Does God want to save the world but can't? Can you prevent Him from carrying out His will?

[Rescued One]

Joseph's dream:

Matthew 1 NIV
18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).

24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

John 3
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

That's a bit to think about, no? Whose deeds are evil?

 

[BobRyan]

John 3
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

good text.

1 John 4:14 "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD"
1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

Isaiah 5:4 "What MORE Was there to do than that which I have already done? Why then when I expected good fruit did it produce bad?"

Free will.... sovereignly ordained by God "Whosoever will may come" -- by His supernaturally "drawing All mankind unto him" John 12:32

 

[Rescued One]

good text.

1 John 4:14 "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD"
1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

Isaiah 5:4 "What MORE Was there to do than that which I have already done? Why then when I expected good fruit did it produce bad?"

Free will.... sovereignly ordained by God "Whosoever will may come" -- by His supernaturally "drawing All mankind unto him" John 12:32

Someone needs to read Isaiah 5:4 in Hebrew. Is the SDA teaching that God is not omnisicient?

Is God going to save the Pharisees and Judas Iscariot and Hitler?

 

[BobRyan]

Someone needs to read Isaiah 5:4 in Hebrew. Is the SDA teaching that God is not omnisicient?

God knows everything... still we have this --

Gen 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of mankind was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. 6 So the Lord was sorry that He had made mankind on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 Then the Lord said, “I will wipe out mankind whom I have created from the face of the land; mankind, and animals as well, and crawling things, and the birds of the sky. For I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

Is God going to save the Pharisees and Judas Iscariot and Hitler?

It is only the "FEW" of Matt 7 that end up with eternal life -- but it is not because God did not do everything He could to save the rest.

God sovereignly ordained that free will should exist, He works within the constraints He Himself sovereignly selects. He has the power to mind-zap all and never have a fall of Lucifer, never have a fall of 1/3 of the Angels of heaven, never have the fall of Adam and Eve, never have the Flood never have the cross. IF He were willing to be simply be a mind-zap god of robots He always had the power to select that option. He chose against it.

Which is how we get this result

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

Isaiah 5:4 "What MORE Was there to do than that which I have already done? Why then when I expected good fruit did it produce bad?"

Matt 23:
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is the One who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

 

[.Jeremiah.]

Joseph's dream:

Matthew 1 NIV
18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).

24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

John 3
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

That's a bit to think about, no? Whose deeds are evil?

John is wonderful.

And great question. Thank you.

Evil people have evil deeds.

Sadly, ALL people are evil, all the time, everywhere.

Unless they let the Lord in their life.

Why do I say that?

Well, ONLY the Lord is good. So, we can be good, only through the Lord.

Why do I say that?

Luke 18:19

Now then, an evil person cannot see the light (wisdom/truth)

Because they run from it.

That is why so very many people (christians) destroy the meaning of the Word. Since they cannot see (blind) the truth, they conjure up their own ideas, based upon the evil desires within. Evil intentions cause spiritual blindness.

Only the Lord can cure spiritual blindness. That’s why he says so OFTEN, if you have eyes, see. He is speaking to those who have spiritual eyes, the ones who CAN see what is being said.

Have you ever had an debate with a christian who refuses to see?
John, there, tells you why they refuse to see. They prefer darkness.
Their life is in darkness. They are blind.

 

[.Jeremiah.]

God knows everything... still we have this --

Gen 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of mankind was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. 6 So the Lord was sorry that He had made mankind on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 Then the Lord said, “I will wipe out mankind whom I have created from the face of the land; mankind, and animals as well, and crawling things, and the birds of the sky. For I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.



It is only the "FEW" of Matt 7 that end up with eternal life -- but it is not because God did not do everything He could to save the rest.

God sovereignly ordained that free will should exist, He works within the constraints He Himself sovereignly selects. He has the power to mind-zap all and never have a fall of Lucifer, never have a fall of 1/3 of the Angels of heaven, never have the fall of Adam and Eve, never have the Flood never have the cross. IF He were willing to be simply be a mind-zap god of robots He always had the power to select that option. He chose against it.

Which is how we get this result

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

Isaiah 5:4 "What MORE Was there to do than that which I have already done? Why then when I expected good fruit did it produce bad?"

Matt 23:
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is the One who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

The Lord may very well save Judas, Hitler, and everyone else.

But, ONLY IF they turn from evil:

Recognize that we ARE evil. Ask the Lord for help in overcoming the evil. Then go and sin no more. It’s not complicated, but not easy either. Why does religion try to complicate it? (Check my previous post)

This should be a clue exactly WHAT we are being “saved” from.
We are being saved from ourselves. Our inherent evil within.

It’s a shame these simple concepts aren’t taught. If they were, then the “few” in Matthew 7, would be quite a bit more.

 

[Rescued One]

God knows everything... still we have this --

Gen 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of mankind was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. 6 So the Lord was sorry that He had made mankind on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 Then the Lord said, “I will wipe out mankind whom I have created from the face of the land; mankind, and animals as well, and crawling things, and the birds of the sky. For I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.



It is only the "FEW" of Matt 7 that end up with eternal life -- but it is not because God did not do everything He could to save the rest.

God sovereignly ordained that free will should exist, He works within the constraints He Himself sovereignly selects. He has the power to mind-zap all and never have a fall of Lucifer, never have a fall of 1/3 of the Angels of heaven, never have the fall of Adam and Eve, never have the Flood never have the cross. IF He were willing to be simply be a mind-zap god of robots He always had the power to select that option. He chose against it.

Which is how we get this result

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

Isaiah 5:4 "What MORE Was there to do than that which I have already done? Why then when I expected good fruit did it produce bad?"

John 1:11-13

“He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1: 11-13).

John 12:32 says, "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself". What does, "draw all men to myself", mean?

If they aren't His sheep, they go somewhere else. (John 10)

A person's own will isn't capable of doing God's will without divine intervention.

 

[Rescued One]

The Lord may very well save Judas, Hitler, and everyone else.

But, ONLY IF they turn from evil:

They are dead. If you don't think so, please tell me where they are.

2 Corinthians 6:2
2 For he says,
“In a favorable time I listened to you,
and in a day of salvation I have helped you.”
Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

Is there yet another opportunity to choose salvation after death?

 

[.Jeremiah.]

They are dead. If you don't think so, please tell me where they are.

2 Corinthians 6:2
2 For he says,
“In a favorable time I listened to you,
and in a day of salvation I have helped you.”
Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

Is there yet another opportunity to choose salvation after death?

Wow, incredibly narrow thinking.

You KNOW FOR A 100% FACT, that they did NOT repent before death?
I surely do not. And I don’t know where they are. Trying reading all the words I wrote before jumping to conclusions please.

Who made you God? Maybe YOU should tell ME where they are.
You seem to have made a judgment on the lives of people you don’t even know.

Nice how you cherry pick what you respond to.

 

[Rescued One]

Wow, incredibly narrow thinking.

You KNOW FOR A 100% FACT, that they did NOT repent before death?
I surely do not. And I don’t know where they are. Trying reading all the words I wrote before jumping to conclusions please.

Who made you God? Maybe YOU should tell ME where they are.
You seem to have made a judgment on the lives of people you don’t even know.

Nice how you cherry pick what you respond to.

Goodness. Be slow to anger instead of attacking another member's character.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God sovereignly ordained that free will should exist

Chapter and verse, please.

 

[com7fy8]

Does God want to save the world but can't? Can you prevent Him from carrying out His will?

God is saving, while God is processing evil to its own place. So, yes indeed He is doing what He is able to do.

 

[com7fy8]

Whose deeds are evil?

I understand that in this quote of Christ, He means the deeds of people who refuse to come to Him.

And I think there is the evil people's character involved in this. It is not only that they do things that are seen to be bad, but their evil nature can make even humanitarian actions evil . . . because of the motive behind them, plus how the evil people then use those actions for their wrong purposes.

So, the main evil about their wrong deeds is their character.

 

[BobRyan]

Chapter and verse, please.

Rev 21:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

2 Cor 5:20 "We BEG YOU on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God"

Rom 11:13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Therefore insofar as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 if somehow I may move my own people to jealousy and save some of them.

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.


John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

Isaiah 5:4 "What MORE Was there to do than that which I have already done? Why then when I expected good fruit did it produce bad?"

Matt 23:
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is the One who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance"

 

[BobRyan]

John 1:11-13

“He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1: 11-13).

John 12:32 says, "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself". What does, "draw all men to myself", mean?

John 6 says no one comes to Christ unless they are supernaturally drawn by God. Then in John 12 it turns out all mankind are supernaturally drawn by God.

But no text says "everyone drawn will come to Christ" - that is the elephant in the living room so to speak.

Even Calvinists will admit that the drawing of God enables all the "Choice" to accept the Gospel that depravity disables.

 

[Rescued One]

John 6 says no one comes to Christ unless they are supernaturally drawn by God. Then in John 12 it turns out all mankind are supernaturally drawn by God.

But no text says "everyone drawn will come to Christ" - that is the elephant in the living room so to speak.

Even Calvinists will admit that the drawing of God enables all the "Choice" to accept the Gospel that depravity disables.

Not so. Arminians teach prevenient grace that isn't saving grace.

 

[Mark Quayle]

BobRyan said: ↑
God sovereignly ordained that free will should exist

Mark Quayle said: ↑
Chapter and verse, please.

Rev 21:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

2 Cor 5:20 "We BEG YOU on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God"

Rom 11:13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Therefore insofar as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 if somehow I may move my own people to jealousy and save some of them.

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.


John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

Isaiah 5:4 "What MORE Was there to do than that which I have already done? Why then when I expected good fruit did it produce bad?"

Matt 23:
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is the One who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance"

We've been through these before. What I'm asking is for a verse —or even a passage— that says God sovereignly ordained that free will should exist.

 

[Rescued One]

God is saving, while God is processing evil to its own place.

That doesn't answer the question.

So, yes indeed He is doing what He is able to do.

Is He omnipotent?

 

[The Liturgist]

Not so. Arminians teach prevenient grace that isn't saving grace.

Arminians, or some non-Calvinists? In what might seem like an enterprise of pedantry, I am seeking to encourage members to clarify which non-Calvinists they are talking about, bearing in mind Jacobus Arminius founded a specific church, the Remonstrants, with specific theology which was different from that of the Methodists, Moravians, Lutherans, Roman Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Quakers, Free Will Baptists, modern Evangelicals, and others who are not doctrinally Calvinist or determinist.

 

[.Jeremiah.]

Goodness. Be slow to anger instead of attacking another member's character.

I don’t attack your character

And no anger, definitely not toward you

Your character has been well advertised