Does Jesus NOT know the day of his future second coming????

[Erik Nelson]

@ewq1938 -- please remember, you have to bear in mind, that the actual inspired language was 1st century Greek (not 21st century modern English). Please acknowledge, yes?

John 1:1, following the Greek LXX OT convention, refers to the Person of The Father as "the God" (ton Theon), and the Person of the [Father's] Word as "Godly" (Theos):

Revelation 21:7 likewise refers to the incarnate Word [of the Father] Jesus Christ as "Theos" (Godly / Godlike / God by nature & essence)...but not by the term "ton Theos" (the God) reserved only for The Father:

ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ ΙΩΑΝΝΟΥ 21 Apostolic Bible Polyglot​

Only The Father = "ton Theon" (the God)

I renew my challenge to the entire CF community -- exactly precisely zero times in the Greek OT or NT will anyone ever find The Father referred to as "Theos", or His Word or His Spirit referred to as "ton Theon".

If that is not true, post the screen capture from the Apostolic Bible Polyglot...

Only The Father = "ton Theon" (the God)

So far, I've posted screen captures from two verses. I'm up 2-0.

But I don't have special access to the ABP, and anyone anywhere is welcome to investigate and try to find counter-examples...

for which I'm (still) waiting...

Meanwhile, in case anyone is counting...

"ton Theon" (tau omicron nu Theta epsilon omicron nu) and "Theos" (Theta epsilon omicron sigma) differ by more Greek letters (4) than they have shared in common (3)...

different phrases / words / letters signify different things

please acknowledge? Similar doesn't mean exactly precisely the same, yes?

 

[DennisTate]

How about we (try to) speak the original inspired language, 1st century AD Greek?

I challenge you (two pairs of eyes are better than one), throughout the whole entire Greek LXX OT & NT, the original Greek is 100.000% consistent:

• the Father = ton Theon (the God)
• Word / Spirit = Theos (Godly, Godlike, God-by-nature-and-essence-but-not-by-Person)

If you find an exception, anywhere in the Greek OT-NT, please point it out to me.

Saint Irenaeus clarified this. "The Father" is the One True God, His Word & His Spirit are His "two hands" with which he interacts with creation.

• "His hands" are fully Divine / Godly / Godlike...
• Transcendent / beyond creation / eternal / beyond space-and-time...

But only the Father is utterly completely totally wholly entirely 100% uncaused, being The First Prime Cause of philosophy (Kalam)

The Father generates His Word ("begetting") and His Spirit ("spiration")

It's like you and your hands vs. everything you make with your hands. No one can compare either you or your hands to any of the things you make. You and your hands are a completely separate category / class / league. You, however, are ultimately in charge of everything.

Even the Angels are created beings, fashioned within our creation space-time fabric through the action of God's Word (and maybe perhaps animated by God's Spirit, or something like that). Not even the Angels can be compared to any member of the Godhead, all three Persons of which are fully Divine / Godly / Godlike by nature. No other entity is "Divine", "Godly / Godlike" by nature. And, also, only The Father is the ultimate source of everything, the root of even the rest of the Godhead:

"One God, [the] Father, uncreated, invisible, Creator of all, above whom there is no other, after whom there is no other God. And as God is verbal, therefore, He made created things by the [His] Word…"

Saint Irenaeus, Proof of the Apostolic Preaching 5​

I am listening to an exceptional Christian near death experience right now whose book I have got to get because he talks about how the Word of God verifies his experience rather than the other way around.

Dead 2 Hours, visits Heaven! - Dean Braxton

698,919 views
•Oct 10, 2014

 

[timothyu]

near death experience

Quite a career opportunity

 

[Ken Rank]

I think he humbled himself, emptied himself "for the suffering of death" as Paul wrote but also to be our model. He was "God manifested in the flesh" but also became like man for the above reason and to show us how to walk and act. So, he placed all weight on the Father as we are to place all weight on the Father. In this case, He didn't lie, He simply directed us to where we need to look.

 

[timothyu]

Even as King of the Kingdom, He will still be sub-subservient as He was in earth to the Father who will dwell there also. He doesn't own the company but He runs it. Remember, this is only about humans. God certainly did not limit His vastness to us.

 

[nolidad]

The dead rise first...it is the resurrection. Yeshua only comes back once. Behold, He [Yeshua] is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him.
Shabbat Shalom

I agree Jesus comes back once to earth. But if you notice in Thessalonians Jesus does not return to earth but only descends to either the second or first heaven And this is only for the purpose of catching up only those in Christ- so it is just church age saints not the OT saints!

 

[timothyu]

So then is the thousand year reign done over Skype?

 

[nolidad]

No, because that isn't the issue at hand. You called something "Modalism" when it was Trinitarianism. You were wrong about what the other member posted and I suspect you do not correctly understand what Modalism is based on your incorrect labeling. You also seem to not correctly understand what Trinitarianism teaches, that one God is composed of three, and those three being Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That Sir is NOT Modalism.

You also wrongly said, "only the Father is utterly completely totally wholly entirely 100% uncaused"

False...all of the Trinity is "uncaused".

Your Greek explanation is foolishly wrong!

You are using teh same faulty reasoning as the Watchtower!


Theon and Theos are simple greek constructs of Theos! one is Accusative and the other nominative!

from nt.greek.org

he Apparent Difference in Spelling

First of all, the same Greek word is used in both occurrences of the word "God" in John 1:1. This same word is used in many contexts, whether it refers to the Only True God or whether it is referring to a false god - such as a man-made god (1 Cor. 8:5) or Satan as the ‘god of this age’ (2 Cor. 4:4). The apparent differences in spelling between the word ‘God’ in the phrase ‘and the Word was God’ (‘theos’) and in other places, (even in the previous phrase, ‘and the Word was with God’ (‘theon’)) is due to inflection in the Greek language. Each Greek noun normally has 8 or 9 forms (cases & number) in which it can appear. (See my page on ‘Inflection’ and ‘Cases’ on the Web site). In the first instance in John 1:1 it is the object of preposition and thus is in the accusative case. In the phrase in question, it is in the nominative case (indicating the subject or predicate nominative - equal to the subject). But it is the same word for ‘God’, and in both phrases here indicates the One and Only True God. So the apparent difference is spelling is not because ‘theos’ is a different word than ‘theon’, but is a different form of the identical word.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I agree Jesus comes back once to earth. But if you notice in Thessalonians Jesus does not return to earth but only descends to either the second or first heaven And this is only for the purpose of catching up only those in Christ- so it is just church age saints not the OT saints!

Where does it say that?? Acts 1:11 says differently...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Acts 1:11 - "Men of Galilee," they said, "why - Bible Gateway
Bible Gateway passage: Acts 1:11 - New International Version
Acts 1:11 New International Version (NIV). 11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

 

[Der Alte]

@ewq1938 -- please remember, you have to bear in mind, that the actual inspired language was 1st century Greek (not 21st century modern English). Please acknowledge, yes?

John 1:1, following the Greek LXX OT convention, refers to the Person of The Father as "the God" (ton Theon), and the Person of the [Father's] Word as "Godly" (Theos):

View attachment 267144​

Revelation 21:7 likewise refers to the incarnate Word [of the Father] Jesus Christ as "Theos" (Godly / Godlike / God by nature & essence)...but not by the term "ton Theos" (the God) reserved only for The Father:

View attachment 267143

ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ ΙΩΑΝΝΟΥ 21 Apostolic Bible Polyglot​

Only The Father = "ton Theon" (the God)

I renew my challenge to the entire CF community -- exactly precisely zero times in the Greek OT or NT will anyone ever find The Father referred to as "Theos", or His Word or His Spirit referred to as "ton Theon".

If that is not true, post the screen capture from the Apostolic Bible Polyglot...

Only The Father = "ton Theon" (the God)

So far, I've posted screen captures from two verses. I'm up 2-0.

But I don't have special access to the ABP, and anyone anywhere is welcome to investigate and try to find counter-examples...

for which I'm (still) waiting...

Meanwhile, in case anyone is counting...

"ton Theon" (tau omicron nu Theta epsilon omicron nu) and "Theos" (Theta epsilon omicron sigma) differ by more Greek letters (4) than they have shared in common (3)...

different phrases / words / letters signify different things

please acknowledge? Similar doesn't mean exactly precisely the same, yes?

John 20:28
(28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:28 και απεκριθη ο θωμας και ειπεν αυτω ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου

 

[Vicky gould]

Hi, notice what the Lord says “No man knows.” The Lord was fully God but He was also fully man as well and no man knew the day and hour. The glorified Christ I would think knows everything.
Sometimes the Lord’s words are subtle but powerful lessons. He said as long as He was on earth He had power to forgive sin. When lifted up on the cross He did not forgive even the thief He took to heaven. The Lord needed to be fully man when He took our sins upon Him and as such He had to lay His godly rights down which He did willingly.

 

[Erik Nelson]

John 20:28
(28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:28 και απεκριθη ο θωμας και ειπεν αυτω ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου

Great find, thank you very much, there's another example

God's Word incarnate (in Jesus Christ) = "Theos" (Theta epsilon omicron sigma)

not "ton Theon" (tau omicron nu Theta epsilon omicron nu)

 

[Erik Nelson]

The Lord was fully God but He was also fully man as well and no man knew the day and hour. The glorified Christ I would think knows everything.
Sometimes the Lord’s words are subtle but powerful lessons. He said as long as He was on earth He had power to forgive sin. When lifted up on the cross He did not forgive even the thief He took to heaven. The Lord needed to be fully man when He took our sins upon Him and as such He had to lay His godly rights down which He did willingly.

fully God by nature & essence, but not The God The Father in Person

please do acknowledge, "no. man. has. ever. seen. The. Father." (John 1:18)

The Father has never directly Himself entered into creation, but (for whatever Divine reasons) chooses only to interact into creation through His Word & His Spirit ("His two hands")

One God (The Father) + "His two hands" = three persons of Triune Godhead = Trinity

please do acknowledge, "The Son is not The Father"

 

[Deade]

Hi, notice what the Lord says “No man knows.” The Lord was fully God but He was also fully man as well and no man knew the day and hour. The glorified Christ I would think knows everything.
Sometimes the Lord’s words are subtle but powerful lessons. He said as long as He was on earth He had power to forgive sin. When lifted up on the cross He did not forgive even the thief He took to heaven. The Lord needed to be fully man when He took our sins upon Him and as such He had to lay His godly rights down which He did willingly.

Way to go Vicky. I believe He said He did not know while He walked the earth. Now, He is omniscient. That is the only logical conclusion. Kind of the way we are now and will be, according to Paul.

1 Cor.13:12 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

 

[Erik Nelson]

...the apparent difference is spelling is not because ‘theos’ is a different word than ‘theon’, but is a different form of the identical word.

Yes, you are doing a very good job of delving straight back into the original 1st century inspired Greek!

Please observe, in the Greek OT & NT, the Father is always indicated by the phrase "ton Theon" (the God [Him, object-like case])

The other members of the Godhead are indicated by the word "Theos" (God [He, subject-like case])

Different words / phrases denote different things, yes?

"no man has ever seen the Father" (John 1:18), so whenever we do experience Him in action in creation, it is always through His "two hands" (His Word & His Spirit) which embody His activity in creation

The Father is not the Son, nor the Spirit, correct?

Jesus Christ was God the Father's Word incarnate, but not God the Father incarnate, correct?

John 3:16-18 = God the Father sent His Son... He didn't come directly Himself, correct?

Q.E.D. ?

John 3:18 makes it abundantly clear that the Son is the only-begotten (= a mysterious sort of generation in Transcendent Eternity beyond our creation space-and-time) of "the God" (ton Theon) -- look closely, the definite article "the" (G3588) is always present before "God" (G2316) whenever the Father (= "the [one] God") is indicated:

 

[Kaon]

The saying was in context of the Hebrew culture, and the wedding of the Church. The Redeemer's parables and metaphors were mostly in relation to Hebrews and Hebrew culture - especially concerning the Kindgom and salvation.

In the wedding, no one knows when the marriage will actually occur except the Father of the bride: He is the One who brings out the bride (after the party, groom, bridesmaids and groomsmen the have been waiting for any amount of time). Notice the entire party shows up, but must wait (how long, Lord...?)

So, in a real wedding, no one actually knows the "day" ("considering 4pm-7pm could be sundown/the next day), or particular hour the Father would deliver the bride to be joined with the husband.

Likewise, "not even the Groom/The Word of God Himself/Son of Man" will know when the Father the Most High God will deliver the Bride (us, the church body made of humans not buildings) to Him for marriage.


But, like someone alluded to earlier, the Redeemer also says that that day comes like a thief in the night to those who don't watch. So, while we may not know the millisecond, we can know the signs the Father is bringing the bride. Someone may be watching for His arrival, some may listen to His voice. Some may watch the signs He makes in the surroundings.

 

[Erik Nelson]

I think he humbled himself, emptied himself "for the suffering of death" as Paul wrote but also to be our model. He was "God manifested in the flesh" but also became like man for the above reason and to show us how to walk and act. So, he placed all weight on the Father as we are to place all weight on the Father. In this case, He didn't lie, He simply directed us to where we need to look.

God's Word incarnate

not The God The Father incarnate

John 1:18

The Father is not the Son

 

[timothyu]

(us, the church body made of humans not buildings)

Thought it was the new Jerusalem as told in Rev. The church is merely the guests who were gathered after the original invites, Judah, didn't show, for the union of King and bride Kingdom. This is what happens when the religion removed the Kingdom as Jesus' Gospel centuries ago.

 

[Kaon]

Thought it was the new Jerusalem as told in Rev. The church is merely the guests who were gathered after the original invites, Judah, didn't show, for the union of King and bride Kingdom. This is what happens when the religion removed the Kingdom as Jesus' Gospel centuries ago.

Let's get specific so that we don't split hairs, because we may be saying the same thing.

What I meant by the Church are the so called election, or people who can't be moved from the hand of God. This number is extremely large, but finite. These are people mortally alive now, mortally dead, and mortally to come until the first resurrection. I know John saw a multitude that cannot be numbered; however, strictly speaking in math, for example, 10^30 is still finite. We approximate it as "infinite" (multitude that no one can count) more for literary reasons to emphasize the magnitude.

Those people have always been saved, and have always been His people even, and despite their terrible faults. Someone like Judas was NEVER part of the election in the first place - and his actions on this plane of existence show why from the foundations of the earth he was NOT a part of the election. A Dannite, perhaps, set apart for judging the King of nations, but realizing only destruction. Dan does this in general, which is why there is an interesting inheritance to be paid among the tribes.

New Jerusalem is the capital of Israel - the Church body. The physical city is inconsequential to who makes up the residence, however there will also be a real physical New Jerusalem to "represent" the center of Israel - which, at that point would physically be the entire plane of existence (not a strip of land).