Does God want to save the world but can't? Can you prevent Him from carrying out His will?

[The Liturgist]

Is He omnipotent?

Yes, although in keeping with the ideal of apophatic theology I would rather say that God is completely unconstrained, unbound and uncircumscribed and unlimited in power, perfection, position and knowledge, being a limitless sea of being and the fullness of all perfections in their ultimate greatness, indeed, being love and perfection rather than merely having love and perfection. And we are united to God through Christ Jesus, who is of one essence with the Father and at the same time completely human, hypostatically uniting in Himself our created and finite human nature with the uncreated and unbindable divine nature. This is how we are saved, because our faith in Him unites us with His church and the grace of God the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity, who we receive when we are joined to the mystical Body of Christ, which is the Christian Church of all the faithful.

 

[The Liturgist]

BobRyan said: ↑
God sovereignly ordained that free will should exist

Mark Quayle said: ↑
Chapter and verse, please.



We've been through these before. What I'm asking is for a verse —or even a passage— that says God sovereignly ordained that free will should exist.

I think @BobRyan provided that.

 

[The Liturgist]

They are dead. If you don't think so, please tell me where they are.

2 Corinthians 6:2
2 For he says,
“In a favorable time I listened to you,
and in a day of salvation I have helped you.”
Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

Is there yet another opportunity to choose salvation after death?

Our Lord said “I will have mercy on who I will have mercy.” Scripture does imply Judas is in a bad way, but we don’t know who will be saved.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I think @BobRyan provided that.

What —are we voting here?

He provided scriptural support for choice, even for will, perhaps, but not even freewill, and certainly not for what I asked for: Scripture saying that "God sovereignly ordained that free will should exist" (His words in his original assertion.)

 

[BobRyan]

What —are we voting here?

He provided scriptural support for choice, even for will, perhaps, but not even freewill, and certainly not for what I asked for: Scripture saying that "God sovereignly ordained that free will should exist" (His words in his original assertion.)

Those who believe that God is sovereign (like I believe He is ) consider that nothing can exist that God does not provide for -- Lucifer only "exists" because God created him, and the will of an individual to act against God's purpose for that individual cannot exist unless God provides it.

Free will by definition means that the person is free to choose to act in accordance with God's will for that person or against it.

When Jesus said "How I WANTED... but you would not" Matt 23,
When we appeal to the Lost with "We BEG YOU.." rather than "we beg God..." 2Cor 5
When in Luke 7 the pharisees "rejected God's purpose for THEM"
When God "is not WILLING that any should perish" and yet many do perish - 2 Peter 3.

Then we see the proof of free will

"I STAND at the door and KNOCK, if anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I will come in" Rev 3.

Of course... you too have free will... you do not need to choose to accept the evidence from these scriptures if you do not wish to. Yet I also have free will and can choose expose this flaw in Calvinism via "sola scriptura" testing if I choose to... and I do choose it.

 

[BobRyan]

Not so. Arminians teach prevenient grace that isn't saving grace.

all grace is saving grace. But no grace forces the will so that the person must be saved.

Matt 11 "Come unto Me ALL who are weary... I will give you rest" -- that is "saving grace for ALL - even though it does not mind-zap all so that all are forced to come to Christ.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Those who believe that God is sovereign (like I believe He is ) consider that nothing can exist that God does not provide for -- Lucifer only "exists" because God created him, and the will of an individual to act against God's purpose for that individual cannot exist unless God provides it.

Free will by definition means that the person is free to choose to act in accordance with God's will for that person or against it.

When Jesus said "How I WANTED... but you would not" Matt 23,
When we appeal to the Lost with "We BEG YOU.." rather than "we beg God..." 2Cor 5
When in Luke 7 the pharisees "rejected God's purpose for THEM"
When God "is not WILLING that any should perish" and yet many do perish - 2 Peter 3.

Then we see the proof of free will

"I STAND at the door and KNOCK, if anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I will come in" Rev 3.

Of course... you too have free will... you do not need to choose to accept the evidence from these scriptures if you do not wish to. Yet I also have free will and can choose expose this flaw in Calvinism via "sola scriptura" testing if I choose to... and I do choose it.

That is not the freewill most mean by it: "Uncaused choice", nor even the first half of Google's chosen dictionary's meaning: "The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate". The second half is a little more accurate: "The ability to act at one's own discretion". Calvinism does not deny actual (real) choice, does not deny behaving according to one's own will. In fact, it insists on it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

all grace is saving grace.

Hardly. Whether we are aware of it or not, it is by grace that we do not all fully descend into the depths of depravity. There is such a thing as common grace, and it is not the same thing as saving grace.

 

[The Liturgist]

What —are we voting here?

He provided scriptural support for choice, even for will, perhaps, but not even freewill, and certainly not for what I asked for: Scripture saying that "God sovereignly ordained that free will should exist" (His words in his original assertion.)

So Mark, I need to apologize because I did not quite understand how specific a text you were looking for. I was impressed by what @BobRyan offered in this case - usually, BobRyan and I are sharply divided, but in this case, I really felt like he provided a compelling set of texts indicative of free will.

However, to my knowledge, you would be entirely correct in asserting that Scripture does not explicitly deny determinism or declare the sovereign ordination of the existence of free will; if it did, Calvinism, Zwinglianism, Anglicanism and Lutheranism, all of which are either deterministic or feature determinist theological schools of thought, would have developed along a different trajectory.

Calvinism and non-Calvinist Protestantism, such as the Jacobus Arminius and the Remonstrants, John Wesley and the Methodists (these sound amusingly like the names of dance bands from the 1950s and 60s), non-Calvinist Southern Baptists, Free Will Baptists, and others, are all Sola Scriptura, and have all tried to prove their position using scripture and the result is a theological deadlock. I think the matter can only be settled using Patristics and Church Tradition, but even then, this won’t satisfy most Calvinists, and Calvinist knowledge of Patristics is high, indeed, the term consensus patrum is of Calvinist origin, although I would argue the Patristic witness becomes less Determinist if we focus more on the Greek and Syriac Fathers and less on Latin Fathers, St. Augustine in particular, and of those Latin and Western fathers we keep in the picture, we stress St. John Cassian and St. Irenaeus of Lyons.

 

[The Liturgist]

Those who believe that God is sovereign (like I believe He is ) consider that nothing can exist that God does not provide for -- Lucifer only "exists" because God created him, and the will of an individual to act against God's purpose for that individual cannot exist unless God provides it.

Free will by definition means that the person is free to choose to act in accordance with God's will for that person or against it.

When Jesus said "How I WANTED... but you would not" Matt 23,
When we appeal to the Lost with "We BEG YOU.." rather than "we beg God..." 2Cor 5
When in Luke 7 the pharisees "rejected God's purpose for THEM"
When God "is not WILLING that any should perish" and yet many do perish - 2 Peter 3.

Then we see the proof of free will

"I STAND at the door and KNOCK, if anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I will come in" Rev 3.

Of course... you too have free will... you do not need to choose to accept the evidence from these scriptures if you do not wish to. Yet I also have free will and can choose expose this flaw in Calvinism via "sola scriptura" testing if I choose to... and I do choose it.

I don’t think these verses are enough to negate the Calvinist proof texts. I think a deadlock exists, unless we resort to Tradition, focusing on the beliefs of the Roman Catholics, Moravians, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrians. The Waldensians won’t help much, because while they recently merged with the Methodists in Italy, there are Calvinist Methodists like George Whitefield, and the Waldensians embraced Reformed Theology when granted refuge in Switzerland, and this was a group that had endured mass martyrdom for their beliefs, so I doubt they would just capitulate to Calvin on any manner they actually cared about to secure their own survival - they clearly trusted only in God for that (and He delivered).

 

[Mark Quayle]

So Mark, I need to apologize because I did not quite understand how specific a text you were looking for. I was impressed by what @BobRyan offered in this case - usually, BobRyan and I are sharply divided, but in this case, I really felt like he provided a compelling set of texts indicative of free will.

However, to my knowledge, you would be entirely correct in asserting that Scripture does not explicitly deny determinism or declare the sovereign ordination of the existence of free will; if it did, Calvinism, Zwinglianism, Anglicanism and Lutheranism, all of which are either deterministic or feature determinist theological schools of thought, would have developed along a different trajectory.

Calvinism and non-Calvinist Protestantism, such as the Jacobus Arminius and the Remonstrants, John Wesley and the Methodists (these sound amusingly like the names of dance bands from the 1950s and 60s), non-Calvinist Southern Baptists, Free Will Baptists, and others, are all Sola Scriptura, and have all tried to prove their position using scripture and the result is a theological deadlock. I think the matter can only be settled using Patristics and Church Tradition, but even then, this won’t satisfy most Calvinists, and Calvinist knowledge of Patristics is high, indeed, the term consensus patrum is of Calvinist origin, although I would argue the Patristic witness becomes less Determinist if we focus more on the Greek and Syriac Fathers and less on Latin Fathers, St. Augustine in particular, and of those Latin and Western fathers we keep in the picture, we stress St. John Cassian and St. Irenaeus of Lyons.

Thank you.

As it sits with me, in some ways many Calvinists are too rigid, trusting in codified statements etc, and in other ways they don't go far enough. But (I think) the majority of them, like myself, whatever their preferences and understandings, they hold strongly to certain main things, which to their (our) logic means these things must be so, and then the implications begin:

Like this: Among these things are the anchors that mostly all denominations hold dear and absolute; among them: Absolute sovereignty of God, Gospel of Grace through Faith, impotence of man —but here the problems begin. They look at us and say, "But that means we are not responsible", and we respond, "No, that is how much above us is his sovereignty." And so it goes...

 

[com7fy8]

Does God want to save the world but can't?

God is saving, while God is processing evil to its own place.

That doesn't answer the question.

I meant to give you what you can apply to answer your question.

God is saving people; therefore, He is able to save the world > if He can save one person, He can save everyone, because He is almighty to save.

But He is using certain people as vessels to help to transport Satan's evil spirit to hell. So, He is using a number of humans for this purpose. So, I would say it is not relevant if He wants to save the whole world or not; because He is not going to. He is using different humans in different ways.

Can you prevent Him from carrying out His will?

He is doing what He is able to do.

And I guess I should have also said He is doing what He chooses to do; so, therefore, no one and nothing can stop Him from what He chooses to do. And so, this means you can not prevent Him from doing His will.

Is He omnipotent?

yes

But this is limited. God is all-powerful, but incapable of doing evil, and I mean what James 1:13 says. He can not cause a human to do evil, I think James means. So, I guess we could say God is omnipotent, meaning He has all power for doing what is the best good, plus He is succeeding in doing the very best which is possible.

But He is not powerful the way Satan is, meaning He is not of cruel and selfish and unloving power.

 

[Mark Quayle]

But He is using certain people as vessels to help to transport Satan's evil spirit to hell.

Huh? Where do you get this?

 

[com7fy8]

But He is using certain people as vessels to help to transport Satan's evil spirit to hell.

Huh? Where do you get this?

There is no scripture which directly says this, as far as I know. But it seems to fit with a number of scriptures.

Romans 9:21 says God is or Potter who has made vessels for honor and vessels for dishonor > Romans 9:21.

So, what would go into a vessel for dishonor?

"the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" > in Ephesians 2:2.

Satan's spirit of selfishness and pride and unforgiveness and lusts and abusive anger is vile and filthy. So, God has hell as the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone . . . His place for containing Satan's nasty vile stuff . . . and its containers who include his angels and his children.

There are humans with Satanic stuff in them. And it is going to hell so it will not be on the new earth where God's children will be.

God does not just let Satanic stuff be anywhere and everywhere, but the spirit of evil with its things is organized in vessels on their way to where it will be kept for eternity; it will be in control of fire, since Satan and his are so stubborn that only fire can contain and control them and their stuff.

So, of course, in case anyone objects to this, one may trust and submit to Jesus and become a vessel, instead, of all the good of God's own love in us.

 

[BobRyan]

I don’t think these verses are enough to negate the Calvinist proof texts.

Depends on whether the details get dismissed or not in these texts. #25

...non-Calvinist Southern Baptists, Free Will Baptists, and others, are all Sola Scriptura, and have all tried to prove their position using scripture and the result is a theological deadlock. I think the matter can only be settled using Patristics and Church Tradition, .

We also get that a lot when any doctrine is brought up where we differ with Catholics -- they always claim we should not rely so much on the Bible and look more for the traditions of man to solve it.

But a lot of us prefer the Bible "anyway".

Christ points out that there are a great many places where tradition contradicts scripture Mark 7:7-13

 

[BobRyan]

Hardly. Whether we are aware of it or not, it is by grace that we do not all fully descend into the depths of depravity. There is such a thing as common grace, and it is not the same thing as saving grace.

parsing grace is not a doctrine found in scripture. God's grace provides life and in all cases is saving grace. But saving grace never mind-zaps or robotizes - so the person always has the free will option of rejecting.

 

[BobRyan]

That is not the freewill most mean by it: "Uncaused choice", nor even the first half of Google's chosen dictionary's meaning: "The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate". The second half is a little more accurate:

Even so - God cancels the non-choice result of depravity - even by Calvinist standards - when He supernaturally draws all mankind to Himself. This enables that free will choice where one may choose the gospel and another may choose not to accept the gospel. They have the free will to make that choice. In the same way one can choose eat only pizza or eat only raw pant based diet.

Both of them say they are eating to live - but that does not matter - it is a free will choice all the same.

 

[Mark Quayle]

parsing grace is not a doctrine found in scripture. God's grace provides life and in all cases is saving grace. But saving grace never mind-zaps or robotizes - so the person always has the free will option of rejecting.

Lol, are you equating mind-zapping with roboticizing?

Regeneration is by the Grace of God. New mind, new heart. I don't recall being asked for my permission. I do recall realizing I want to be with him more than anything else.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Even so - God cancels the non-choice result of depravity - even by Calvinist standards - when He supernaturally draws all mankind to Himself. This enables that free will choice where one may choose the gospel and another may choose not to accept the gospel. They have the free will to make that choice. In the same way one can choose eat only pizza or eat only raw pant based diet.

Both of them say they are eating to live - but that does not matter - it is a free will choice all the same.

Yet, you can't show that construction from Scripture. It is forced.

 

[Sam Saved by Grace]

God is completely sovereign - all things are ordained by Him, and all things are to His eternal glory. Nothing that was, is, or will ever be is contrary to His eternal purposes. Nothing can be done that God Himself does not decree.

In the temporal sense - the here and now - God has shown His good will toward everyone in that the gospel is being freely preached to all. And God does not will, in the here and now, that any should perish. Today is the day of salvation.

Ultimately, however, once God brings out His people, those who were not predestined for salvation from before the creation of the world will be cast into the lake of fire.

And all things are to the glory of God.