Does God want to save the world but can't? Can you prevent Him from carrying out His will?

[Ceallaigh]

The doctrines of grace are not contrary to orthodox Christianity.

I said Calvinism is contrary to Orthodox Christianity (that's the big "O" Orthodoxy that's been around for 2000 years).

And when you say that you merely hope God will get what He wants, you aren't being completely forthright.

You have said, flat out, that you believe God will "get what He wants". And you have defined "what God wants" to be the salvation of every human soul who ever lived. If I am mistaken, please clarify by restating your position.

My assertion is that such a belief is completely heretical, as it is contrary to what the apostles taught and believed, and what has been handed down to us in the New Testament.

What about the fallen angels? Do you hope or believe they will be restored? Or are they eternally damned?

You've made 12 posts, and half of them have been going after me as if we were long time bitter rivals. And all over an innocuous comment I made. If you want to get into a fight with universalists over universalism, you'll need to go over to the Controversial Theology section where it's permitted.

 

[Sam Saved by Grace]

I said Calvinism is contrary to Orthodox Christianity (that's the big "O" Orthodoxy that's been around for 2000 years).



You've made 12 posts, and half of them have been going after me as if we were long time bitter rivals. And all over an innocuous comment I made. If you want to get into a fight with universalists over universalism, you'll need to go over to the Controversial Theology section where it's permitted.

I am not going after you. I have nothing against you, personally. But it is very important for believers to fight for what is true and biblical. If I am indeed wrong about this, then surely you can appreciate the need to defend biblical orthodoxy. Without attacking you or trying to single you out, let me respectfully demonstrate my issue:

2 Peter 3:9 and other verses say God wants none to parish and all to come to redemption. My belief is that in the long run God will get what He wants.

Having thought it over I'll alter my original comment some.
Throughout scripture it says that God wants to save the world.
My belief is that in the long run God will get whatever He wants, in all things, whatever the outcome may be. As to CS Lewis' comment, I grew up with John MacArthur (whom some refer to as hyper-Calvinist) as the family pastor. And what I remember hearing when I was a kid, is that if a bus headed for Heaven drove down to Hell to pick up passengers, no one there would get onboard.

"Whatever the outcome may be" is meaningless when you have already stated the outcome by virtue of the preceding assertions. Surely, anyone can clearly see what is being implied. If I am wrong, then so be it. But I don't think, based on your wording, that a universalist interpretation of the above posts is anything but completely reasonable.

Which is why I again ask: does your hope/belief extend to the devil and the rest of the fallen angels?

 

[BobRyan]

I am not going after you. I have nothing against you, personally. But it is very important for believers to fight for what is true and biblical. If I am indeed wrong about this, then surely you can appreciate the need to defend biblical orthodoxy. Without attacking you or trying to single you out, let me respectfully demonstrate my issue:



"Whatever the outcome may be" is meaningless when you have already stated the outcome by virtue of the preceding assertions. Surely, anyone can clearly see what is being implied. If I am wrong, then so be it. But I don't think, based on your wording, that a universalist interpretation of the above posts is anything but completely reasonable.

Which is why I again ask: does your hope/belief extend to the devil and the rest of the fallen angels?

God is "not willing that any should perish but rather that all should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3.

God also "predicts" that in the end it will turn out that it is the "many" in Matt 7 that are lost and only the "few" that are saved.

Is 5:4 God says He did everything He could to save all the lost - and yet many are still lost.

God "gets what he wants" in the big picture because in Rev 21 we have no sin, no devil, and no wicked. Only the saints are left and all the wicked destroyed.

The big picture result - is a perfect sinless universe in harmony with God - but getting there is messy and does not include God "not so loving the World".

 

[Ceallaigh]

God "gets what he wants" in the big picture because in Rev 21 we have no sin, no devil, and no wicked. Only the saints are left and all the wicked destroyed.

Unlike Calvinists, SDA believe the wicked will be wiped out of existence, rather than tormented forever, because God isn't cruel, correct?

 

[Ceallaigh]

I am not going after you. I have nothing against you, personally. But it is very important for believers to fight for what is true and biblical. If I am indeed wrong about this, then surely you can appreciate the need to defend biblical orthodoxy. Without attacking you or trying to single you out, let me respectfully demonstrate my issue:



"Whatever the outcome may be" is meaningless when you have already stated the outcome by virtue of the preceding assertions. Surely, anyone can clearly see what is being implied. If I am wrong, then so be it. But I don't think, based on your wording, that a universalist interpretation of the above posts is anything but completely reasonable.

Which is why I again ask: does your hope/belief extend to the devil and the rest of the fallen angels?

My hope/belief is that IF God wants the devil and the rest of the fallen angels to eventually be redeemed, then God will get what God wants. God is the one calling the shots on this. So whatever the outcome is, it will be according to God's design.

 

[Sam Saved by Grace]

My hope/belief is that IF God wants the devil and the rest of the fallen angels to eventually be redeemed, then God will get what God wants. God is the one calling the shots on this. So whatever the outcome is, it will be according to God's design.

Spoiler alert: that's not going to happen.

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Rev 20:10

As for your great hope...spoiler alert:

“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels" Matt 25:41

“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” Matt 13:49-50

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death" Rev 21:8

You cannot look at a portrait and magnify one part to the exclusion of everything else, otherwise you will not see the whole picture. Yes, the Bible does say that God desires all to come to repentance - but that has to be understood in context with the rest of the Bible, letting scripture interpret scripture.

As Christians, we should have biblical hopes - not unbiblical hopes.

 

[.Jeremiah.]

What are you referring to when you say Christians conjure up their own ideas, based upon the evil desires within? What subject of debate are you talking about where a Christian refuses to see?

Thanks for the very thought provoking question.

Well, pretty much it all comes from MY experiences, and to a lesser extent what I have witnessed in others.

Within me, (I have been around almost 70 years ) I have seen many changes. I have attended many different churches. Lots of moving.
I would pick up concepts and ideas in these churches, obviously.
From pastors and other individuals.

Then, I would go home to do further study. I noticed (from hindsight only) that I would gravitate to other individuals who gave answers that pleased something inside. I’m talking about apologetics, christian writers, commentators. I’m sure you’re aware that there is a very wide variety of ideas on any religious subject. So, what I mean is we look for “confirmation” to satisfy our desires.

I hope that answers your first question.
Your second one, I must admit, I do not understand.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Thanks for the very thought provoking question.

Well, pretty much it all comes from MY experiences, and to a lesser extent what I have witnessed in others.

Within me, (I have been around almost 70 years ) I have seen many changes. I have attended many different churches. Lots of moving.
I would pick up concepts and ideas in these churches, obviously.
From pastors and other individuals.

Then, I would go home to do further study. I noticed (from hindsight only) that I would gravitate to other individuals who gave answers that pleased something inside. I’m talking about apologetics, christian writers, commentators. I’m sure you’re aware that there is a very wide variety of ideas on any religious subject. So, what I mean is we look for “confirmation” to satisfy our desires.

I hope that answers your first question.
Your second one, I must admit, I do not understand.

I was just asking you to explain what you meant in your post I quoted.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Spoiler alert: that's not going to happen.

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Rev 20:10

As for your great hope...spoiler alert:

“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels" Matt 25:41

“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” Matt 13:49-50

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death" Rev 21:8

You cannot look at a portrait and magnify one part to the exclusion of everything else, otherwise you will not see the whole picture. Yes, the Bible does say that God desires all to come to repentance - but that has to be understood in context with the rest of the Bible, letting scripture interpret scripture.

As Christians, we should have biblical hopes - not unbiblical hopes.

Thanks for straightening me out kiddo.

 

[Sam Saved by Grace]

Thanks for straightening me out kiddo.

Now that was condescending.

It wasn't my intention to merely straighten you out. There are a lot of falsehoods out there and as Christians we have to be on guard at all times. There are baby Christians on sites like these, and we have to be careful with what we toss out there. This is a Christian forum restricted to Christians. We all have to be willing to straighten one another out, and like it or not, you were veering off into dangerous waters with such talk.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Now that was condescending.

It wasn't my intention to merely straighten you out. There are a lot of falsehoods out there and as Christians we have to be on guard at all times. There are baby Christians on sites like these, and we have to be careful with what we toss out there. This is a Christian forum restricted to Christians. We all have to be willing to straighten one another out, and like it or not, you were veering off into dangerous waters with such talk.

Thank goodness you came along to fix the problem.

 

[Sam Saved by Grace]

God has a purpose, hidden in eternity. This isn't necessarily the same thing as God's will. For instance, it was not God's will for Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. Yet, it was part of God's eternal purpose - His higher will, so to speak. It was God's will for Pharaoh to let the Children of Israel go immediately - but it was not part of His higher will. It was not God's will for the chosen people to crucify their Messiah - Jesus said, "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing." Matthew 23:37 Yet, it was part of God's higher will - His eternal purpose - for Jesus to die. Judas was not doing God's will when he sold Jesus for a few silver coins - yet it a sense, he was.

All throughout the Bible, we see this. God has a will, and man has a responsibility. Man responds as he will to God's will. But beyond and above all things - hidden away with the Father - is the sovereign purpose of God. And hidden with the Father are the names of those chosen from the foundation of the world, to be given to the Lord Jesus Christ. And when all things have run their course, these, and only these, will be shown to belong to Christ. And this is the will of God.

 

[Rescued One]

God is "not willing that any should perish but rather that all should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3.

God also "predicts" that in the end it will turn out that it is the "many" in Matt 7 that are lost and only the "few" that are saved.

Is 5:4 God says He did everything He could to save all the lost - and yet many are still lost.

So Satan is too strong for God? How does that make any sense?

God "gets what he wants" in the big picture because in Rev 21 we have no sin, no devil, and no wicked. Only the saints are left and all the wicked destroyed.

Are you telling us He wants ony the few to be saved?
According to you, God wants the wicked to be destroyed. Why didn't He save them and make them holy?

The big picture result - is a perfect sinless universe in harmony with God - but getting there is messy and does not include God "not so loving the World".

I don't understand this comment.

 

[Soyeong]

Joseph's dream:

Matthew 1 NIV
18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).

24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

John 3
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

That's a bit to think about, no? Whose deeds are evil?

It is possible to want two mutually exclusive things, such as God wanting everyone to be saved while also wanting everyone to freely choose Him.

 

[Rescued One]

It is possible to want two mutually exclusive things, such as God wanting everyone to be saved while also wanting everyone to freely choose Him.

Is Satan Powerless?

“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

 

[Soyeong]

Is Satan Powerless?

“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

I said nothing to suggest that Satan is powerless.

 

[Rescued One]

I said nothing to suggest that Satan is powerless.

If satan is after you, and you are undecided, how do you choose God? Do you just take a guess?

 

[Sam Saved by Grace]

Consider the following:

Were the brothers of Joseph doing the will of God when they sold Joseph into slavery?
Was Judas doing the will of God when he betrayed the Son of God?
Were the Pharisees doing the will of God when they caused Jesus to be crucified?

The answer to all three questions is both "yes", and, "no".

The Bible teaches both God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. In the case of Joseph's brothers, it is written, “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive." Rest assured that the sons of Jacob were not doing God's will in the sense that they committed evil. Had they instead lived their life in submission to God ("not my will, but Your will be done"), they never would have sold Joseph into slavery. Likewise, had Judas lived in submission to God's will, he never would have betrayed Christ. Had the Pharisees lived in submission to the will of God, they never would have had Christ crucified. What they all intended for evil, God intended for good.

The Bible says that "God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent". If each person on earth were doing the will of God, everyone would deny themselves, repent of sin, and receive Christ as their Savior and Lord. But people do not. They have other intentions. But ultimately, God has an intention - to save a people for Himself.