebirth (Jn 3:3-5) than they do with their natural birth.

Rebirth is 100% an act of the Holy Spirit, based on his sovereign choice to do so (Jn 3:6-8), and based on nothing else.

Nonsense. As Augustine said, He created us without our consent but won't save us without it. He can do it however He wants and the gospel, the whole Bible for that matter, would be silliness otherwise, without man's will involved.

He died for the sins of the whole world (1John 2:2), He wants none to perish (2 Pet 3:9), and there's no excuse for unbelief (Rom 1:18:20).

 

[Clare73]

Nonsense. As Augustine said, He created us without our consent but won't save us without it.

Nonsense. Augustine didn't write:

Jn 6:65 - No one can come to me unless the Father enables him.

Jn 6:37 - All whom the Father gives me will come to me.

You do the math. . .

 

[fhansen]

Augustine didn't write :

Jn 6:65 - No one can come to me unless the Father enables him.

Jn 6:37 - All whom the Father gives me will come to me.

You do the math. . .

The math includes more constants than you allow for, and you leave out or ignore those that conflict with your viewpoint.

 

[fhansen]

More of the same rabbit trail

More denial, more acedia.

 

[Clare73]

The math includes more constants than you allow for, and you leave out or ignore those that conflict with your viewpoint.

Assertion without Biblical demonstration (as is given in post #112) is without Biblical merit. . .it's no more than one's personal view.

 

[Rose_bud]

@Rose_bud



You missing the point, Gods will is supreme over the human will and it is ruled by His will, Eph 1:11


11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things[the human will included] after the counsel of his own will:

So like when you exercise your will freely to do something, unbeknown to you, its/you are doing what Gods will wanted to be done by you, His will was at work through your freewill choice to do something

No I think you are missing the point of the passage you cited in Daniel. The author is highlighting the level of Nebechadnezzars pride. God is giving him the opportunity to acknowledge his foolishness.

It's evident in the passage. The irony is that Nebechadnezzars by his own admission states that Daniels God has given him the ability to interpret the dream. The irony is that the author lets us know that Daniel was the only one who could. All others failed. (ie Daniels God is the most powerful). Yet given all this information, the king still continued in his pride. God gives us enough to respond to who He is. No one has an excuse. It's the point of Romans.

Even Nebechadnezzar son had knowledge of God yet refused it. (His father became even a sign to him, that pointed to God). Daniel 5:22

 

[Clare73]

No I think you are missing the point of the passage you cited in Daniel. The author is highlighting the level of Nebechadnezzars pride. God is giving him the opportunity to acknowledge his foolishness.

It's evident in the passage. The irony is that Nebechadnezzars by his own admission states that Daniels God has given him the ability to interpret the dream. The irony is that the author lets us know that Daniel was the only one who could. All others failed. (ie Daniels God is the most powerful). Yet given all this information, the king still continued in his pride. God gives us enough to respond to who He is.

Keeping in mind that we are (spiritually) dead in trespasses and sin (Eph 2:1).
Spiritually dead men cannot make spiritual responses. . .they must be born again of the Holy Spirit to even be able to see anything spiritual (Jn 3:3-5).

"The man without the Spirit (by the new birth) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them." (1 Co 2:14)

There is no spiritual sight nor understanding without the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) new birth of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5).

Even Nebechadnezzar son had knowledge of God yet refused it. (That is that his father became even a sign to him, that pointed to God). Daniel 5:22. No one has an excuse. It's the point of Romans.

 

[Rose_bud]

Keeping in mind that we are (spiritually) dead in trespasses and sin (Eph 2:1).
Spiritually dead men cannot make spiritual responses. . .they must be born again of the Holy Spirit to even be able to see anything spiritual (Jn 3:3-5).

"The man without the Spirit (by the new birth) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them." (1 Co 2:14)

There is no spiritual sight nor understanding without the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) new birth of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5).

Please help me understand. Are you arguing that God gives a sign that He is... But then judges humanity because they cannot respond to it because He doesnt regenerate them?

God always initiates, we respond or fail to respond.I'd venture to say all of creation is Him initiating. Psalms 19:1-4.

God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble...
He oposes those who refuse what He has revealed of Himself. All creation has been given an opportunity to respond to Him by what He has revealed, be it general or special revelation.

 

[Brightfame52]

More denial, more acedia.

More rabbit trail

 

[Brightfame52]

@Rose_bud

No I think you are missing the point of the passage you cited in Daniel.

No Im sure you missing the point of what that scripture says that I found in Daniel, it gives information about God and His Will

 

[fhansen]

Assertion without Biblical demonstration (as is given in post #112) is without Biblical merit. . .it's no more than one's personal view.

Geez-the constants I'm referring to as being ignored by you was Scripture already listed.