Does God want to save the world but can't? Can you prevent Him from carrying out His will?

Ceallaigh

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On CF.com Universalism is considered Heterodox but can be discussed along with full preterism, annhilationism and a few other peculiar beliefs which are still Nicene-compliant in Controversial Christian Theology, but my understanding that the anti-Nicene heresies of Arianism, Pneumatomacchianism and Gnosticism are now no longer discussed or in the case of J/W Arianism, are limited to Christianity and World Religions, due to past problems of flamewars that happened before I joined.

However, it is my professional opinion as a scholar of theology and the senior presbyter of two conservative High Church Congregationalist parishes that the views expressed by @MMXX are not Universalism but rather represent a hope, also expressed by CS Lewis, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and St. Isaac the Syrian, among others, for Apokatastasis, which is different from stating that Apokatastasis or Universal Salvation is an absolute certainty, which we see for example in The Book of the Bee by Mar Solomon of Akhat, the 13th century Bishop of Basra in the Assyrian Church of the East, which even then is a specimen of apokatastasis and not Universalism.



This is of course a particularly nasty form of Apokatastasis, because, if ome accepts, as I do, the soteriological argument of His Eminence Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, the Greek Orthodox Metropolitan of Diokleia (auxilliary bishop in the UK) and Emeritus Professor of Eastern Christian Studies at Oxford, the soteriological argument that the one thing God cannot do is force us to love Him, because of the mutual synergia that true love entails, and in this case it appears that Mar Solomon believed it could be coerced, but still, his soteriology quoted above, which I should note is not official Assyrian doctrine, is still apokotastasis and not universalism per se, whereas the universalist blindly argues that everyone is saved, whereas those who argued for apokatastasis ranged from pointing out, as CS Lewis said, that the doors of Hell are locked on the inside, to arguing in the manner of Mar Solomon that given the enormous amount of time, a restoration of creation to its original glory or a newer and more perfect condition becomes something of an inevitability.

Thus, one can identify a subtle but important distinction between the accepted belief of some church fathers in apokatasis, and the monergistic imposition of salvation even on misotheists, who Byzantine theologians argued would experience the all-consuming fire that is God’s infinite love as pure agony.

Having thought it over I'll alter my original comment some.
Throughout scripture it says that God wants to save the world.
My belief is that in the long run God will get whatever He wants, in all things, whatever the outcome may be. As to CS Lewis' comment, I grew up with John MacArthur (whom some refer to as hyper-Calvinist) as the family pastor. And what I remember hearing when I was a kid, is that if a bus headed for Heaven drove down to Hell to pick up passengers, no one there would get onboard.
 
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Sam Saved by Grace

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Having thought it over I'll alter my original comment some.
Throughout scripture it says that God wants to save the world.
My belief is that in the long run God will get whatever He wants, in all things, whatever the outcome may be. As to CS Lewis' comment, I grew up with John MacArthur (whom some refer to as hyper-Calvinist) as the family pastor. And what I remember hearing when I was a kid, is that if a bus headed for Heaven drove down to Hell to pick up passengers, no one there would get onboard.
The Bible is clear that not all will be saved, that the wicked will be cast into hell, and that their torment lasts forever. The Bible couldn't be clearer. So you can believe and hope God to be a liar all you want but nothing changes the fact that only those who accept Christ in this life inherent eternal life.
 
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Ceallaigh

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The Bible is clear that not all will be saved, that the wicked will be cast into hell, and that their torment lasts forever. The Bible couldn't be clearer. So you can believe and hope God to be a liar all you want but nothing changes the fact that only those who accept Christ in this life inherent eternal life.

See you're still on the attack and making accusations. This time around accusing me of hoping God is a liar. I was listening to MacArthur before you were born and I still do. Being a Calvinist doesn't mean being rude aggressive judgmental and flaming people. As I said before, my belief is that God will get what God wants. There's nothing in that statement that makes God out to be a liar and neither is it heresy, so there's no need for melodrama on your part. I think you should let what The Liturgist said to you sink in some.
 
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Mark Quayle

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If that were the case then when I quote these texts -- there would be nothing but affirmation and applause from Calvinist readers.



1 John 4:14 "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD"
1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

Isaiah 5:4 "What MORE Was there to do than that which I have already done? Why then when I expected good fruit did it produce bad?"

Free will.... sovereignly ordained by God "Whosoever will may come" -- by His supernaturally "drawing All mankind unto him" John 12:32


When Jesus said "How I WANTED... but you would not" Matt 23,
When we appeal to the Lost with "We BEG YOU.." rather than "we beg God..." 2Cor 5
When in Luke 7 the pharisees "rejected God's purpose for THEM"
When God "is not WILLING that any should perish" and yet many do perish - 2 Peter 3.

Then we see the proof of free will

"I STAND at the door and KNOCK, if anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I will come in" Rev 3.
You've lost me. I thought we were working on you showing me that Scripture does say that God sovereignly ordained that freewill exist.
 
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Ceallaigh

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I am sure you are well aware that Paul Washer is a Calvinist and preaches hellfire. And yet, you quote him.

I see your tendency to pick and choose only what you like isn't limited to just the Bible.

You are a universalist. Universalism is heresy. It is contrary to orthodox Christianity. As a new member, I wonder how it is that you are allowed to post here.

Let me look at my profile... nope, it says Christian, not universalist. And ironically Calvinism is contrary to Orthodox Christianity.

But from eternity past, God has purposed it that a remnant - a people for Himself - shall be called out and saved. And these elect souls are chosen, predestined to salvation, for His Son Jesus Christ.

Those who are not chosen will be judged fairly. God owes us nothing.

According what I've read by the SDA here, that remnant is them. More irony perhaps.
 
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BobRyan

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You've lost me. I thought we were working on you showing me that Scripture does say that God sovereignly ordained that freewill exist.

I just did - and your speculation that no Calvinists would notice it in those texts - is disproven on this very thread where they have objected to the texts posted.

The point remains.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I just did - and your speculation that no Calvinists would notice it in those texts - is disproven on this very thread where they have objected to the texts posted.

The point remains.
You have not shown me, "God sovereignly ordained that freewill should exist."

You haven't even shown me "free will exists", but that is kinda beside the point. You certainly have not shown that uncaused choice on the part of a human exists.

Also, but beside the point, I would appreciate if you could show me where I speculated that no Calvinist would notice it (whatever 'it' is) in those texts.
 
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Rescued One

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Then we see the proof of free will

"I STAND at the door and KNOCK, if anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I will come in" Rev 3.

No, we don't see free will. Some people are deaf.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
Then we see the proof of free will

"I STAND at the door and KNOCK, if anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I will come in" Rev 3.

1. Christ - stands, and knocks.
2. The person chooses to open or not open the door.
3. IF they open the door - then Christ will come in

No, we don't see free will. Some people are deaf.

That is not what the text says.

It does not say "I stand at the door and knock but you are a cripple"
It does not say "I stand at the door and knock but you are deaf"

Rather the text deals with whether or not the person will open the door.

In Calvinism Christ is inside the door -sometimes-causing the person to hear and open - but no such condition is inserted into the scenario by God himself - it is inserted by Calvinism for Rev 3 on behalf of God.

In Calvinism God's supernatural drawing is sufficient to enable all the choice that depravity disables and John 12:32 says God supernaturally "Draws all" not just "the few of Matt 7"

But credit where credit is due - you took the bold step of at least trying to limit one of the texts in the list to see if it could fit Calvinism.

If that were the case then when I quote these texts -- there would be nothing but affirmation and applause from Calvinist readers.

1 John 4:14 "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD"
1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

Isaiah 5:4 "What MORE Was there to do than that which I have already done? Why then when I expected good fruit did it produce bad?"

Free will.... sovereignly ordained by God "Whosoever will may come" -- by His supernaturally "drawing All mankind unto him" John 12:32


When Jesus said "How I WANTED... but you would not" Matt 23,
When we appeal to the Lost with "We BEG YOU.." rather than "we beg God..." 2Cor 5
When in Luke 7 the pharisees "rejected God's purpose for THEM"
When God "is not WILLING that any should perish" and yet many do perish - 2 Peter 3.

Then we see the proof of free will

"I STAND at the door and KNOCK, if anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I will come in" Rev 3.

Try this one --

Isaiah 5:4 "What MORE Was there to do than that which I have already done? Why then when I expected good fruit did it produce bad?"

How could that one be limited so as to fit Calvinism?
 
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The Liturgist

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Having thought it over I'll alter my original comment some.
Throughout scripture it says that God wants to save the world.
My belief is that in the long run God will get whatever He wants, in all things, whatever the outcome may be. As to CS Lewis' comment, I grew up with John MacArthur (whom some refer to as hyper-Calvinist) as the family pastor. And what I remember hearing when I was a kid, is that if a bus headed for Heaven drove down to Hell to pick up passengers, no one there would get onboard.

John MacArthur apparently plagiarized (unless he gave CS Lewis credit or came up with virtually an identical work on his own) a different work of CS Lewis than the aforementioned commentary with that sermon (Spoilers ahead, although John MacArthur spoit it already I would argue):

The Great Divorce is a novella structured as what I would call a lucid hamartiological dream about human will and divine will in the context of the economy of salvation. It opens with the narrator finding himself in a vast city at dusk, with the narrator walking down street after street, with nary a shop open and no hospitality. As twilight approaches, after what seemed like aeons of walking down deserted city streets, where the houses have a few lights on but are locked and devoid of commerce, he arrives at a square where a bus paimted in bright, heraldic colors, standing in sharp contrast to the drab city, is boarding passengers. Two people in the queue, who are lovers, whose sex is ambiguous (I believe they were intended to represent sodomites, lesbians, and other deviants) decided not to board and walked off, and I believe one or two other people decided not to embark.

The bus departed, and at a certain point between the beginning of the narrative and the bus leaving with the narrator onboard, it is implied and then explicitly stated that the vast, ever darkening city is Hell, that most of the houses are abandoned, because the people loathe each other to the point of instantiating new houses (they can simply will objects into existence) further apart, but inevitably, other residents, seeking isolation from other people, crowd around, and thus the city of perpetual twilight has grown to an enormous size, and the narrators journey to the divine bus stop did take aeons. The residents of Hell were also terrified of the impending nightfall.

The bus, with a Christological or at least Angelic driver, ascends above the ciry into beautiful mountains that one ascends to get to Heaven. There are pine trees, rocky outcroppings and much scenic beauty. The passengers realize they are mere spirits and initially find walking on the solid rock and even blades of grass to be quite painful, but the driver urges them on, saying that as they approach Heaven they will solidify and the going will be easier.

In the next scene, various relatives, friends, and acquaintances of the passengers appear, in some cases being people the passengers had harmed, but who had forgiven them and desired reconciliation and the salvation of the passengers. One by one however, the passengers thought of various reasons, pitiful, worldly excuses as to why they just couldn’t possibly stay and continue on into Heaven, and opt instead to reboard the bus so as to return to Hell. One of the most amusing of these passengers was a liberal clergyman and divinity professor, who could not accept the reality of what was happening despite a former colleague trying very hard to get through to him.

The narrator however instead has a theological discussion with a bushy-eyebrowed Scottish divine, who reveals the narrator is not in fact dead but experiencing a revelation, and refuses to give his name, lest the narrator establish a cult of veneration for the man. Hell is revealed despite its vast size to occupy a tiny point in a crevice on one of several beautiful rocks with moss or lichen growing on one side of them.

So, in a nutshell, the CS Lewis novella The Great Divorce was about a bus which did pick up passengers for Heaven in Hell, after a few walkaways, but all of them, after a look around at the beautiful forests on the outskirts of Heaven, and a meet and greet with deceased fellows, opted to get back on board and return to the gargantuan metropolis of shadows below (that is, they chose to go back to Hell) for reasons of a worldly character which ranged from banal to, in the case of the liberal churchman, ridiculous, from my traditionalist high church perspective, at any rate. The sermon MacArthur preached seems strikingly similar; I would hope he credited CS Lewis if he was aware (I think I saw an allegation of plagiarism against him previously, but I may be thinking of someone else, possibly someone he critiqued...I did greatly appreciate his Strange Fire conference, which was a valid criticism of unusual excesseses in Pentecostal and Charismatic worship.
 
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Ceallaigh

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John MacArthur apparently plagiarized (unless he gave CS Lewis credit or came up with virtually an identical work on his own) a different work of CS Lewis than the aforementioned commentary with that sermon (Spoilers ahead, although John MacArthur spoit it already I would argue):

The Great Divorce is a novella structured as what I would call a lucid hamartiological dream about human will and divine will in the context of the economy of salvation. It opens with the narrator finding himself in a vast city at dusk, with the narrator walking down street after street, with nary a shop open and no hospitality. As twilight approaches, after what seemed like aeons of walking down deserted city streets, where the houses have a few lights on but are locked and devoid of commerce, he arrives at a square where a bus paimted in bright, heraldic colors, standing in sharp contrast to the drab city, is boarding passengers. Two people in the queue, who are lovers, whose sex is ambiguous (I believe they were intended to represent sodomites, lesbians, and other deviants) decided not to board and walked off, and I believe one or two other people decided not to embark.

The bus departed, and at a certain point between the beginning of the narrative and the bus leaving with the narrator onboard, it is implied and then explicitly stated that the vast, ever darkening city is Hell, that most of the houses are abandoned, because the people loathe each other to the point of instantiating new houses (they can simply will objects into existence) further apart, but inevitably, other residents, seeking isolation from other people, crowd around, and thus the city of perpetual twilight has grown to an enormous size, and the narrators journey to the divine bus stop did take aeons. The residents of Hell were also terrified of the impending nightfall.

The bus, with a Christological or at least Angelic driver, ascends above the ciry into beautiful mountains that one ascends to get to Heaven. There are pine trees, rocky outcroppings and much scenic beauty. The passengers realize they are mere spirits and initially find walking on the solid rock and even blades of grass to be quite painful, but the driver urges them on, saying that as they approach Heaven they will solidify and the going will be easier.

In the next scene, various relatives, friends, and acquaintances of the passengers appear, in some cases being people the passengers had harmed, but who had forgiven them and desired reconciliation and the salvation of the passengers. One by one however, the passengers thought of various reasons, pitiful, worldly excuses as to why they just couldn’t possibly stay and continue on into Heaven, and opt instead to reboard the bus so as to return to Hell. One of the most amusing of these passengers was a liberal clergyman and divinity professor, who could not accept the reality of what was happening despite a former colleague trying very hard to get through to him.

The narrator however instead has a theological discussion with a bushy-eyebrowed Scottish divine, who reveals the narrator is not in fact dead but experiencing a revelation, and refuses to give his name, lest the narrator establish a cult of veneration for the man. Hell is revealed despite its vast size to occupy a tiny point in a crevice on one of several beautiful rocks with moss or lichen growing on one side of them.

So, in a nutshell, the CS Lewis novella The Great Divorce was about a bus which did pick up passengers for Heaven in Hell, after a few walkaways, but all of them, after a look around at the beautiful forests on the outskirts of Heaven, and a meet and greet with deceased fellows, opted to get back on board and return to the gargantuan metropolis of shadows below (that is, they chose to go back to Hell) for reasons of a worldly character which ranged from banal to, in the case of the liberal churchman, ridiculous, from my traditionalist high church perspective, at any rate. The sermon MacArthur preached seems strikingly similar; I would hope he credited CS Lewis if he was aware (I think I saw an allegation of plagiarism against him previously, but I may be thinking of someone else, possibly someone he critiqued...I did greatly appreciate his Strange Fire conference, which was a valid criticism of unusual excesseses in Pentecostal and Charismatic worship.

I wasn't talking about a sermon I heard preached. It was just something I heard in passing back in the 70s. Maybe it was Lewis being quoted which would be why I made that connection. Back then my experience with Lewis was limited to Narnia.
 
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The Liturgist

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Judaism was the nation religion started by our Lord. He is not condemning His own religion but rather tradition, and He uses Moses to condemn them. His condemnation is not of Moses or the OT or the Judaism nation-religion our Lord started at Sinai.

7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

The contrast is between Judaism (Moses said, Commandment of God, Word of God .. i.e. O.T. ) on one hand -
-- vs--
(Tradition of men, your tradition, you say, tradition handed down, many such things as that)

Our Lord does not critique Holy Tradition, for example, the contents of the Old Testament, which are, like those of the New, a Tradition, but rather the man-made traditions of the Scribes and Pharisees, such as the use of broad phylacteries, which were, following the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, written down in the Mishnah and then compiled by the Geonim into the Babylonian Talmud and the less important Jerusalem Talmud. The Babylonian Talmud in turn is the primary source of Law and rule of Faith for Rabinnical Jews today, and has been ascribed layers upon layers of alleged esoteric meanings, which are used as justification for the quasi-Gnostic occult system of Kabbalah and other mystical doctrines. There is also a wacky part of the Talmud in an otherwise remarkably dull tractate on inheritance or somesuch, which various Rabbis tell some pretty wild stories about giant fish and whales, including one narrative in which a particular Rabbi and his fellow sailors landed on a small island, with palm trees, which woke up the massive whale the island had formed atop, prompting it to dive and nearly drowning them. And later Judaica has the Golem, a sort of clay robot the Rabbis of Prague could activate by placing a carefully inscribed passage of the Torah in its mouth. It is allegedly still in the attic of the synagogue in Prague, along with all of the old Torah scrolls which are worn out and no longer kosher, but the Talmudic law prohibits disposing of them...

The Karaite Jews, like the extinct Sadducees, who may have inspired them, although there is no direct connection, ostensibly adhere to something like Sola Scriptura, although like Protestants, they have as a community, using their Kalaam, or method of logical analysis, deduced certain doctrines which disagree radically with Rabbinical Jews and Christians, for example, their denial of the existence of the devil and their belief the Serpent in the Garden of Eden was an uncommonly devious and intelligent snake.

These are traditions of men, of Pharisaical and probably Sadducean origin, although who knows if the Sadducees believed in the devil; given they denied the resurrection however, it doesn’t seem like it would make much difference.

In contrast, some unwritten Christian traditions which I think are important are the general prohibition on polygamy (not just for Episkopoi as stated by St. Paul in his epistle to Timothy), the prohibition on gladiatorial combat, the historic hymns, some of which date back to the fourth century, and some of these ancient hymns are even used by the SDA, and while were on the subject, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, the beautiful Antiochene-type liturgical text which the SDA choir in Ukraine recorded a setting of (and I assume they are using a version of it for worship in some churches, probably similar to the version used by the Ukrainian Lutherans or the version used by the Georgian Evangelical Baptist Church). And of course, the New Testament canon itself, which was finalized after much debate by St. Athanasius in the 360s, and slowly propagated through the church, being adopted by Pope Gelasius and the Church of Rome in the 490s.
 
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The Liturgist

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I wasn't talking about a sermon I heard preached. It was just something I heard in passing back in the 70s. Maybe it was Lewis being quoted which would be why I made that connection. Back then my experience with Lewis was limited to Narnia.

Ah good, that clarifies it. I have to confess I never enjoyed Narnia, but the Space Trilogy was amazing, and each book was better than the last. Out of the Silent Planet was exquisite, Perelandra, a vision of Paradise on Venus, and That Hideous Strength, a dystopian nightmare in the literal heart of England, with Merlin making an appearance.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Ah good, that clarifies it. I have to confess I never enjoyed Narnia, but the Space Trilogy was amazing, and each book was better than the last. Out of the Silent Planet was exquisite, Perelandra, a vision of Paradise on Venus, and Thad Hideous Strength, a dystopian nightmare in the literal heart of England, with Merlin making an appearance.

I read the first two in the early 80s but never got to around to the third. I've read some of Screwtape Letters and listened to most of Mere Christianity on audiobook. I'm wondering if maybe Lewis softened depictions of hell compaired to say Jonathan Edwards.
 
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The Liturgist

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I read the first two in the early 80s but never got to around to the third. I've read some of Screwtape Letters and listened to most of Mere Christianity on audiobook. I'm wondering if maybe Lewis softened depictions of hell compaired to say Jonathan Edwards.

I am pretty sure everyone softened depictions of Hell compared to Jonathan Edwards. ;)
 
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Ceallaigh

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John is wonderful.

And great question. Thank you.

Evil people have evil deeds.

Sadly, ALL people are evil, all the time, everywhere.

Unless they let the Lord in their life.

Why do I say that?

Well, ONLY the Lord is good. So, we can be good, only through the Lord.

Why do I say that?

Luke 18:19

Now then, an evil person cannot see the light (wisdom/truth)

Because they run from it.

That is why so very many people (christians) destroy the meaning of the Word. Since they cannot see (blind) the truth, they conjure up their own ideas, based upon the evil desires within. Evil intentions cause spiritual blindness.

Only the Lord can cure spiritual blindness. That’s why he says so OFTEN, if you have eyes, see. He is speaking to those who have spiritual eyes, the ones who CAN see what is being said.

Have you ever had an debate with a christian who refuses to see?

John, there, tells you why they refuse to see. They prefer darkness.
Their life is in darkness. They are blind.

What are you referring to when you say Christians conjure up their own ideas, based upon the evil desires within? What subject of debate are you talking about where a Christian refuses to see?
 
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Ceallaigh

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Hardly. Whether we are aware of it or not, it is by grace that we do not all fully descend into the depths of depravity. There is such a thing as common grace, and it is not the same thing as saving grace.

What do you mean by common grace?
 
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Mark Quayle

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What do you mean by common grace?
Here's a pretty decent description, from Wikipedia:

Common grace is a theological concept in Protestant Christianity, developed primarily in Nineteenth and Twentieth Century Reformed/Calvinistic thought, referring to the grace of God that is either common to all humankind, or common to everyone within a particular sphere of influence (limited only by unnecessary cultural factors). It is common because its benefits are experienced by, or intended for, the whole human race without distinction between one person and another. It is grace because it is undeserved and sovereignly bestowed by God. In this sense, it is distinguished from the Calvinistic understanding of special or saving grace, which extends only to the elect,[note 1] those whom God has chosen to redeem.

Common grace - Wikipedia
 
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Mark Quayle

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I read the first two in the early 80s but never got to around to the third. I've read some of Screwtape Letters and listened to most of Mere Christianity on audiobook. I'm wondering if maybe Lewis softened depictions of hell compaired to say Jonathan Edwards.
I've always taken CS Lewis' depictions of hell, (also such works as Screwtape), to be about human nature, particularly human nature as depraved (and the antithesis), and not so much about the place itself or the devil himself.

He once said (I don't even nearly have the quote) that the insight he is attributed with, in what he wrote, was not particularly wise or insightful concerning other people, but was mostly from introspection.
 
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Sam Saved by Grace

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See you're still on the attack and making accusations. This time around accusing me of hoping God is a liar. I was listening to MacArthur before you were born and I still do. Being a Calvinist doesn't mean being rude aggressive judgmental and flaming people. As I said before, my belief is that God will get what God wants. There's nothing in that statement that makes God out to be a liar and neither is it heresy, so there's no need for melodrama on your part. I think you should let what The Liturgist said to you sink in some.
The doctrines of grace are not contrary to orthodox Christianity.

And when you say that you merely hope God will get what He wants, you aren't being completely forthright.

You have said, flat out, that you believe God will "get what He wants". And you have defined "what God wants" to be the salvation of every human soul who ever lived. If I am mistaken, please clarify by restating your position.

My assertion is that such a belief is completely heretical, as it is contrary to what the apostles taught and believed, and what has been handed down to us in the New Testament.

What about the fallen angels? Do you hope or believe they will be restored? Or are they eternally damned?
 
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